1/1/20 Blahg

[Patrick Moore]

As usual, fun, miscellaneous, non-organized content. Much on slant parallels and indexing and the power of Shimano and the smallness of SunTour. But, perhaps this is worth a breath: sure, everyone nowadays wants 13 in back and trouble-free electric, indexed shifting. BUT! I would not be surprised if there is a market "out there" for honorable consumers who like to develop the skills required to do things for themselves. After all, there was the fixie craze during the 10 speed indexing period, and -- I am no expert on current culture, but is there not a trend toward self-reliance, authenticity (not sure how to define this, but at least, don't buy what you can't do), simplicity, and durability? The sorts of people who use knives instead of processors, and knead bread dough instead of using bread makers? (Both for me, tho' I'm no gourmet chef.)

The same from another angle: every time you gain with a machine that makes it easier for you to do something, and for neophytes to get into the action, you also pari passu lose skill and expertise, which itself is very often a large part of the pleasure and self-affirmation of practicing some craft, be it only shifting a derailleur system.

Now, if you perfect -- as Rivendell's Silvers do --"do-it-yourself manual shifting, might there not be a small but sustainable market for well-meaning, earnest, honest people who'd like to aquire these minimal self-sufficient skills with tools perfected for the purpose?

It seems to me that Rivendell ought to actively market to this audience; not the theme, "We're diehard holdouts for old-fashioned skills," but "You want the pleasure and self respect of learning how to do things for yourself; we can equip you with tools perfected for this" -- whether shifters, axes, bags, clothing, what have you. IOW, not "we're holdouts" but "you don't want to be subordinate to the machine; we are on your side with the right stuff."

Those new Silver shifters might well be a design that entices me away from beloved SunTour barcons.I didn't like the older, long-levered Silver bar end shifters, but the new ones may make me change my mind.

Casting back to the last blahg, with Archie Bunker: I never watched All in the Family until just a week or so ago when I looked it up. I have to say that, from the very few episodes I fast forwarded through, it was well done, and I usually hate TV. That is, it portrayed a bigot well as a bigot in a humorous way.

What I have watched what may be BBC's antecedent to the show which, as an Anglophile, I like quite a bit. As usual, as with anything literary or dramatic, the Brits just do it better.

Grant, this one's for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0-leRNxhmg

Today when you're picking out baby and toddler toys, the groovy thing to look for is a toy that requires the human to do 90+ percent of the work. A book versus an audio book or video game, Tinker Toys versus online building things or whatever. Adult toys used to be that way, but bicycles, more than most, have eliminated the need to make mechanisms perform. All riders have to do it push to the click, or share the task with a motor. It's no skin off anybody's nose, who even cares?, except that I think everybody should have at least one bike that is more manual than automatic. It's not a matter of trying to make simple things harder; it's more like not seeking out the easiest, most brainless way to perform a function that formerly required a little skill, and then feeling puffed up for your "smart shopping."

SILVER shifters and any modern slant parallelogram rear derailer (Shimano makes good ones) is a good way to go. A little practice and you'll be fine in a week!

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[masmojo]

Well, I love Grant and he's right a lot of the time about a lot of things, but it's my personal belief is index shifting ain't one of them.
I really don't think index shifting was intended for "lazy" people. I never really appreciated index shifting until I started riding mountain bikes; and honestly in that context especially, it's indispensable. When you drop down into a gully or a roller and you need a lower gear to get out then what you used to get in, you've got to RAPIDLY move through the gears to get to the one you need! There's no time to feel it through. Additionally, if you can have index shifting, then why wouldn't you? I have plenty of bikes with friction shifting and in a general sense it's fine, but it's a tool to shift gears; very simple that. Index or not why is it even a talking point? Last night I changed the Dia Compe friction shifter off my Atlantis & installed a new MicroShift bar con. So now I have index; yeah!
This wasn't so much to get index as it was to get a bar con, because the old shifter was down tube mounted which I find to be a pain most of the time.
OK, that said where does one draw the line. Problem is shifting quickly went from 7 speed thumb shifters to the push-push trigger monstrosities. Those I absolutely don't dig very much! Why, because they don't really bring anything to the game, they don't improve anything, in fact they create problems, because they are fragile, wear quickly & break! But, maybe that's the idea? Planned obsolescence.

Second, I think this whole long wheelbase thing is getting completely out of hand. I agree that a super short wheelbase is sort of overkill, but there's no reason a Clem should have the wheelbase it does. In fact all sorts of reasons it shouldn't. I can say that, not as someone whose never ridden a long wheelbase Rivendell, but as someone who owns two! (Formerly three!) Unfortunately, I have no way to make a head to head comparison, but I feel pretty safe postulating that I'd love my Medium Clementine more if the chainstays were 3/4 shorter. Which I should add; would still be considered long.
I am sorry if I come off contrarian; I am not in favor of change for changes sake and there's loads of "technical Improvements" in the bike industry that make me ask why? But in the last 10 years I've probably bought 10 bikes; the Only ones that didn't have threadless stearers/headsets, Disc Brakes, etc. Have been Rivendells; I didn't buy the Rivendells because they didn't have those things, but in spite of them not having those things. As a former bike mechanic and person who wrenches my own bikes, I recognize an improvement over pointless gadgetry. I've recently bought not one, but two bikes with thru-axles and I can honestly say I dig'em a lot! Prior to that a good vertical drop out was my favorite, but these thru-axles are undoubtedly an improvement.
Anywayz, I realize I'm tilting at windmills here, but there's a certain amount of catharsis.

[Daniel D.]

Honorable? Lol. Bike geeks aren't Jedis.

[Patrick Moore]

What does this reply refer to?

On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 3:02 PM Daniel D. <dddo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Honorable?  Lol.  Bike geeks aren't Jedis.

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[Patrick Moore]

To explain: It seems only polite that people should give sufficient context for their replies; social courtesy, so to speak.

To plop a brief sentence into the middle of a thread without any context to make it intelligible seems to me to be not only rude but self defeating.

[Patrick Moore]

I'll let Grant defend himself on indexing. I will only add that I am personally very glad that refined friction shifting systems he marketare still being developed and put on the market.

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[Eric Norris]

Gotta agree with you. I have both friction- and index-shifting bikes, including one bike with Campagnolo Ergo levers that I haven’t been on in a couple of years. I enjoy them both, but when you’re getting tired at the end of a long ride it is such a convenience not to have to hunt around for a lower gear when the road tilts up.

I’ve had the experience far too many times of not shifting far enough into a lower gear and then being plunged back to a higher gear when the chain seeks a lower place. That never happens with index shifting.

Yes, even down-tube indexed levers can fail in ways that friction levers can’t. Small parts with close tolerances can do that. However, in 30+ years of indexed shifting I have never had a downtube shifter fail on me. I *have* had to repair/refurbish Ergo levers (not that hard, really), but even then it was to correct poor shifting, not because they failed.

--Eric N

[Matt Dreher]

Agreed on both counts but especially LWB. There's a lot of things he's right about and it doesn't take a stretch to get on his side regarding, like steel, rim brakes, threaded steerers, leather saddles, and so on. Asking the average cyclist with Rivendell money to take a chance on a bike with way-long stays is a lot, though, and it drives away people who would otherwise be on board with the aesthetic and philosophy of Rivendell. How many people out there have Surlies with $1000+ of Paul and Phil and White onboard? More than you think, at least in Japan if Blue Lug's flickr is anything to go by. Why not give your average Crosscheck owner a nicer frame to aspire to as well without asking them to give up the quick handling?

[Bill Lindsay]

masmojo said index shifting is indispensable for mountain biking, but said he doesn't like trigger shifters.

What do you use on your mountain bike(s) if you don't use trigger shifters?  Grip shift? 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Joe Bernard]

It is my understanding that Riv frames are the one product they sell as many of as they can make. The Roadini was an exception and it had shorter stays than the other stuff, I don't think Grant's longbikes are a marketing issue.

I love Silver Power Ratchet shifters but they do indeed belong in the simple/fixie category of bikes you don't shift much..a thing Grant has promoted since way back in the Bstone days. When I use them I tend to stay in a particular gear longer and just grind it or coast down because hunting for gears with friction can be more bother than it's worth. This works great for me - especially on my eClem which hardly needs to be shifted - but as masmojo says wouldn't be great on hilly dirt rides. If I bought a Gus/Susie it would get a 1x indexed drivetrain, my custom will have one Silver shifting two rings up front.

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 1:55:08 PM UTC-8, masmojo wrote:

Second, I think this whole long wheelbase thing is getting completely out of hand. I agree that a super short wheelbase is sort of overkill, but there's no reason a Clem should have the wheelbase it does. In fact all sorts of reasons it shouldn't. I can say that, not as someone whose never ridden a long wheelbase Rivendell, but as someone who owns two! (Formerly three!)…

I've only scant experience with the LWB bikes, having built a couple or three for a friend (so have to do shakedown rides), and riding the MIT Atlantis one time at RBWHQ. I didn't really find anything objectable with them at all, and the only remarkable challenge I saw was fitting a LWB into a car. They rode similar to other Rivendell bikes (of which I have four) – stable and predictable. So what didn't you like about your LWB bikes? Given that handling is more than the sum of its parts, how did you come to attribute any difference solely to the LWB?

[Joe Bernard]

Now - since Benz mentioned it - transporting long Rivs in/on cars is a whole 'nother matter. My quite long Chevy Impala with big trunk and fold-down rear seats swallows a 45cm Clem L with the front wheel off easily. My recent 52 Clem H, not so much. That bike was big!

[Ron Mc]

As Grant well pointed out, SunTour lives on in every derailleur made today.  

In 1988, even Campy bit the bullet and copied SunTour

[Eric Daume]

They’re hard to wheelie? 

Grant belittles a “playful” mountain bike in this post, but getting the front end up to get over an obstacle, or just to have fun, is part of mountain biking. 

My Jones LWB is a very capable mountain bike, but it’s noticeably harder to loft the front than a shorter stayed bike. I can’t recall even trying to wheelie my Clem. 

Oh, and they take two chains. 

Eric

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[Mark Roland]

Interesting. While it would still be necessary to market friction shifting and long chainstays and rim brakes in contrast to what is on most other bicycles, you would really focus on the skills and the connection between the rider and the bicycle and the environment. I've long been interested in technology and energy, and how these forces affect economic and social structures. In the past, over on IBob,  I've referred to Ivan Illich's Tools For Conviviality. to make a few different points about bicycles. In relation to the most recent Blagh post, the first chapter, Two Watersheds, is relevant.

The institution of health care/medicine is used as an example (and has only gained in its prescience and accuracy, unfortunately!), but the example of the development of the slant parallelogram in the early 70s (watershed 1, solving a real issue and greatly improving the performance of the bicycle drive train) and the onslaught of indexing systems in the early-mid 80s (watershed 2, where the "improvements" are minimal, and the benefit mainly goes to the purveyor of the more complex, more interdependent system, not the user) By the mid nineties, with the advent of suspension systems, disc brakes, carbon fiber, increasing specialization of equipment, clothing, etc., watershed 2 for bicycle design was definitely reached. Anyone interested in reading this chapter, or the whole book, can find it here: https://arl.human.cornell.edu/linked%20docs/Illich_Tools_for_Conviviality.pdf

A quote from Tools For Conviviality that seems apropos to Grant's current blog:

"Tools are intrinsic to social relationships. An individual relates himself in action to his society through the use of tools that he actively masters, or by which he is passively acted upon. To the degree that he masters his tools, he can invest the world with his meaning; to the degree that he is mastered by his tools, the shape of the tool determines his own self-image.Convivial tools are those which give each person who uses them the greatest opportunity to enrich the environment with the fruits of his or her vision. Industrial tools deny this possibility to those who use them and they allow their designers to determine the meaning and expectations of others. Most tools today cannot be used in a convivial fashion."

While I'm hogging bandwidth with lengthy quotes and little original thought, here is another take on the matter, from another big thinker:

"Our souls as well as our bodies are composed of individual elements which were all already present in the ranks of our ancestors. The “newness” in the individual psyche is an endlessly varied recombination of age-old components. Body and soul therefore have an intensely historical character and find no proper place in what is new , in things that have just come into being. That is to say, our ancestral components are only partly at home in such things. We are very far from having finished completely with the Middle Ages, classical antiquity, and primitivity, as our modern psyches pretend.

Nevertheless, we have plunged down a cataract of progress, which sweeps us on into the future with ever wilder violence the farther it takes us from our roots. Once the past has been breached, it is usually annihilated, and there is no stopping the forward motion. But it is precisely the loss of connection with the past, our uprootedness, which has given rise to the “discontents” of civilisation and to such a flurry and haste that we live more in the future and its chimerical promises of a golden age than in the present, with which our whole evolutionary background has not yet caught up.

We rush impetuously into novelty, driven by a mounting sense of insufficiency, dissatisfaction, and restlessness. We no longer live on what we have, but on promises, no longer in the light of the present day, but in the darkness of the future, which, we expect, will at last bring the proper sunrise. We refuse to recognise that everything better is purchased at the price of something worse; that, for example, the hope of greater freedom is cancelled out by increased enslavement to the state, not to speak of the terrible perils to which the most brilliant discoveries of science expose us.

The less we understand of what our fathers and forefathers sought, the less we understand ourselves, and thus we help with all our might to rob the individual of his roots and his guiding instincts, so that he becomes a particle in the mass, ruled only by what Nietzsche called the spirit of gravity.

Reforms by advances, that is, by new methods or gadgets, are of course impressive at first, but in the long run they are dubious and in any case dearly paid for. They by no means increase the contentment or happiness of people on the whole. Mostly, they are deceptive sweetenings of existence, like speedier communications, which unpleasantly accelerate the tempo of life and leave us with less time than ever before. Omnis festinatio ex parte diaboli est – all haste is of the devil, as the old masters used to say.

Reforms by retrogressions, on the other hand, are as a rule less expensive and in addition more lasting, for they return to the simpler, tried and tested ways of the past and make the sparsest use of newspapers, radio, television, and all supposedly timesaving innovations.

In this book I have devoted considerable space to my subjective view of the world, which, however, is not a product of rational thinking. It is rather a vision such as will come to one who undertakes, deliberately, with half-closed eyes and somewhat closed ears, to see and hear the form and voice of being. If our impressions are too distinct, we are held to the hour and minute of the present and have no way of knowing how our ancestral psyches listen to and understand the present – in other words, how our unconscious is responding to it. Thus we remain ignorant of whether our ancestral components find elementary gratification in our lives, or whether they are repelled. Inner peace and contentment depend in large measure upon whether or not the historical family, which is inherent in the individual, can be harmonised with the ephemeral conditions of the present.

Carl Jung, Memories, Dreams, Reflections (published posthumously, 1963)

[Mark Roland]

More importantly, here is my Blue, on my old Zebrakenko Wind, a really really nice orange bicycle (Ishiwata 022):

More Photos https://photos.app.goo.gl/SGwrWVi5v3v2YPV93

On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 2:44:00 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

[Mark Roland]

Oops, two more things. The shifters that mate with the Suntour BL rear derailleur  are gorgeous, with Campy knock-off "bumps combined with a cut out and the blue accent:

right click to view and you can make it larger.

2nd thing:

Jan Heine predicts the return of down tube shifters in the coming decade:

STI/Ergo/DoubleTap will become obsolete

Mechanical brifters don’t make much sense any longer: The levers are hard to push, especially for riders with small hands. The many small parts in the levers wear out quickly, especially if you’re a racer who is used to rapid shifts. Electronic shifting already is more reliable and easier to use. Soon it’ll be cheaper, too. Plus, it automatically trims the front derailleur…

For those who prefer more involvement in the workings of their bikes, downtube shifters will make a comeback. There is a joy to feeling the chain move as you pull on a lever, and getting a shift just right is very satisfying. Just like sports car makers are re-introducing mechanical gearboxes, bike component makers will bring back downtube shifters and even a friction option. (Hopefully!)

[Joe Bernard]

I don't think he's right about the return of dt shifters. I would also contest his contention that manual shift is making a comeback in sports cars; there's a stalwart few who never abandoned them, but I'm not seeing a mad rush back in that area. Dual-clutch semi-autos with paddle shifters are not the car equivalent of downtubers.

[Brewster Fong]

On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 9:33:42 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:

I don't think he's right about the return of dt shifters. I would also contest his contention that manual shift is making a comeback in sports cars; there's a stalwart few who never abandoned them, but I'm not seeing a mad rush back in that area. Dual-clutch semi-autos with paddle shifters are not the car equivalent of downtubers.

Agree, this is way off topic, but what car mfr is bringing back manual shifters?!  Yes, Miatas, certain Hondas, Toyotas. VWs, Ford, GM and of course BMW and Porsche still offer it.

But with the advent of Battery Electric Vehicles (BEV), the leader is Tesla and they only have one speed. Same for the Chevy Bolt and Nissan Leaf.  Even the new $150K Porsche Taycan will only have a 2 speed transmission. None of these BEVs have manual transmissions.

Similarly, with bicycles, things are going to e-shifting with Shimano di2, Sram etap and Campy EPS. They all work very well. I don't see a return to dt shifters....Good Luck!

[Paul Clifton]

There's a lot of stuff in the Blahg post. I'm glad I took the time to read it all.

It's been mentioned here a couple times already, but it doesn't have to be a battle between friction and index. Why not both, and part of that is for the reasons that Patrick M. and Mark R. are stating. There's a value to the experience of direct control of the machine.

I see young people seeking out those kinds of experiences all over the place - vinyl records, hand crank coffee grinders, knitting and other crafts, even trendy axes. *Tools for Conviviality* is definitely a good source for thinking about that kind of stuff. I don't know how far it gets into the lived experiences of young adults who come of age in a digital world, but many people under 30 feel like they are missing something by having their day-to-day existence black-boxed and white-labeled. My brother (currently about 25) said of his peers, "We latch on to anything that can give us a real expereience." FWIW, he is into printmaking.

Things like friction shifters need to continue to exist so that people who are compelled to have the experience can have it. I think Riv and Grant do an amazing job putting things like friction shifters out there and attracting the people who want to try them.

That doesn't mean that index shifting doesn't have a place. Grant even explicitly talks about a certain type of skilled MTB rider who enjoys the thrill of riding fast, dodging trees, and popping wheelies. And every time it comes up, he say something to the effect of "If you like it, good for you, go have fun." I've done a lot of mountain biking with friction shifting (even 10 speed), and I like it just fine. If I need to go from a hard gear to and easy gear, I just yank the lever further and keep pedaling. But I prefer a 21st century index shifter on my mountain bike, mostly because the shifter is easier to access with my hands near the brakes.

I think that there are skills that are easier to learn on a bike with index shifters and short chainstays and skills that are easier to learn on friction/long bikes. I've reached the limits of what I can do on my MTBubbe, but I want to keep pushing my limits, so I'm going to try out a modern MTB. I've been practicing manuals and bunny hops and drops and pump tracks and all of that. It's all super fun to me, but some of it is damn hard on a long bike. I wipe out on berms and babyheads almost every time I ride. I enjoy going slow over them, and I can stay upright, but I'd like to ride them faster, and a little suspension will improve traction and make that possible. I don't know about short chainstays, steep seat tube angles, and short stems though. We'll see.

I don't expect my Rivs to do everything a modern MTB does. I KNOW that they do some things better though. I've only ridden a handful of trails that might be more fun on a squishy bike. I don't think most single track will be made any better by suspension and shorter wheelbase. I like brifters. I like friction and index bar ends. Not so into thumbies. Hate downtubes. It's all personal preference, and thanks to Grant for making such idiocyncratic bikes that people with indocyncratic preferences and bikes to ride.

Index shifters and Riv bikes are for everyone, but chosen by a type of person who values (at least part of) the experience they enable. That type of person and those values aren't going anywhere. As long as there are parts out there and the freedom and knowledge to fool around with them, the people who want them will find them.

My Rosco Baby and my wife's Clem fit on my roof rack, so there are definitely options for carrying long bikes.

Paul in NW Arkansas

P.S. Every time Grant says he doesn't like something, he isn't "belittling" it. He may be philosophically opposed to the industry trends and modern MTB risk-taking style that led to what he's talking about, but it's clear he respects other riders and the riding they enjoy: "For having fun and as a dancing sprite, andelf-imp on twisty singletracks, tossing the rear wheel here and there, wheelie-ing on a whim, and other things like that, that sound fun on paper, but I couldn’t relate to. Maybe it is a matter of riding style and skill." Grant has his riding style and his bikes are good for it. Other people have a different style and they choose bike for that. Some people enjoy many styles and buy Rivs and modern bikes and ride them all, and I've never heard Grant say negative stuff about anyone enjoying any kind of bike ride - the industry pushing a style for sales and the compromises it makes to push that style, and the environmental costs and labor costs etc. - that's another thing.

Just Ride.

On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 8:27:50 PM UTC-6, Eric Daume wrote:

They’re hard to wheelie? 

Grant belittles a “playful” mountain bike in this post, but getting the front end up to get over an obstacle, or just to have fun, is part of mountain biking. 

My Jones LWB is a very capable mountain bike, but it’s noticeably harder to loft the front than a shorter stayed bike. I can’t recall even trying to wheelie my Clem. 

Oh, and they take two chains. 

Eric

On Thursday, January 2, 2020, Benz, Sunnyvale, CA <benzo...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 1:55:08 PM UTC-8, masmojo wrote:

Second, I think this whole long wheelbase thing is getting completely out of hand. I agree that a super short wheelbase is sort of overkill, but there's no reason a Clem should have the wheelbase it does. In fact all sorts of reasons it shouldn't. I can say that, not as someone whose never ridden a long wheelbase Rivendell, but as someone who owns two! (Formerly three!)…

I've only scant experience with the LWB bikes, having built a couple or three for a friend (so have to do shakedown rides), and riding the MIT Atlantis one time at RBWHQ. I didn't really find anything objectable with them at all, and the only remarkable challenge I saw was fitting a LWB into a car. They rode similar to other Rivendell bikes (of which I have four) – stable and predictable. So what didn't you like about your LWB bikes? Given that handling is more than the sum of its parts, how did you come to attribute any difference solely to the LWB?

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[Patrick Moore]

+ 1 for this sort of shifting. I actually enjoy the wider variety of torque and cadence required by old fashioned drivetrains (with the exception that I do prefer very close ratios in the very middle, middle defined by use/terrain/type of riding; eg, pavement, 65-70-75 gi (thus must look for Sturmey Archer AC hub; source = Sheldon:)

AC	3	Close	106.66 100 93.3	A rare model, made for club bicycles, time trials.

Tho' I may have to content myself with the AM at 1.115/1.0/0.8654 -- roughly 2-teeth differences in the middle pavement range.

Of course, I don't do a lot of technical singletrack or even short, steep hilly terrain; would doubtless have second thoughts about indexing (or ss + walking??) for such uses.

On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 5:02 PM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

 

I love Silver Power Ratchet shifters but they do indeed belong in the simple/fixie category of bikes you don't shift much..a thing Grant has promoted since way back in the Bstone days. When I use them I tend to stay in a particular gear longer and just grind it or coast down because hunting for gears with friction can be more bother than it's worth. This works great for me - especially on my eClem which hardly needs to be shifted - but as masmojo says wouldn't be great on hilly dirt rides. If I bought a Gus/Susie it would get a 1x indexed drivetrain, my custom will have one Silver shifting two rings up front.

[Patrick Moore]

Interesting generalization of the connection between tool technology and human flourishing. In this connection, I recall reading a very interesting book some 10 or so years ago about a MIT master's student who spent a year or so with a very technology-conservative (no black bumper cars, no gasoline engines on horse-drawn reapers) Amish or Mennonite community, with the goal of finding out how much leisure and consequent contentment they had compared to use ordinary cubicle folk. He found that, because they did things slowly by hand in family and communal groups, then by a generous definition of leisure time -- time spent drinking lemonade and chatting while shelling peas would be leisure for example -- they actually had far more leisur time than we'uns.

Back to regular programming. Me, I do like the effort, challenge, difficulty, skill, and autonomy required by, for example, shifting friction, making bread by hand (actually, it's easier and quicker -- far less cleanup -- for me than with a processor or bread machine and you get better results), food prep (good knife instead of machine), etc. because it makes these activities into fun, or at least, "more-fun") pastimes instead of just another damned chore. Likewise driving -- the most fun car I ever owned, even in traffic -- hell, especially in traffic! -- had a 4-on-the-dash with 29 hp engine and, thank God, a torquey power band.

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[masmojo]

Well, Bill I am not sure if indispensable is the word I would choose, but they (index shifters) certainly are butt saver sometimes.

The answer though, at least for the time being is Microshift. Surly's have come with'em for years. Unfortunately, that's pretty much it. To me the issue is not indexing as much as it is these overly complex, non user serviceable shifting contraptions of the last 25 years. This all makes me think that maybe electronic shifting ain't really that bad!???
My recently built Crust Scapegoat has a 10 speed SRAM "trigger" shifter. I'd like to say I hate it, but truth is it's not that bad. I just don't have too much faith that it'll hold up very well.

Very simply shifting is shifting, I've done it 10s of thousands of times and I really don't derive a high amount of satisfaction from doing it right. Exactly the opposite really; I expect to do it right & I am just mildly annoyed if it goes awry for some reason.
Increasingly, my fear is that the parts to build a Rivendell are going to go from being commonplace to sort of proprietary. As they move further from the main stream. The choices start to become fewer and more expensive. Finding a 650B disc rim or wheel set is falling off a log easy; rim brake on the other hand, although not too difficult is hard to do inexpensively and it's only likely to get worse.

Increasing the front center of a Clem cockpit, may seem fairly innocent, until you think about putting handlebars on it. Your gonna need bars with more sweep back & really nobody else makes those, only Rivendell. This isn't so much a complaint as an observation.

Manual shifters in cars sadly are not making a comeback, they've just held on & I hope they continue to. But, I'm afraid, especially with the advent of electric cars their days are numbered. More & more CVTs are replacing automatics as the default transmission and that's pretty much the way it's going to go. It's a short script at this point.

[James Valiensi]

Oh Boy-

I hate friction shifting with modern cogs, ie the ones designed for index shifting. I tried to use friction with these cogs and got nothing but ghost shifts when I stood up or pedaled hard. 

Friction is best with an old Suntour six speed freewheels.

I like vinyl and film. But I jammed my Nikon FE yesterday trying to load film in it. It's been a few years since I used film and I forgot how to load the damn thing. 

My Joe A. is an awesome bike. It has the nicest ride. But the chain stays are so long. When I wash it, I feel like I'm working in a shipyard. I've been tempted to shorten the stays (cut the back of the bike frame off and put it together better. A bike shouldn't have chain stays so long that you need to buy two chains to get enough length for it. 

Hydraulic disk brakes work great and cantilevers will always suck. 

I've also though how cool my Joe A would be with disk brakes. 

I run many bikes with a 1 x 11 drive train I don't miss the front derailleur. In fact I re-installed one on my Riv custom and it took three different ones and an hour of adjusting to get it to work (small chainrings and loads of BB drop on that frame) 

I've been a Rivendell fan & customer since day one. But sometimes I think they are too rigid in their bike philosophy. 

[Kalmia Vt]

James writes: " A bike shouldn't have chain stays so long that you need to buy two chains to get enough length for it." That was a bit of a surprise to me when I built my Appaloosa. Rather than go to my local shop and buy two chains when I replaced the chain last year, I called Rivendell and told them how many links I wanted. They stock bulk chain and cut to length on request. I think it is a KMC product. Shifts fine on my 3x9 set-up. And if you leave it a little dirty, nobody can tell it's not Ultegra.   -   K

[Joe Bernard]

Recumbents and tandems have lots of chain, too. I understand the irritation about longbikes needing long chains and wide racks (car racks), but neither of these are a design flaw from the perspective of what works to make a bike pedal well.

[Patrick Moore]

On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 7:36 PM James Valiensi <jpval...@gmail.com> wrote:

Oh Boy-

I hate friction shifting with modern cogs, ie the ones designed for index shifting. I tried to use friction with these cogs and got nothing but ghost shifts when I stood up or pedaled hard. 

Friction is best with an old Suntour six speed freewheels.

I assert, claim, insist, asseverate, proclaim, and announce that friction works better with Hyperglide cogs than with any square-profile, pre-indexed cogset I ever used; only, Uniglide might friction better than HG. SunTour BarCons, 10 speeds, mismatched cogs. Just wonderful. But then again, I had no problem with Huret Alvit rds or Delrin Simplex, either.

 

I like vinyl and film. But I jammed my Nikon FE yesterday trying to load film in it. It's been a few years since I used film and I forgot how to load the damn thing. 

I proclaim that the camera on your obsolete iPhone is all any reasonable person needs for all life's photography. 

My Joe A. is an awesome bike. It has the nicest ride. But the chain stays are so long. When I wash it, I feel like I'm working in a shipyard. I've been tempted to shorten the stays (cut the back of the bike frame off and put it together better. A bike shouldn't have chain stays so long that you need to buy two chains to get enough length for it. 

Hah! Tell that to Grant Petersen.

 

Hydraulic disk brakes work great and cantilevers will always suck. 

Bullship. I've used brakes from stirrup to cable cantis, even tried hydros, and even had a bike with a weird hybrid Bowden cable/rod system. I've used many very good brakes, "good" meaning power vs effort and modulation. The best brakes I've ever used in 60 years of cycling were the IRD cantis set up by Riv staff on my erstwhile Sam Hill. Braking Paradise.

 

I've also though how cool my Joe A would be with disk brakes. 

I will let you get away with this speculation.

I run many bikes with a 1 x 11 drive train I don't miss the front derailleur. In fact I re-installed one on my Riv custom and it took three different ones and an hour of adjusting to get it to work (small chainrings and loads of BB drop on that frame) 

And no complaints about his declaration, tho' I will indeed add that setting up fds takes some experience, but it's not genius material. (My Dura Ace 7410 fd works perfectly well on my 42/28 subcompact Ritchey Logic, pulled again by a BarCon.

 

I've been a Rivendell fan & customer since day one. But sometimes I think they are too rigid in their bike philosophy. 

I will obstruct no man in his opinions about Rivendell's penchants.

But I declare and insist with full confidence in the righteousness of my position that every reasonable man and woman will grant that a fixed drivetrain is all one needs, and that said fixed drivetrains RULE!!!!

Patrick "fixed as much in his convictions as in his drivetrains (heh heh heh)" Moore

 
On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:44:00 AM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:

As usual, fun, miscellaneous, non-organized content. Much on slant parallels and indexing and the power of Shimano and the smallness of SunTour. But, perhaps this is worth a breath: sure, everyone nowadays wants 13 in back and trouble-free electric, indexed shifting. BUT! I would not be surprised if there is a market "out there" for honorable consumers who like to develop the skills required to do things for themselves. After all, there was the fixie craze during the 10 speed indexing period, and -- I am no expert on current culture, but is there not a trend toward self-reliance, authenticity (not sure how to define this, but at least, don't buy what you can't do), simplicity, and durability? The sorts of people who use knives instead of processors, and knead bread dough instead of using bread makers? (Both for me, tho' I'm no gourmet chef.)

The same from another angle: every time you gain with a machine that makes it easier for you to do something, and for neophytes to get into the action, you also pari passu lose skill and expertise, which itself is very often a large part of the pleasure and self-affirmation of practicing some craft, be it only shifting a derailleur system.

Now, if you perfect -- as Rivendell's Silvers do --"do-it-yourself manual shifting, might there not be a small but sustainable market for well-meaning, earnest, honest people who'd like to aquire these minimal self-sufficient skills with tools perfected for the purpose?

It seems to me that Rivendell ought to actively market to this audience; not the theme, "We're diehard holdouts for old-fashioned skills," but "You want the pleasure and self respect of learning how to do things for yourself; we can equip you with tools perfected for this" -- whether shifters, axes, bags, clothing, what have you. IOW, not "we're holdouts" but "you don't want to be subordinate to the machine; we are on your side with the right stuff."

Those new Silver shifters might well be a design that entices me away from beloved SunTour barcons.I didn't like the older, long-levered Silver bar end shifters, but the new ones may make me change my mind.

Casting back to the last blahg, with Archie Bunker: I never watched All in the Family until just a week or so ago when I looked it up. I have to say that, from the very few episodes I fast forwarded through, it was well done, and I usually hate TV. That is, it portrayed a bigot well as a bigot in a humorous way.

What I have watched what may be BBC's antecedent to the show which, as an Anglophile, I like quite a bit. As usual, as with anything literary or dramatic, the Brits just do it better.

Grant, this one's for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0-leRNxhmg

Today when you're picking out baby and toddler toys, the groovy thing to look for is a toy that requires the human to do 90+ percent of the work. A book versus an audio book or video game, Tinker Toys versus online building things or whatever. Adult toys used to be that way, but bicycles, more than most, have eliminated the need to make mechanisms perform. All riders have to do it push to the click, or share the task with a motor. It's no skin off anybody's nose, who even cares?, except that I think everybody should have at least one bike that is more manual than automatic. It's not a matter of trying to make simple things harder; it's more like not seeking out the easiest, most brainless way to perform a function that formerly required a little skill, and then feeling puffed up for your "smart shopping."

SILVER shifters and any modern slant parallelogram rear derailer (Shimano makes good ones) is a good way to go. A little practice and you'll be fine in a week!

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[BSWP]

I also enjoyed the new years day blahg... rambling, informative, entertaining. I think I need some new fidget gadgets on my desk...

I have two bikes right now, QuickBeam (shift by loosening two 15mm nuts and sliding the axle or flopping the wheel) and LongLow (friction-mode Shimano 105 barends to a fine six-speed freewheel and front triple). For me, friction shifting keeps me in tune with the bike, which I like. The rubbing front der or rumbling rear cogs tell me I need to nudge the lever just a wee bit more, and I appreciate the communication. But that's me, the connection with the components is part of the ride, and part of why I ride.

Now, on the new frame, still waiting to be built, I have a Rohloff rear hub, so it's going to be a purely indexed shifter, the big collar to turn. Thinking to mount it on the stem... there will be learning involved, and I look forward to that, too.

- Andrew, Berkeley