Let's talk about the All Rounder

[Sean Steinle]

I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I honestly can't find much about the All Rounder, in the way of ride reports, reviews, etc. It seems to be a Holy Grail bike for several, and I'm curious, is it simply the fact that they're rare and hard to find now, or is there truly something special about it? 

I remember Grant talking about the old Bridgestones in an article I came across, and his sentiment was essentially 'They're fine bikes, but they don't stack up against Rivs'. At least part of his reasoning was that he'd continued to refine with Rivendell, and the improvements were drastic enough that he felt the Rivs were in a different league. This makes me wonder if Grant would have a similar feeling about the All Rounder. I'd love to hear from those who own/have owned one. What's the verdict, is it truly one of the best Rivs out there? Worth the price of admission if one is lucky enough to find one in their size?

Thanks for humoring me :)

Sean in Kansas

[Marty Gierke, Stewartstown PA]

I had a 2001 All Rounder for a while. Lovely bike. Fit me well. Checked all the boxes - looks, quality, fully lugged, Rivendell branding, known builder (Kurt Goodrich in this case). Maybe I should have kept it, but when I came across a Clem H in my size - at a third the price I could get for the AR frameset - I elected to turn the page. Glad I did. The Clem is everything an All Rounder should be. Stout, stable, versatile, comfortable. The list goes on. Comparing the two is not easy - they both felt fine for my riding style. If I had both I dare say the Clem would be out on the trail way more than the AR. Aside from the Rivendell branding on the AR, I like the aesthetics of both about the same, although the swooping seat stays on Clem are kind of interesting - a little Hetchins-like. The Clem will take bigger tires with fenders if that matters. As a bike, I think it's hard to beat what Riv sells now. Most are All Rounders in all the ways that matter. I'll admit I am not a fan of step-through style frames in general (I had a huge Roscoe Bubbe) or curved/dropped/swooping top tubes. The Clem H TT is not horizontal, but at least it's straight. Simply a function of my age I think. If I found another AR that fit, and I had the $$$, I might be tempted, but I'm not really looking (or hoping) for one to pop up.  Here's my AR and the Clem H that replaced it. The Clem is getting new tires this week, and has been tweaked in a few other ways. I'll post some more pics of that shortly. 

Marty

[Mackenzy Albright]

I have not personally owned an all-rounder. But in general interest of bike development and history. It seemed that the design lineage came loosely from elements of the randonneur bikes (roadish geometry with 650b wider tires) Grant - being a thoughtful individual, adopted the design to contemporary parts availability which created the XO-1, which utilized slightly wider 26" tires. With Bridgestone being less interested in developing niche bikes grant started Rivendell. The All-rounder was a quick adaptation to a more boutique style small company version with revisions as Grant's perspective on bikes changed. If I recall there was also the mountain bike (I cant recall the name) and a road frame? EItherway - the All-rounder morphed into the Atlantis (another reference to Bridgestone touring bikes)  The Atlantis, again following trends in terms of wheelsize and clearance became (ie fitting 29er sized tires etc) which has had it's own evolution in itself. 

Grant see's his bikes within his interest of market. I think the early Atlantis style bikes influenced a whole generation of conteporary bikes. Crust Romanceur (which has been cited as based off the atlantis with discs and lower trail) Guerilla Monsoon, Midnight Special. ANd pretty much every other company to follow. 

In terms of a tighter geometry (road) geometry bike that fits relatively large wheels, there are now a ton of options. Which is fantastic. I really like my romanceur. It feels spritely as any road bike but easily handles more conditions. 

Rivendell in itself has de-performanced their contemporary designs (from racing standpoint) and pushed geometry to be more adventure, comfort, and stamina based oriented. Having several injuries and not being able to maintain an aggressive riding position and extremely excited to build up a CLEM L for camping/touring bike. I'll keep the romanceur for shorter more "spirited rides" as Jan Heine would say. 

In terms of preference. I think the all-rounder (x0-1) Toyo Atlantis's have a special place especially in paving the way for contemporary performance bike design. Aesthetically and performance wise. In terms of actual design - there are so many options, as we kind of live in a renaissance of bicycle design where we have so many options at reasonable costs. I for one am excited for what RIvendell is pushing these days (long slack sturdy), as I feel like you can find something reminiscent of the All-rounders elsewhere (even the crust lightning bolt). Or even just get a custom made for probably a similarly proportional price from an artisanal builder with many wonderful tube-sets available to choose from. 

[Bill Lindsay]

Sean asked a few questions regarding the All-Rounder.  I have not owned one, but I know the Bridgestone and Riv history pretty well and know Grant pretty well.  Sean's questions were:

1.  I'm curious (about why it's a Holy Grail bike for several), is it simply the fact that they're rare and hard to find now, or is there truly something special about it?  

IMO, there is nothing truly special about it in the objective sense.  It was a step along Grant's design career.  Grant thinks of his current designs as more refined, i.e. 'better'.  Ungenerous folks attribute this to Grant being a marketer.  Of course he says the latest stuff is the best, because that's what he's selling.  Those ungenerous folks, besides being ungenerous, also have Grant's brain inverted.  Grant designs the best possible bikes he can think of today.  He never tries to sell you on a bike.  He hopes you like the bikes he designs, but if you don't, that's totally fine.  If Grant thought the All-Rounder was the apex of anything, Rivendell would still offer them.  There is plenty subjectively special about the All-Rounder.  A builder whose name you've heard personally built it.  It has "Rivendell" on the downtube.  It has a geometry that looks like a 1990s bike.  None of those things make the bike objectively better, but make them desirable by enough people that the supply x demand curve makes them super valuable.  To me, the All-Rounder is among the nicest 1990s touring frames.  It's very very nice, and it is a classic.  It looks like a very good bike from the 1990s, and that's what it is.  

2.  " he felt the Rivs were in a different league. This makes me wonder if Grant would have a similar feeling about the All Rounder."

Yes, I assure you Grant thinks the All-Rounder and every early Riv model is much much nicer than anything Bridgestone USA ever sold.  

3.  " What's the verdict, is it truly one of the best Rivs out there?"  

No.  Not objectively "best".  Subjectively one of the most desirable for some people.  People who tend towards traditional, whose tastes have not evolved significantly over the last ~30 years.  

4. "Worth the price of admission if one is lucky enough to find one in their size?"

That depends on who is paying.  If you are going to ride the heck out of it and can afford one, absolutely.  If you are going to speculatively guess that it will appreciate in value, and you're going to flip it for a profit, maybe.  If you expect it to be much much faster than a current Rivendell, or much much more comfortable, or much much more efficient, or whatever, then NO.  Paying a premium for a 30 year old bike won't get you anything objectively better than a non-collectors bike.   If you have to financially suffer to get one, or have to handwring over whether it'll get scratched or stolen, then no, it's not worth it.  No bike is worth the price if the price makes you afraid to use it.  Some machines are worth collecting to collectors.  Rivendells are not among those.  One of the worst things one can do with a Rivendell is collect and preserve it.  Rivendells are for riding.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[George Rosselle]

I did not own and All Rounder but did have an Atlantis from the first batch. It was a beautiful bike and a pleasure to ride, but was a bit harsher than I would have liked. Maybe it would ride better loaded but I never rode it that way. I much prefer the ride of the Rosco Bubbe I have now. I think the changes Grant has made in the bikes over time is an improvement, as you would hope, not just changes for the sake of selling more bikes. If you find an All Rounder that fits for a good price it might be worth checking out, but there are so many similar bikes on the market now that are probably better for the same price, or less, that I would recommend keeping an open mind.

George in Loganville, GA

[Sean Steinle]

Thanks for the replies so far, wonderful stuff, this is exactly the sort of discussion I was hoping for. Unsurprisingly, the consensus so far seems to be what I thought from the start, a great bike, but less 'refined' than current Rivs, in the sense that Grant is always tweaking and making things closer to his current definitely of ideal. 

Bill, great points, and thanks for the reply, what I actually meant by point 2 was not whether Grant still feels like the All Rounder is better than the b-stones, but whether he feels like his current bikes are much superior to the All Rounder, in the same as he felt about the All Rounder compared to the b-stones back when he first started Riv. I think the answer to that is probably yes, or, like you poitned out, it'd still be an offering from them. 

[rlti...@gmail.com]

I have a custom All Rounder from 2000 and it’s a great bike. I still remember the way it felt descending at speed for the first time. It is great on the road as well as non-technical dirt.  I had mine built for canti brakes and I’m still happy with that choice.

The fork will clear a tire in the low 40 mm size. If I had it built today I would want it to accept wider tires.

Robert Tilley

San Diego, CA

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 17, 2022, at 6:50 AM, Sean Steinle <seans...@gmail.com> wrote:

I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I honestly can't find much about the All Rounder, in the way of ride reports, reviews, etc. It seems to be a Holy Grail bike for several, and I'm curious, is it simply the fact that they're rare and hard to find now, or is there truly something special about it? 

I remember Grant talking about the old Bridgestones in an article I came across, and his sentiment was essentially 'They're fine bikes, but they don't stack up against Rivs'. At least part of his reasoning was that he'd continued to refine with Rivendell, and the improvements were drastic enough that he felt the Rivs were in a different league. This makes me wonder if Grant would have a similar feeling about the All Rounder. I'd love to hear from those who own/have owned one. What's the verdict, is it truly one of the best Rivs out there? Worth the price of admission if one is lucky enough to find one in their size?

Thanks for humoring me :)

Sean in Kansas

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[Addison Wilhite]

I've raved for years about my Allrounder.  It does pretty much everything well or exceptionally well.  At least that I ask it to do.  The current iteration is attached.

And here is an old link/write up I did on it.

https://www.addisonwilhite.com/rambler/rivendell-allrounder-jack-of-all-tradesmast-of-most

I test rode a Hunq a few years ago and felt like my AR was the same bike.  I know the new Riv offerings are different animals but they don't speak to me the way  the AR does.  Still love and admire Riv the company of course.

Cheers,

Addison Wilhite, M.A. 

Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 

“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”

Portfolio and Blog

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[Ryan]

What Addison said!

In my mind, it's like the little black Chanel cocktail dress...a classic that never really goes out of style. Think of Audrey Hepburn in Breakfast at Tiffany's.

But of course, I too appreciate Riv's current offerings. Of course I'm keeping my 1997 Waterford-built AR. If I was going to buy another bike...not likely, but if...a Clem step-thru would be the ticket. I don't love the Boscos, and I would probably do as others have done and shed some rolling weight with 36-hole Deore LX/XT hubs, Velocity rims w db spokes and RH tires with the Endurance casing. And maybe a wider Brooks sprung saddle for the more upright position. Black or some other really understated color.

[Cyclofiend Jim]

In terms of lineage, the A/R was the refinement of the XO from the Bridgestone era, and begat the Atlantis. 
http://www.cyclofiend.com/Images/rbw/gen1/rivcat05_allrounder.jpg

http://www.cyclofiend.com/rbw/atlantis/index.html

- J

[Chris Zegers]

Hi  Sean,

I had a an early Waterford A/R which was ordered in 1994 and I recieved it in 1995 (Burnt orange with gray flannel). One of the best bikes I owned and the one bike I wish I would've kept. In fact, I have a Nobilette built Rivendell influenced by that  A/R w/700c wheels,  which reminds me alot of that first one, yet is quit a bit better with regard to fit, wheel size, tire clearance and ride.  If you can find one, go for it, I think they are  a classic riding, all road bike that was ahead of the time. In fact,  Jan Haine's ultimate all-road bike is very similarly styled, albeit with clearance for bigger tires as the early A/R's. Good luck.

Chris

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 6:50:18 AM UTC-7 Sean Steinle wrote:

[Tim Zowada]

I have been enjoying my 2000 All Rounder so much, I haven't been looking for anything else. It does everything I want. Sadly, That means I can't really compare it to current offerings.

In the past it was configured light and "sporty". These days, it is mostly set up for touring and trips to town. I "drank the Kool-aid" early on with a Bridgestone XO-3. I've always had mustache bars and a brooks saddle on it. I recently replaced the sprung saddle with my old BOB George Flegg B-17. It seems I am thoroughly, and happily, stuck in the 90's.  :)

I do find the bars getting higher, as I get older...

I must admit, I haven't' been following values as I have no desire to sell it. 

Below are a few crummy iPhone photos.

[Patrick Moore]

The All Rounder like the XO-1 before it gets a lot of interest and praise, but I think that, like the XO-1 that preceeded it, it is an early design that has been superseded and bettered by later Grantian bikes, starting with the Atlantis and continuing with the Sam Hillborne and doubtless the more recent models.

I say this having owned an XO-1 and having bought a custom Road based on the All Rounder, with lighter (753) tubing and slightly more upright hta (IIRC). My 1999 and 2003 Road customs, also built for 26" wheels, are better "All Round" both on pavement and in dirt than either XO-1 and the first Road custom, with much longer chainstays, slightly sacker head, and upsloping tts with extended head tubes. 

I say again that the later Road customs ride better on dirt, particularly sandy surfaces, than the XO-1 and the first gen, AR-based road custom.

I think -- but I am open to reasoned rebuttal -- that an Atlantis or Sam Hill would be better for all round riding than either XOs or ARs.

[m f]

Hi - I'm new here! Not sure how many of you saw this on eBay over the past few months, but I was able to work with the seller and found a way to buy this 2000 All-Rounder (Curt Goodrich). I have a couple updates in mind (sweptback handlebar, Brooks saddle), but those will happen with time. First step will be new tires and tuning the mechanicals (Dura Ace except for crankset) so I can get a ride or two under my belt. If the seller is in this group - thanks again for all the help!

Questions for the group: 

It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special request to not have them?

What are the markers that indicate the frame was painted at Joe Bell's shop?

[Andrew Letton]

Nice bike!

My All-Rounder and Road Standard have Joe Bell paint and both have the JB logo on the left chainstay like this:

cheers,

Andrew in Sydney

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[James Valiensi]

Hi,

When I ordered my custom Rivendell in 2002 I requested rack mounts on the fork blades. They hadn’t done this before. I had to send a drawing showing what I wanted. They agreed and Curt Goodrich made my frame. Joe Stark was supposed to be my builder, but he went of the reversvation before he started on it. I met Curt a few times and I’m super happy with his work. 

So, front rack mounts were not part of the normal Rivendell catalog 20 years ago.

James

On Mar 10, 2023, at 11:31 AM, m f <rockthr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi - I'm new here! Not sure how many of you saw this on eBay over the past few months, but I was able to work with the seller and found a way to buy this 2000 All-Rounder (Curt Goodrich). I have a couple updates in mind (sweptback handlebar, Brooks saddle), but those will happen with time. First step will be new tires and tuning the mechanicals (Dura Ace except for crankset) so I can get a ride or two under my belt. If the seller is in this group - thanks again for all the help!

Questions for the group: 

It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special request to not have them?

What are the markers that indicate the frame was painted at Joe Bell's shop?

<s-l1600.jpg>

On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 8:09:10 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

The All Rounder like the XO-1 before it gets a lot of interest and praise, but I think that, like the XO-1 that preceeded it, it is an early design that has been superseded and bettered by later Grantian bikes, starting with the Atlantis and continuing with the Sam Hillborne and doubtless the more recent models.

I say this having owned an XO-1 and having bought a custom Road based on the All Rounder, with lighter (753) tubing and slightly more upright hta (IIRC). My 1999 and 2003 Road customs, also built for 26" wheels, are better "All Round" both on pavement and in dirt than either XO-1 and the first Road custom, with much longer chainstays, slightly sacker head, and upsloping tts with extended head tubes. 

I say again that the later Road customs ride better on dirt, particularly sandy surfaces, than the XO-1 and the first gen, AR-based road custom.

I think -- but I am open to reasoned rebuttal -- that an Atlantis or Sam Hill would be better for all round riding than either XOs or ARs.

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<s-l1600.jpg>

[Andrew Letton]

My Joe Stark '99 All-Rounder has rack mounts on the fork blades.  

Was it maybe just that Curt had not yet done rack mounts on the fork blades for Rivs at that point?

cheers,

Andrew in Sydney

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/17A22128-5B1C-4A82-8AE9-4954C2DE769D%40gmail.com

.

[Junes]

Hi m f, welcome! Congrats on the bike. 

Regarding your question: 

It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special request to not have them?

It’s not totally unusual for Rivs, particularly early-ish ones, to have forks devoid of rack mount eyelets. Two of my Rivs don’t have them, one an Atlantis, explicitly positioned as an all-rounder, and one a Glorius. (Incidentally both were Toyo built.) In an early Atlantis brochure, Grant even wrote that a lack of such fork eyelets is better because using clamps to attach rack struts to forks is superior. All recent Rivs have eyelets galore, though.  

On Mar 22, 2023, at 19:08, Andrew Letton <let...@flash.net> wrote:



Nice bike!

My All-Rounder and Road Standard have Joe Bell paint and both have the JB logo on the left chainstay like this:

<1679526443662blob.jpg>

cheers,

Andrew in Sydney

On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 10:03:03 AM GMT+11, m f <rockthr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi - I'm new here! Not sure how many of you saw this on eBay over the past few months, but I was able to work with the seller and found a way to buy this 2000 All-Rounder (Curt Goodrich). I have a couple updates in mind (sweptback handlebar, Brooks saddle), but those will happen with time. First step will be new tires and tuning the mechanicals (Dura Ace except for crankset) so I can get a ride or two under my belt. If the seller is in this group - thanks again for all the help!

Questions for the group: 

It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special request to not have them?

What are the markers that indicate the frame was painted at Joe Bell's shop?

<s-l1600.jpg>

On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 8:09:10 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

The All Rounder like the XO-1 before it gets a lot of interest and praise, but I think that, like the XO-1 that preceeded it, it is an early design that has been superseded and bettered by later Grantian bikes, starting with the Atlantis and continuing with the Sam Hillborne and doubtless the more recent models.

I say this having owned an XO-1 and having bought a custom Road based on the All Rounder, with lighter (753) tubing and slightly more upright hta (IIRC). My 1999 and 2003 Road customs, also built for 26" wheels, are better "All Round" both on pavement and in dirt than either XO-1 and the first Road custom, with much longer chainstays, slightly sacker head, and upsloping tts with extended head tubes. 

I say again that the later Road customs ride better on dirt, particularly sandy surfaces, than the XO-1 and the first gen, AR-based road custom.

I think -- but I am open to reasoned rebuttal -- that an Atlantis or Sam Hill would be better for all round riding than either XOs or ARs.

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<1679526443662blob.jpg>

<s-l1600.jpg>

[Brian Turner]

I’d be curious to hear what sort of justification Grant had for claiming that p-clamps were superior to actual mid-fork braze ons. To me, a fixed mounting point seems like a secure no-brainer… less fiddly bits, no unsightly black rubber, and it looks so much cleaner.

But then again, it wouldn’t surprise me either way.

On Mar 22, 2023, at 8:15 PM, Junes <junes...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[R. Alexis]

Hello all. 

I don't have an All Rounder, but I do have the first generation Waterford built Rivendell Mountain. Those first generation Rivendell Road, Allrounder and Mountain offered several options when ordering. Rack mount placement, Headtube extention, cream painted accent headtube, etc. I remember when ordering and mulling over things asking Grant about getting the bike built with KGB(Koski, Guy, Breezer) hooded drop outs on the frame and rollercam mounts. He gave a had no on the Breezer drop outs, but did offer to do the rollercam brake mounts. I ended up just doing standard canti brakes. 

Although a lot of the features offered on later Rivendells are nice, the more time passes, the more I am less likely to give up my Rivendell Mountain. It is still configured the way I built it originally. I have changed out things, just to change them back. Swapped out the Suntour XC-Pro thumb shifters for XC-Pro Wishbone shifters, then changed back. Changed out the Wilderness Trail Bikes SST saddle for a Brooks B17, then changed back. I did finally swap out the Ritchey CrossBite 1.5 tires for Schwalbe Sammy Slick and changed the Profile Design Kage for a Tallac Duel stainless steel bottle cage.  I have not ridden any current Rivendell offerings. Don't know that I have ridden any other Rivendell offering, other than my Mountain. 

I do have a Bridgestone 1991 MB-0(Zip), 1993 XO-1 and 1994 MB-1. I enjoy riding my MB-1 and XO-1 when I pull them out. 

I am a bit skeptical on the whole long wheelbase iteration that are the new Rivs. That is mostly an issue of being used to a less long wheelbase. Pretty sure they ride fine. 

Thanks,

Reginald Alexis

[Joe Bernard]

Long wheelbase: I've ridden a bunch of both, they're both good but my custom is a longbike cuz it's MAGIC. 

What Grant's opinion was 20-25 years ago: has changed on a bunch of stuff. The first iteration of Atlantis didn't come with mid-fork mounts, now just about everything from the company does. He changed his mind. 

[rlti...@gmail.com]

I received my custom All Rounder in 2021 and I recall that braze-ons were worked out during the planning phase.  I spec’d mine with mid-fork mounts but it was up to the buyer. 

Robert Tilley

San Diego, CA

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 22, 2023, at 4:03 PM, m f <rockthr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi - I'm new here! Not sure how many of you saw this on eBay over the past few months, but I was able to work with the seller and found a way to buy this 2000 All-Rounder (Curt Goodrich). I have a couple updates in mind (sweptback handlebar, Brooks saddle), but those will happen with time. First step will be new tires and tuning the mechanicals (Dura Ace except for crankset) so I can get a ride or two under my belt. If the seller is in this group - thanks again for all the help!

Questions for the group: 

It seems odd to find an All Rounder, or any Riv for that matter, without rack mounts on the upper/mid fork blade. Would this have been a special request to not have them?

What are the markers that indicate the frame was painted at Joe Bell's shop?

<s-l1600.jpg>

On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 8:09:10 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

The All Rounder like the XO-1 before it gets a lot of interest and praise, but I think that, like the XO-1 that preceeded it, it is an early design that has been superseded and bettered by later Grantian bikes, starting with the Atlantis and continuing with the Sam Hillborne and doubtless the more recent models.

I say this having owned an XO-1 and having bought a custom Road based on the All Rounder, with lighter (753) tubing and slightly more upright hta (IIRC). My 1999 and 2003 Road customs, also built for 26" wheels, are better "All Round" both on pavement and in dirt than either XO-1 and the first Road custom, with much longer chainstays, slightly sacker head, and upsloping tts with extended head tubes. 

I say again that the later Road customs ride better on dirt, particularly sandy surfaces, than the XO-1 and the first gen, AR-based road custom.

I think -- but I am open to reasoned rebuttal -- that an Atlantis or Sam Hill would be better for all round riding than either XOs or ARs.

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<s-l1600.jpg>

[rlti...@gmail.com]

When I ordered my custom Riv I requested mounts for a front rack. Grant stated it was tough to place the braze-ons since each rack has unique attachment points. We settled on a location that works with the Nitto mini rack.  

So maybe Grant feels p-clamps are able to work around various rack mounting positions?

Robert Tilley

San Diego, CA 

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 22, 2023, at 5:27 PM, Brian Turner <brok...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Joe Bernard]

I could see that being a conversation in 2001. By the time I was drawing up my custom in 2019 Rivs had been running the Mark's Rack location for so long that when I specified "the mid-fork braze-ons" Grant knew what I meant. If I'd wanted something different to match traditional low-rider racks I would have made sure I was clear about it. 

[Greg J]

My recollection from one of the early Readers was that Grant felt that p-clamps worked just fine, and they didn't lock you into a single type of racks/fenders/what have you.  A big part of the Riv philosophy is that these frames can be used for a long time and are not encumbered by fashion.  As others have noted, all racks are different, and it would be a pain (and a lot more work) to braze-on attachment points, only to have them be useless because the rack doesn't fit or the style of racks change (e.g., shift from front panniers to baskets).  Now, maybe due to customer demand, Rivs do have braze-ons, but he has gone the opposite direction of having multiple sets of braze-ons still in an effort to make them flexible for different rack systems.  

Also, I think generally, Grant's aesthetic runs more towards the utilitarian-DIY-strap things on with wires and straps, rather than the perfect fender lines and perfectly-placed braze-ons for custom racks of Jan's rando bikes.

[Steven Sweedler]

I wonder when Nitto introduced the flexible strut mounts (Mark’s rack) vs. the rigid struts of the rack on Robert  Tilleys AR. The 700 c AR that I had came with the same rack as Roberts. Bruce Gordon’s mid rack mounts were not compatible with that Nitto rack. Steve

On Thu, Mar 23, 2023 at 8:22 AM Greg J <greg...@gmail.com> wrote:

My recollection from one of the early Readers was that Grant felt that p-clamps worked just fine, and they offered more flexibility.  A big part of the Riv philosophy is that these frames can be used for a long time and are not encumbered by fashion.  As others have noted, all racks are different, and it would be a pain (and a lot more work) to braze-on attachment points, only to have them be useless because the rack doesn't fit or the style of racks change (e.g., shift from front panniers to baskets).  Now, maybe due to customer demand, I think Rivs have many braze-ons, so now he is going the opposite direction of having multiple sets of braze-ons still in an effort to make them flexible for different rack systems.  

Also, I think generally, Grant's aesthetic runs more towards the utilitarian-DIY-strap things on by wire and straps, rather than the perfect fender lines and perfectly-placed braze-ons for custom racks of Jan's rando bikes.

On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 5:27:19 PM UTC-7 brok...@gmail.com wrote:

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Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

[James Valiensi]

Hi,

Well that is interesting. I had the impression they hadn’t done the rack mounts earlier, from the conversations I had with them when placing my order. Perhaps it was a rare request back then. 

Anyways - I am happy the mounts are more or less standard now a days, they are so useful!

That green bike is very nice.

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[J J]

Yep. Here's what was in the Atlantis brochure:

"Notice the front rack clamps on. Why no braze-on? Because different front racks have different braze-on locations, and we didn't want to rule out any front rack. The clamps work fine, and are compatible with any rack." 

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[Doug Van Cleve]

Pretty much what Joe said here, early RBW Waterford/Starck/Goodrich bikes generally only had seat stay mounts if that.  My '99 Starck RS only has dropout eyelets.  Very little about the current long chainstay, non-drop bar offerings relates at all to the early(ish) day designs.  I would say really the only constant is GP has always been an advocate of high bars...

Doug

[iamkeith]

I've mentioned numerous times before that my All Rounder somehow remains my go-to bike, no matter how many other road-ish bikes I acquire.   I'm really not entirely sure why, because, analyzing it objectively, it shouldn't be that way.  It really shows me how true it is that: (1) numbers are just numbers and you can't really tell how a bike is going to ride by looking at charts; and (2) you can get used to anything and familiarity probably trumps everything else.  Either that, or there's some voodoo going on.  There are some things that I really DO prefer about the All Rounder. Some random thoughts to explain:

1.  The AR comes from the era when there there were small, 1cm or 2cm frame size increments, so someone was more likely to get the precise size they needed, with no compromise.  I'm oddly-proportioned so I ALWAYS compromise, but I got lucky with this one.

2. Despite this, I am a true believer in the newer Rivendell geometries, with slacker headtubes, longer top tubes, longer chainstays.  I just happened to discover Rivendell before all of that happened, and spent a lot of time dialing in my bikes.  It's not worth the incremental improvement to replace them and go through all of that again at this point in my life, so I'm not likely to upgrade.  If I was to start over though, I totally think the the new geometries are better.  But with the current "expanded" sizing increments, I'd also more likely to end up with something that is  either just perfect or doesn't fit well at all.

3.  Related,: with teh benefit of age and wsdom, I now think that sloped top tubes and longer chainstays "look" right.  Classic, level (or almost-level) top tubes and short chainstays, like most of my bikes have - including the All Rounder -  now look silly to me.  They're function-follows-form.   But both are nice in their own way.

4. Counter-balancing this, I think small-diameter tires on big frame (mine is a 60cm) look really cool.  I know Grant doesn't though.   You have to remember that, when these and the XO-1 were made, 26" wheels were the ONLY way to get fat tires.  I can fit Rat Trap Pass tires or, currently 2..1 gravel kings with no problem, but they're a bit tight under fenders.   I have some 1.95 Sim work Homage tires coming from Conway.  Maybe they'll be the goldilox size.

5.  Nonetheless, I really, really like the way 26" wheels - with a lower gyroscopic center of gravity and less mass to spin up - work on a road bike.  But, aside from Patrick, I might be alone in this.

6. I like that there is no TCO, which is also a function of the smaller wheel.  The early Atlanitis, which replaced the AR, was known for TCO.  It wouldn't matter as much if the bike was ONLY used on the road, but once I head to a trail where I need to make lots of slow-speed, corrective steering maneuvers, it matters.

7. The craftsmanship on my AR, by Joe Starck and Joe Bell, is head-and-shoulders above any of my off-the-shelf models.   None of them are bad, of course, but it's a thing of beauty.  Someone would only notice when looking closely though.

8.  The AR is heavy and stiff by comparison to my Rambouillet, Saluki, XO-1, RB-1 or Hakkalugi, or even some of my mountain bikes tha are set up road-style, but  I don't care in practice.  It's never enough to make me NOT choose the bike.

I'll probably regret this, but I'm just finishing an extensive revamp of my AR.  New cockpit, new bags, new tires. new rear rack.  As case in point, I just wasn't riding my other bikes enough, so I'm trying to make the AR something different in order to encourage me to use those others.   I swapped the moustache for a choco, and will now only have moustache bars on the saluki and XO-1.   I'll post some pictures when done.  In the meantime, here's one I've posted before, of the way it looked until now.

[Steven Sweedler]

Keith, very nice AR, i’m another who prefers 26” wheels.   Steve

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[Doug Van Cleve]

Another plus, in 2023, is that most folks looking at pics of that bike probably assume those are 29er or 27.5 wheels and it belongs to a GIANT ;^)

Doug

[Ryan]

Classic! Do post when you're done. I'd love to see pictures of your X0-1 too, if you care to share

Coleman Green? My 1997 A/R - waterford-built was painted Sherwood Green before Grant started using custom builders...but craftsmanship is definitely a few rungs above its X0-1 predecessor and the ride feel is plusher than the X0-1

[ascpgh]

Sean, I'm biased because I had an XO and was happy with its versatility and ability to run tires up to 1.9" but the real test came when I agreed to join a group of three others to ride the TransAm in credit card mode in the summer of 2002. What you interpret the AR to be depends a lot on what your intentions and riding are. Any time you start to ride places, distances or terrain differently your outlook will change how you view different bikes.

I didn't need  much baggage for the TransAm but the daily mileage (including through Kansas) took the XO well out of its "do-it-all" element and my RB-1 stock geometry "close enough" fit was OK for sporty rides less than 4-5 hours, not more than that. I was anticipating 6-10 hours riding each day.

With my XO and my RB-1 disqualified, I talked to Grant about options. My long for my height legs don't fit stock seat tube/ top tube production geometries well. He was cool about the Riv Road for my needs and positioned the AR as being much refined from but still towards my XO's envelope and brought up the in-stock Atlantis as a tour load bike. He agreed that it would be a good solution but after the cross country ride I would have a bike of a little heavier of tubing than my regular riding made necessary and he mentioned a second production model,  the Rambouillet. Both of these production models fell between my XO and RB, as well as RBW's AR and Road models.

When the Audax-inspired Rambouillet arrived it and the Atlantis covered a wide range of cycling. Grant advised saddlebag loading and a Carradice Nelson Longflap as about as big as you would want to carry on the Rambouillet, the Atlantis obviously more capable of burden. It was intended for long rides with light provisioning, frame fixtures telling the story; three bottle cages, single (fender) eyelets on front and rear dropouts, no rack eyelets on the fork, a pair of inboard threaded rack mounts on the seat stays. This lead to some odd combination fender/rear rack long leg installations and discussions about P-clamp short leg rear racks. It came with 33.3mm tires which fit under fenders, without them tires (advertised as) 38mm would fit

I mounted fenders and used a Bagman saddle support for the Nelson Longflap and headed west across the country. At times I was carried more than advised and handling suffered a bit but overall it was so great of a ride with that loading that I rode it for twenty years and in some different circumstances before I had enough observations of shortcomings I incorporated specifically in a custom that accurately addressed them, namely more tire, more balanced distribution of F-R weight of loaded bike+rider, and access to bag while riding. 

In April of 2012 a group of RBW owners met in Cumberland, MD to ride the GAP. Warm sunny weather that Friday but a N'orEaster was threatening the coast, many possible weather permutations and overnighting in Confluence, PA motivated me to carry more on the Rambouillet so I added a small rando-style front bag supported by a TA front rack with P-clamps. The front load enhanced the bike's inherent wheel flop, a product of HTA + offset and overweighting of the steering. Folks can do any outfitting they want to any bike and suffer what doesn't work too well if utility (or fashion) outweighs the intrinsic goodness of a bike's basic handling. You can start with any old $100 used bike from Marketplace, Craigslist or the 'Bay if utter utility outweighs handling.

When imagining the grail, idealization of its perfection glorifies it and motivates its quest but that leads to disappointment when the realized thing doesn't live up to its objectification. You have to begin with parameters to avoid rationalizations once you have it in hand. I built a mountain bike that way and in the time it took me to  collect, save and toil to build it, suspension evolution rendered its hardtail frame second tier on the trail, no matter how much effort and skill were applied. OEM box bikes were better on the trail in the hands of riders much more novice than me. It almost fully funded my Rambouillet when I sold it.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Ted Durant]

As others have mentioned, talking about the All Rounder starts with the XO-n bikes from Bridgestone. Grant's daily commute between Walnut Creek and Bridgestone was a mix of paved and unpaved roads and trails over some pretty large hills.  I would make a strong argument that the XO-n bikes were the first production gravel bikes, designed to be equally at home on the road and the trails. They hit that mark well, but the original XO-1, which I had, didn't have clearance for big enough tires. The second version, with cantilever brakes, helped that a fair amount, but the 26" tire selection back then wasn't fabulous (and is arguably even worse, today). The Rivendell All Rounder marginally improved on the design. 

Fast forward to today, and I would argue that the Sam Hillborne I just got is the state-of-the-art All Rounder from Rivendell. I did a couple hundred km or riding in my week in LA, much of it road, but one ride quite a lot of dirt road and hiking trail. I had no trouble staying in the front group on steep, paved climbs, I was perfectly comfortable on flat, headwind slogs, and I had a blast on the dirt. Any anxiety I felt descending a narrow hiking trail was due to my lack of familiarity with the trail, not the bike. Tires are 584-48 Gravel King, imo the right size for my kind of All Rounder riding, though on the trail I might have wished for knobs. The long-ish chainstays add a lot in terms of handling and comfort. 

Front end geometry is going to be different between the old XO-n / Riv All Rounder and current Riv "all rounders", with notably slacker head angles. That can mean more wheel flop, which a lot of people don't like, especially when carrying weight up front. I found that, on my new Sam, a little weight in the handlebar bag isn't a problem and I didn't feel much flop on slow climbs on steep dirt. I also found that on curvy descents the Sam was much more predictable than, say, my Bleriot which had theoretically a similar front end.

So, getting back to Rivendell All Rounders ... I think a lot of their appeal is they are viewed as a significant part of what made Grant/Bridgestone/Rivendell stand out back in the '90's. They really were a unique offering back then. After my aluminum Trek MTB was stolen, I went to several bike shops saying, "I want a steel-framed road bike on 26" wheels with room for chubby tires for commuting." Finally as I was leaving yet another shop the owner said, "Oh, wait, the new Bridgestone catalog just arrived and I think they have something like that." I looked at the XO-1 (in purple, no less!),  handed him my credit card, and I haven't looked back. 

And, what a great thread that we get a Tim Zowada sighting! Check out the brake lever hoods on that bike, folks. Tim, I think you stick with mustache bars just so you can have 4 of those hoods on the bike ;-)

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI USA

[iamkeith]

For interest's sake, here's the original order form from when my AR was built, indicating available and buyer-selected options.  At the time (mid 1998 originally, but  mid 1999, by the time it was finalized), it looks like the mid-fork blade braze-ons were called "low-rider" rack mounts.  I've always thought that the nitto campee mini-rack was a Rivendell design, and may have happened later than this, and been designed to be backward compatible for older frames that selected this option.  That would explain why only some older frames don't have them, but most new ones do.

[vernon brooks]

I have been working on building up a recently purchased what I believe to be AR frame. I don't know much aside from it belonged to a guy in the St Louis area that had passed away. There is a date (4/30/2004) written on the fork in permanent marker and a partly visible serial number that is under the plastic cable guide on the lower part of the bottom bracket lug. The paint is very nice for a nearly 20 year old frame but thats what you get with a JB paint job. It has been fun sorting through parts I mostly had already and piecing this one together. Rich from Riv did build up a nice new set of wheels. Typically I put drop bars on my bikes but I decided to try something a little different this time. I'll include a picture of the current setup I am running. The 26X2.22 tires are maybe a little too snug but are fun for the trails in my area.

Hope you all had a great weekend,

Vern in San Francisco

[lucky...@gmail.com]

Pretty bike, interesting that the Super Yummys are snug, I have them on my 2004 Atlantis and they fit great. For whatever reason I assumed the AR would be more roomy. 

On Mar 26, 2023, at 18:46, vernon brooks <plumber...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have been working on building up a recently purchased what I believe to be AR frame. I don't know much aside from it belonged to a guy in the St Louis area that had passed away. There is a date written in permanent marker (4/30/2004) on the fork in permIt marker and a partly visible serial number that is under the plastic cable guide on the lower part of the bottom bracket lug. The paint is very nice for a nearly 20 year old frame but thats what you get with a JB paint job. It has been fun sorting through parts I mostly had already and piecing this one together. Rich from Riv did build up a nice new set of wheels. Typically I put drop bars on my bikes but I decided to try something a little different this time. I'll include a picture of the current setup I am running. The 26X2.22 tires are maybe a little too snug but are fun for the trails in my area.

Hope you all had a great weekend,

Vern in San Francisco

 

<thumbnail_IMG_9856.jpg>

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<thumbnail_IMG_9856.jpg>

[Joe Bernard]

I wouldn't put too much stock in the date on the fork; the lugs, "speared" Rivendell decal and horizontal dropouts point to that frame being a pre-2000s All Rounder or possibly a Mountain..it's gorgeous! Clearances had widened by the time of your Atlantis. 

[Peter Adler]

Bruce Gordon's mid-fork mounts are intended for Bruce's lowrider front rack, and for nothing else >:-P

I built up my late lamented Raleigh International with BG front+rear racks, and had long intended to have contact points brazed on for them, along with pivot posts for centerpulls. I even sounded Bruce out once on whether he'd be willing to do the work ("only if I don't have to mess with the paint afterwards"). Bruce closed the shop before I got to it, then died, then I wrecked the Raleigh.

Bruce's attachment principles were similar to Grant's. He used metal+rubber P-clamps for forks without properly located midfork braze-ons (i.e., any fork he hadn't made), and used the twisted Erector set metal diving boards to attach the rear rack to the seat stays. I found this attachment method unacceptably ugly, and replaced the ugly-o P-clamps with Tubus fork clamps in front (on the Raleigh) and Tubus turnbuckles+rails+stainless steel seatstay clamps (the Raleigh had no rack attachment points). Made the thing look far more purpose-built. The one disadvantage was that the Tubus fork clamps pushed the sides of the rack out about 5mm from each leg, as they're really intended as attachment points for Tubus' own front racks. The BG rack sides are further inboard, to get the weight closer to the centerline.

I replaced the Raleigh with a Trek 720, which has midfork braze-ons. I was upset to discover that the attachment points on Bruce's rack were about 40mm above the fork's braze-ons, which were probably intended for the old Blackburn lowrider. I've got the whole mess held on with P-clamps now, but it ticks me off every time I think about it. Maybe someday I'll move the canti posts to work as centerpull pivots, and have midfork braze-ons put in the right location at the same time.

The big question is: Why aren't more racks made like the Mark's rack and the Nitto UD-1/UD-2 from Rene Herse? There have to be more people trying to retrofit racks to older frames with idiosyncratic attachment points. I've bought four different handlebar bag racks trying to fit the center brake hole-to-canti post on the Trek (sized for 27"). None of them work, because they're all designed for 700c.

Peter "arrrgh" Adler

Berkeley, CA/USA

[EverRed]

I ordered my AR in 1998 and got it in 1999.  Between ordering it and receiving it the maker changed from Joe Stark to Match.  GP wrote me a letter asking if it was okay to change.  I wanted to stay with Joe but since it wasn’t possible I accepted Match.

Mine is a 59 with 26 inch wheels but I think I would have preferred larger wheels for aesthetic reasons.

When I got it I was disappointed with the plain lugs (like on Plumber’s red AR above) but I ended up liking them better than the fancier lugs.  I think the simpler lugs were more in keeping with how I used it - touring and about town being the majority of my riding.

It was also supposed to fit a front rack - Riv supplied but I don’t remember which one - but it did not.  They sent me a replacement fork but the paint didn’t match so I ended up sending the rack and the replacement fork back.  I bought a Bruce Gordon lowrider from someone on the BOB list and that fit.

My only real complaint is that there is no provision for a fender attachment at the chain stay bridge.  I came up with a workable solution but it would have been nice to have a straightforward attachment point.  Soon after I got it GP wrote an article about how cool it was to attach fenders with wire ties and I’ve always wondered if that was because of the missing chain stay attachment point.

The frame is a little noodly when fully loaded but in a good way - I like the way it feels.  I have found that it shimmies when I use a handlebar bag although this might be because of a longish stem.  Having said that, the handlebars are level with the seat.

I still ride and enjoy it regularly but I have no experience of later Rivs so can’t offer a comparison.  I’ve used Mustache, Noodle, Randoneur and Porteur bars over the years.  The Porteurs are on it currently, I like the upright position but the ends are too close so I’ll be making another change sometime soon.

I’ve recently got a purpose built touring bike (Rodriguez Phinney Ridge) but I doubt if I’ll ever get rid of the AR.

John

[iamkeith]

Great first-hand info, John.  I'd love to see a photo of your bike.  From replies in this thread, and the timing they relay, I'm kind of starting to wonder if I don't have the last Joe Starck AR frame.  I missed the drama at the time but hope he's doing well.

[rlti...@gmail.com]

That’s strange. I received my All Rounder in June 2001 and it was a Starck build. He built it with 130 spacing in the rear rather than the 135 I specified so I had to take it back to him to fix it. He was local here and worked in the same building as Joe Bell. I still think about Joe Bell’s shop with all of the Riv and Sach’s  frames hanging on the walls…

Robert Tilley

San Diego, CA

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 29, 2023, at 9:06 AM, EverRed <joeyke...@gmail.com> wrote:

I ordered my AR in 1998 and got it in 1999.  Between ordering it and receiving it the maker changed from Joe Stark to Match.  GP wrote me a letter asking if it was okay to change.  I wanted to stay with Joe but since it wasn’t possible I accepted Match.

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[Joe Bernard]

Very strange. My memory is match was first - I think Starck was there at some point? - then he built on his own and for a while it was split between Starck and Curt Goodrich, then it was just Curt. 

Also this and that and the other thing happened, but I won't go over those old memories 😬

[EverRed]

these aren't great pictures but all I have without digging for too long

[EverRed]

[EverRed]

[EverRed]

[EverRed]

[Doug Van Cleve]

Match was definitely after Joe Starck, my recollection is they were brought online primarily because Joe could not keep up. While I was waiting for my bike, so around ‘99, the match announcement was made. I think match was making the relatively stock ones and Joe was making the more custom ones. Mine is standard geometry, but custom tube selection, and I requested that Joe make it if possible…

Regards, Doug

P.S.  I seem to recall that the match made bikes were brass brazed, the first time for Rivendell frames, IIRC.

[Joe Bernard]

Ok maybe I'm thinking that Starck worked at match before building Rivs. Beats me, there's a Joe Starck interview in a Reader that would explain stuff.