Advice on Rear Roadini Rim + shifting issues

[Catherina Gioino]

Hi everyone,

I bought a 50cm Roadini a few months ago from someone who had built it up himself and barely ridden it, and I love it– I started getting things in orange just to match the RBW orange that leaves heads turning on my rides. After less than 1000 miles on it (mostly in the city, plus some relatively tame trail riding) I discovered multiple cracks on my rear rim. The rims are Velocity A23’s with White Industries hubs, and the cracks are around a couple of spokes. Pictures below. 

Complicating this is the fact that I’ve been having issues with my shifting. It’s set up with Campagnolo front and rear derailleurs, 10 speed chain and 2x8 gearing. The front derailleur doesn’t shift into the small chainring, and when it does manage to shift, it jumps off or gets stuck in between the two chainrings. Main issue seems to be some combination of too-thin chain being incompatible with older chainrings. Pictures of drivetrain for reference below. 

I want to keep the White Industries hub, but I more pressingly want to fix my shifting problems at the same time as getting a new rear wheel. I could have a new wheel built up around the hub, using a Shimano freehub, which would allow me to shift to Shimano and hopefully fix my shifting problems (but I’d have to replace the entire drivetrain), or I could buy an entirely new wheel. 

I’m hoping the group can help me decide what to do.

1. What would you recommend I do since I need a new wheel but also want to fix the shifting? 

2. Maybe someone here has a 700c rear wheel they’re not using that they would be willing to sell. 

[Joe Bernard]

Hi Catherina,

The problem I see with front shifting  - under the assumption your Campy Veloce drivetrain uses indexed Ergo shifters - is the crank isn't designed for that system. The simple/cheaper way to solve this would be to keep everything you have now (while replacing the rim) and add a friction downtube shifter for the front derailleur. It'll work great and look kinda cool, you'll just have one unused paddle on the left brake lever. You can also do this with a left bar-end shifter if you're ok with that look. 

Or if you want to spend some money while keeping the cranks you can swap to Shimano stuff with bar-ends, which retains indexing rear/friction front.

[Joe Bernard]

I think my answer was a little convoluted, I'll try again: 

Those cranks/rings weren't designed for indexing, a thing double rings don't need anyway. With friction you move the derailleur exactly as much as you want and it's almost index-like anyway cuz it's one movement forward and one back. You need a friction shifter!

[Garth]

In regards to the rim first thing is contact Velocity. You didn't say if the previous owner had built it or someone else did, but still, cracking isn't normal, ever and shouldn't be accepted as such. Integrity of the "matter" is normal..... non-integrity ... is not.

What shifters, type of shifting ?

Your gearing by the photo is 2x10, not 2x8.  So you're stuck with a 10 speed chain on a crank whose rings "appear" to be too far apart, for 6/7/8 speed chains. Well, that's not as big a deal as it may seem on paper. In practice is where the rubber meets the road. Does it work , or not ? Screw "the book" ! With friction shifting, technique is everything. If you're just pulling and pushing hard without paying attention, feeling what's happening, sometimes certain combos with throw the chain. Even a "proper on paper" setup can throw a chain. It's not something I can put into words easily other than to say "use finesse" , a light touch. Play with it in a work stand if you have one, or do it around home on the road.

I have on my Bombadil a 44t Surly stainless large ring that is really meant for 1x gears as it has no bevels on the teeth. They say it "can" work with 7/8 speed chains with multiple cogs though, and 9-speed combo will take some "wearing" in. Hah hah ! Well I'm using it with a 9-speed chain, and at first it was quite sluggish to shift into certain combos, not even close to either cross extremes. So it took me a while to get to know how I had to shift in and out of it, to sort of let up on pedal pressure and feel for the engagement of the chain on the cogs before moving it fully over with the shifter. All this happens in the blink of an eye now, but a first it was quite a deliberate and seemingly slow motion.

[Wesley]

Hi Catherina,

Going with a Shimano freehub seems unlikely to be relevant, since the problem is with shifting your front chainrings. They appear to not be have any features like "ramps" and "pins" that are intended to make shifting chainrings easier. I believe you would be able to fix your shifting by swapping to chainrings that do have those features. It is possible that the crank is simply designed with wide spacing between the chainrings that isn't compatible with 10-speed chain - I don't know enough about that to say one way or the other.

Chainrings designs all match a few standards, so you should be able to get Shimano or SRAM chainrings (based on your picture, look for 110mm bolt circle diameter). You do have a 10-speed cassette, so make sure you get 10-speed chainrings and use 10-speed chain.

-Wes

On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 6:28:53 AM UTC-7 Catherina Gioino wrote:

[Wesley]

I just looked this up - apparently the ramps and pins are meant to aid in shifting to a larger chainring. You've said that you have problems shifting to a smaller chainring, so I am not sure that my advice is actually relevant. Sorry! 

-Wes

Source:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_p.html#pins

https://sheldonbrown.com/bolt-hole-patterns.html#why

[Karl Wilcox]

Velocity will replace cracked rims.

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[Joe Bernard]

Wesley, 

My guess in this scenario (cuz I haven't seen the shifters yet) is the front is indexed and is popping the derailleur over a predetermined distance this crank isn't cooperating with. The chain is either not going far enough (caught between rings) or tossing all the way over onto the BB shell. These miss-shifts can be done with friction, too, but we can learn the deft techniques to get it right. With indexing it either works or it doesn't..that's no fun! 

[Patrick Moore]

My experience agrees with Garth's.

Wait a minute: That can't be right! Garth's experiences are way too far out and exuberant for me!

Let me rephrase: Garth's experience shifting an older crank with a newer, narrower chain, matches mine. I use a Ritchy Logic crank, 8 speed,* with an 11 speed chain on a 10 sp cassette (a slightly narrow chain seems to improve or ease rear shifting) and I've never had any problem with the chain falling between the rings. 

* Now the chainring spacers for the granny come from who-knows-where, so they may not be 8 speed ones; they may be 9 speed ones, but never 10 speed ones. Or, they may be 7 speed ones. At any rate, friction shifted, I've never even had to think about the mismatch; it just works fine. (Also, bike has 5-speed friction bar end shifters pulling 8 speed rear derailleur over 10 cogs with 11 sp chain: wonderful shifting.)

On Fri, Jul 29, 2022 at 2:39 PM Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

... Your gearing by the photo is 2x10, not 2x8.  So you're stuck with a 10 speed chain on a crank whose rings "appear" to be too far apart, for 6/7/8 speed chains. Well, that's not as big a deal as it may seem on paper. In practice is where the rubber meets the road. Does it work , or not ? Screw "the book" ! With friction shifting, technique is everything. If you're just pulling and pushing hard without paying attention, feeling what's happening, sometimes certain combos with throw the chain. Even a "proper on paper" setup can throw a chain. It's not something I can put into words easily other than to say "use finesse" , a light touch. Play with it in a work stand if you have one, or do it around home on the road. 

[Catherina Gioino]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the responses and advice— I’m contacting the person I purchased the Roadini from to get more information and contact Velocity. 

As for the shifting, it’s Silver bar end shifters and friction shifting (pic below and mind my boyfriend’s Homer). The rear shifter works fine save for the lowest gear, given that the ~1980s Stronglight crankset likely is too thick for the chain, so the chain can’t shift into the lowest rear gear and jumps whenever I shift the front gears. 

So in essence— I have a couple cool parts frankensteined together that don’t entirely work symbiotically, but it’s fun to ride. However now that I can’t go for a ride until I get the rear rim fixed, I figured I might as well fix the shifting while I’m at it.

Thanks for the advice! I’ll contact Velocity in the meantime but I’m thinking switching everything from Campy to Shimano might be the best option, but looking for any advice!

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Catherina Gioino
718-316-5524
catheri...@gmail.com

[Joe Bernard]

Well this completely deep-sixes my happy little theory and all its associated sage advice. Why didn't I just ask what shifters you're using first?? I don't know! 

Ok I don't see a need to change the whole drivetrain unless you're just not into Campy and want Shimano stuff (a legit move if it's what you want to do). New chainrings or a whole new crank are in order though, and that's going to be true with a Shimano swap, too. Those rings are thick! 

[J J]

Catherine, you might find Velocity to be very helpful. We're going through a replacement process for a couple of well-built Velocity Dyads that prematurely showed stress marks and a couple of fractures similar to yours. They were very lightly ridden (in terms of mileage, weight/load, type of riding, and riding surfaces) on a Wilbury. After seeing photos, Velocity volunteered to replace them — and cautioned against riding them. They were sympathetic about the whole situation and accommodating. Good luck with it.

[Patrick Moore]

Catherina: If your shifters are friction, then they should work with just about any combination of crankset, cassette, derailleurs, and chain, and your shifting problems ought then to be be merely matters of mis-adjustment. Certainly, switching out the Campy derailleurs for Shimano ought not to be necessary. And a 10 speed chain ought to work fine on a 8, 7, 6, or even 5-speed-era chainring; I know I've done it.

Re-reading your original post describing the problem: it seems that the front derailleur cage is not moving inward enough. This might be merely a matter of adjusting the inner stop screw, or re-aligning the cage fore-and-aft by loosening and (Oh! So carefully!) rotating the clamp on the seat tube -- or, if cage is bent, unbending it. (In the old days, people often fine tuned their front shifting by using big pliers on the front derailleur cage. But any front derailleur less than 40 years old ought to work just fine without heroic efforts.)

The only unfixable problems in the system as-is might be that the spacing between chainrings is too large for a 10-speed chain -- solution to get new, narrower chainring spacers if you don't want to buy a whole new crank -- or if the front derailleur is somehow bent or broken beyond repair.

Again, friction shifting systems using components made after about 1980 are so good that just about anything should shift anything as long as the parts are adjusted properly and the shifters have enough throw; I read about people using 5 speed bar end shifters to shift 12 cogs in back on 2022 1X12 systems. 

A good shop ought to be able to find the problem and fix it without selling your a new drivetrain.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum