What shoes does your Riv wear?

[Ted W]

I’ve had tires on the brain this last week. I was thinking I might want to try something a little narrower on my Appaloosa so I’ve been a bit absorbed with that thought.

At the moment I run the SimWorks Super Yummy tire with the black sidewall in 29x2.25”. I previously had their 26x2.25” tan wall tires on a 26” build and absolutely loved them on that bike. Unfortunately, in the larger size, with the sort of riding I do (spirited, urban, all-road) I find the tires sluggish and a bit unpredictable at times. Combined with the 25mm wide rim I use, the tires measure to close to 60mm wide.

I was thinking about trying to find a tire with a more rounded profile and something that would be a bit narrower, somewhere in the 44-48mm range to start.

I’ve been looking primarily at the Rene Herse tires. I have a friend who runs the Pumpkin Ridge (650x42) tire on his bike of a similar purpose and absolutely loves them. I’ve used the Naches Pass (26x1.8) on another build and also liked them a lot, but found that despite being the “endurance” casing, they were very prone to small punctures and didn’t handle the typical road debris around where I ride very well; this is one of the reasons I’ve typically stuck with knobbier tires.

The ones on my short list are currently the  Manatash Ridge (700x42) and Oracle Ridge (700x48) tires from RH.

I’m curious to know and see what others on the list use and have liked. If you have pictures, I’d also love to see what they look like (particularly 42mm on frames like the Appaloosa).

— Ted

[Eliot Balogh]

I LOVE the Snoqualmie Pass 700x44 EL tires. I had some issues with leakage but it ended up being a tape issue and now they’re perfect. They have unbelievable rolling resistance and ride feel. They’re the best balance of speed and suppleness that seem to roll as fast as a skinny but have the suppleness of a fatty. I will cry long and hard if I ever have to give up on them (longevity isn’t great and some can be fussy tubeless). It sounds like you want some knobby goodness but if you’re just riding light gravel these could do the trick. 

For more aggressive tread I bought some Specialized Pathfinder Pro 700x42 which seem pretty good so far.

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[Matthew Williams]

I finally chose—and so far, am very happy with—the 700x50 Schwalbe G-One Overland on my Appaloosa.

[Ryan]

Like Ted i found compass 26 inch with standard casing flat prone and not appreciably better than the Pamela's they replaced.otoh  I like the compass 700 x 33 extra light 
stampede pass tires. Go figure

[Patrick Moore]

I recently installed 48 mm Soma Supple Vitesse SL 48s on my Matthews "road bike for dirt" and they "feel" as if they roll as well as the absolutely wonderful-roller ultralight (450 gram) 60 mm Schwalbe Big Ones that Schwalbe claimed at one point where their fastest rolling tires, bar none, including racing tires. The SL model seems no longer made but they still make the K model, with puncture belt, is still available for about $60 and has a very good rolling reputation too. The SLs measure 51.5 mm on my 27 mm IW Blunt SS rims at 23-25 psi, about 5 psi more than I put in the Big Ones.

Highly recommended. I mount them tubeless and use Orange Seal Endurance.

The SSVSLs not only roll very well but they gave this bike the handling that I had always wanted it to have: as close to that of a Rivendell road bike as possible given the fatter tires and somewhat offroad geometry (71.5* head, 55 mm rake); no more fast-corner slight understeer and slow-corner vagueness as with the Big Ones and even the squarer profile and also ~50 mm Schwalbe Furious Freds. The downside is that compared to the Big Ones and even the F Freds the bike tracks noticeably less stably in sand -- the front wanders more -- but that's a price I'll pay to get crisper handling on the pavement that makes up half of my riding on this bike.

As for flats: I use super light (175 gram) 28 mm RH Elk Passes and extralight (300 gram) 42 mm RH Naches Passes on other bikes and I ride securely amongst the goatheads with Orange Seal Regular in the lightweight (70 gram, 100 gram) 26X1 and 650B X 42 mm Schwalbe tubes)

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[Patrick Moore]

Eliot: I've considered the Snoqualmies as an alternative to my  no-longer-made Soma Supple Vitesse SLs (of which I have a small stash). The Somas are labeled 48 and measure 51.5 mm on my Blunt SS 35 mm OW rims and 50 seems a sweet spot for this bike.

How wide do your SPs measure in real world mms, and on what width of rim and at what tire pressure?

Thanks, Patrick

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[Patrick Moore]

Sheesh, forgot a main point, which is that the Somas have a nice rounded profile. See again downside in sand compared to squarer, also 50 mm, Furious Freds.

[Ted W]

Patrick,

The SSVSLs remind me of the Soma Shikoros that are currently available up to 700x48. Have you ever ridden these for comparison? They were originally on my list but I'd written them off due to the lack of tread (and in my mind, the associated puncture resistance).

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[Tom Wyland]

I've just switched out my Specialized Sawtooth 700x44 with Rene Herse 700x48 Hatcher Pass tires (standard casing). Both are folding bead tires with supple sidewalls.  I enjoy the extra width of the Hatcher Pass but I'm not convinced that they are worth twice the price yet (actually I got the Specialized tires for like $18/each).  I'll see how they fare on my suburban commute in the coming months. I suspect I'll have more flats but I'll be sure to report back here.

Tom

Reston, VA

[Eliot Balogh]

Most of the RH tires measure wider than advertised but I think the SP measure narrow. I’m pretty sure they were 42 or 43mm on a fairly wide rim (ENVE AG25 or Foundation 45) but I will double check when I get home. 

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[Eric Floden]

My old Bomba has Compass 700 x 44 on it and they are dreamy. I have some G-Ones (60s) in reserve.

EricF

Rainy SW BC 

[Patrick Moore]

Ted: I hadn't heard of the Shikoros; thanks. I looked the, up on Soma's site and also called up some reviews. Apparently the fattest ones are only 42 mm wide, and while the reviews were positive they weren't ecstatic as they were for the Supple Vitesse SL. The Shikoro is apparently more of a commuter tire with a puncture belt and therefore rather heavy (360 grams for the SSV SL, 450 grams for the fatter 60 mm Big One lightweight model). I prefer ultra supple and ultralight tires even on my errand bikes and have done well on them by riding with care and using good sealant. (I used to commute 15 or 16 miles 1-way across town on rough pavement with loads on 200 gram Specialized 26 X 1" Turbos and had fewer flats than with 240 gram 26 X 1.25 Paselas.)

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[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Eliot.

FWIW: Elk Passes labeled 32 measure 27 mm on 19 mm OW rims and 29 mm on 21 mm OW rims, with tubes, 50-60 psi; Naches Pass ELs labeled 42 mm measure 41-41.5 on 21 mm OW rims, tubes, 30-40 psi. I'm 170-175.

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[Ted W]

For what it's worth, RE: Shikoros, I was going off what Riv carries on the site: https://www.rivbike.com/products/soma-shikoro-tires?variant=31799845519471

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[Joe Bernard]

I don't know what 700c tire it translates to but I can confirm the Pumpkin Ridge is awesome. Around here the gravelly dirt I ride is about the same surface as the streets so I don't have much use for a slick tire. This one rolls surprisingly light and fast (standard casing) for a knobby, and doesn't puncture easy. I like em! 

Joe Bernard

[Patrick Moore]

I just read from the RBW page and remembered that I'd read it and considered the Shikoros before. I take it that the Shikoros are perhaps more like Jack Brown Greens than like RH extralights. 

I saw this again: There is a pervasive myth that thin, "supple" tire sidewalls are essential to a smooth and cushy ride. That is misleading at best, bullshit at worst. For a given tire volume and inflation pressure, a thinner tire casing will obviously flex more. But that also means that for any degree of rim protection (from bottoming out), you have to inflate it harder. For any given degree of measurable cush, you don't have to inflate a stiffer tire as much. Maybe 5psi less. This will give you the same absorption over a bump, and a more cut-resistant and sun-resistant tire. 

I have conscientiously pursued supple tire Nirvana years and I've been able to compare a fair number of supple, more supple, and less supple tires, and while as always YMMAWV, I conclude that thin, supple sidewalls do make a huge difference despite the reality that, yes, they require more air pressure and don't always feel smoother than thicker tires at lower pressures, but they also don't have that "how did I end up riding in molasses?" feel of thick tires at pressures low enough not to be jarring. 

I know, I recall swapping out 60 mm Schwalbe Big Apples for 60 mm Big Ones (the lightest model) and being disappointed that I had to pump the BOs to close to 20 psi versus the 15 I'd put in the BAs. 20 psi in paper thin supple tires means that they do ride no more smoothly over bumps than 15 psi heavy tires, but OTOH, the rolling quality is so far superior to forego comparison.

So sure, you can get a smooth ride with thick tires; I did with 622 X 60 and 559 X 60 Big Apples at 15 psi. But handling and rolling resistance ...? Sorry.

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[Ted W]

> I saw this again: There is a pervasive myth that thin, "supple" tire sidewalls are essential to a smooth and cushy ride. That is misleading at best, bullshit at worst. For a given tire volume and inflation pressure, a thinner tire casing will obviously flex more. But that also means that for any degree of rim protection (from bottoming out), you have to inflate it harder. For any given degree of measurable cush, you don't have to inflate a stiffer tire as much. Maybe 5psi less. This will give you the same absorption over a bump, and a more cut-resistant and sun-resistant tire.
>
> I have conscientiously pursued supple tire Nirvana years and I've been able to compare a fair number of supple, more supple, and less supple tires, and while as always YMMAWV, I conclude that thin, supple sidewalls do make a huge difference despite the reality that, yes, they require more air pressure and don't always feel smoother than thicker tires at lower pressures, but they also don't have that "how did I end up riding in molasses?" feel of thick tires at pressures low enough not to be jarring.

Grant is a very highly opinionated person and, like all highly opinionated people, should have their opinions considered with a healthy dose of salt on the side. I definitely agree with his "fuss less, ride more" mentality of bikes but there are definitely some aspects that I've also come to believe, for my own style of riding, make more of a difference than he gives credit; tires are one such area where I will have to agree to disagree with Grant.

I recently finished reading Jan's book The All-Road Bike Revolution and have read numerous studies by Silca on the effects of tire design and air pressure. The views expressed by these two sources more closely mirror my own experience and opinions on the subject. And while I don't think tires and tire pressure are the only things that should be considered, I think tires are one of the most important, interchangeable components on a bicycle that impacts the overall feel of the bike on a given surface so it makes sense to put more thought and attention in to it when all other bases are covered (bike fit, etc.).

I've ridden very comfortable, thick wall tires (WTB Thick Slicks, for those curious) as well as a number of different "performance" tires for both road and gravel and I can say with absolute certainty that you can definitely find comfortable tires with thicker sidewalls and less "supple" construction, but they are the exception. You will be hard pressed to be disappointed by the ride quality (not accounting for other factors) of a tire designed with a thinner, and more flexible sidewall.

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[Eliot Balogh]

I have yet to find a really supple tire that has any sort of off road tread. The Vittoria terreno dry came close in 650b. I do wonder about the Schwalbe G One RS. I need something fast on pavement with just enough grip to not feel extremely vague on loose stuff. 

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[Jeremy Till]

On my Rivendells I've noticed that, irrespective of the surface I'm riding on, I actually prefer the handling with larger knobby tires than with larger slick tires. This is true on both my Clem H (2016, first-gen) with 45-55mm tires and my Rambouillet (green, ~2006 as far as I can tell) with 36-38mm tires. My explanation for this is that Grant tends to design bikes with larger geometric trail. When you add in the pneumatic trail of larger slick tires, the whole thing can feel harder to turn. Knobby tires give you the same shock absorption while putting less rubber on the pavement, thus reducing the pneumatic trail. Jan Heine has noted this effect himself when comparing knobby and slick versions of his tires. 

My Rambouillet current wears RH (actually Compass, they're a few years old) Steilacoom 700x38 knobbies. My Clem H has 29x2.2 Specialized Fast Traks with the "Control" casing, which is an XC-oriented MTB tire with relatively minimal knobs that rolls well on pavement. In my experience there is no free lunch when it comes to supple casings and flats. Certainly the ride is better with things like the RH standard casing but my rate of flatting from glass and thorns goes up. Sealant and tubeless haven't been the solution, in my experience, and I run both of my Rivendells with tubes.  

Since Patrick was also mentioning them I will say that I've used both the 700x42 and 700x38 versions of the Soma Supple Vitesse EX on my Long Haul Trucker, which seems to handle better with large slicks than my Rivendells. Those are good tires with an acceptable flat rate for me. I also tried the 700x38 SL version on my Rambouillet and found that not only did I not like the handling, but the flat rate was excessive for me. Note that the only difference between the EX and SL Supple Vitesses is the thickness of the tread, with the EX having thicker treads. Unlike RH and other brands there is no difference in the casing between the lightweight and longer wearing versions. I believe that the Shikiro is the same tread as the Supple Vitesse EX with a heavier duty casing.  

Jeremy Till

Sacramento, CA

On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 8:26:17 AM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:

[Mark Schneider]

Looking at the bikes I have at my home, including the Rivs I'm almost entirely on Rene Herse tires. This includes an Umtanum Ridge the first knobby tire from them, I've tried, I'm impressed with the low noise and rolling resistance for such an aggressive tread. I feel that once you use them for a while, it's hard to ride anything else. I don't get flats too often, not in Half Moon Bay or in the Pescadero area. When I tried them a few years ago, I did really like the Supple Vitesse  in 700x42 on my Atlantis for a while. I do have a couple of Thuderburts in the mix and I have no complaints, but once they wear out...

I haven't tried the tires from Ultradynamico, or Sim Works yet, but I might dip my toe in at some point.

[Richard Rose]

I cannot recommend enough the Simworks Homage. Mine are 27.5 x 55 and are equally at home on tarmac, gravel and mild dirt. Supple enough, durable & dare I say at least as quiet as Fleecer Ridge tires I tried. The 700 version is only available in the narrower 43mm which I bet is lovely. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 2, 2023, at 5:41 PM, Mark Schneider <mark...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[DavidP]

My Platypus has Gravel King SK 700x50s under VO 63mm fenders. On Cliffhanger rims the tires measure a true 2". I've found the Gravel King SKs to be surprisingly good on pavement - comparable to RH endurance casing knobbies - and to have plenty of traction for dirt trails. It sounds like you are wanting a more road oriented tire/width, maybe the Gravel King SS in 700x43 would suit. If you're worried about a 42-48mm tire looking too meager, throw some fenders on - they'll hide the skinny tire, fill the space, and keep you and the bike dry and clean.

My (non-Riv) rough stuff road bike has 650x48s; a smooth Paris Moto rear and a knobby RH Juniper Ridge up front. The front knobby has kept traction through slick mud patches that caused the rear to slide a bit. I quite like the combination (it at least feels a bit more optimized in my mind) compared to knobby front and back. This bike is setup tubeless in the back to help with punctures.

-Dave

[Ted W]

I’m not sure I’d say meager but I am curious to see what a skinnier tire on an Appa made to house some chunky tires would look like with something a bit smaller. Oddly, I searched around before posting the question here and found examples at the extreme ends with some wearing 30-35mm tires and others with the “typical” 50-55s but a surprising lack of examples fitted with tires in the 44-48mm range which really just has me wondering why that was.

Regarding the Gravel Kings I had the 32mm SS tires on my road bike for a time and they did feel nice. My only complaint about them is the same as with the smooth RH tires; they get little pinhole punctures. The SKs look nice, and I’ve heard good things. Main issue in the past had been availability. They were hard to find the last few years, maybe that’s changed now that supply chains have normalized a bit and the COVID bike boom has slowed.

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[Ted W]

Jeremy,

You make a good point about the geometric and pneumatic trail and the possibility that Grant designed his frames around a knobbier, more general purpose, tire thus building the frames with more geometric trail. I’d love to ask Grant that question to know if it was happy coincidence that they ended up that way or if the design choice was really that intentional.

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[Mack Penner]

Hi Ted,

Here's my Joe in its most recent form with 700x43 Gravel King SKs (which I like) and SKS P45 fenders. I also ran bigger tires before, but I've been liking this setup lots. 

Mack 

[velomann]

My Hillborne is currently running Panaracer ProTite 650b x 42. I've used various Protite tires over the years in 26" and 700, and find that for mixed terrain (mostly pavement, some gravel, a little single-track, and lots of urban commuting) these tires are fantastic. The same tread pattern as Paselas with good grippy tread but not knobby. I'm also a big fan of the Gravelkings and Gravelking SKs, but I find the regular Gravelkings are fairly flat-prone for city commuting, and the SKs are a bit slower on pavement.

I absolutely love the performance of Rene Herse Babyshoe Pass tires (650 x 42) but find that after about 1K miles, I start getting constant flats, and can't justify $75 for a tire that only gets that kind of mileage unless I'm just using them for touring.

Mike M

On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 8:26:17 AM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:

[exliontamer]

My bikes:

Toyo Atlantis - 700x42 Continental Contact Speed

Cheviot - 700x38 Blue Lug Fairweather Cruise

Katie's bikes:

Platypus - 650x42 RH Babyshoe Pass

Roadini - 700x35 RH Bon Jon Pass

[Brian Turner]

Here’s what I’m running:

Gus - 27.5 x 2.5” Teravail Ehline

Toyo Atlantis - 26” x 1.8” RH Naches Pass

I’ve been super impressed with the Teravail Ehlines. Sure, it’s a burly dirt / gravel tire, but they roll surprisingly fast and quiet on pavement. Quieter than a set of Teravail Sparwoods that I have on another bike (those buzz like crazy). I’m at just under 1,000 mi on these Ehlines and it’s been mostly paved riding. The tread still looks great! I’m kinda shocked, actually.

On Oct 3, 2023, at 7:19 AM, exliontamer <rollu...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[greenteadrinkers]

My Hillborne is currently wearing a pair of center-slick 700 x 47 durable casing Teravail Washburn tires set up tubeless on Cliffhanger rims. So far no complaints. 

Scott

Amherst, MA

[Tom Wyland]

OK, somebody made the point about my Rene Herse 700x48s probably measuring small. Yes, they are more like 44mm wide on my Velocity Dyads.  For me the fenders always limit the tire size.  I ran 42mm tires max under my 50mm SKS fenders.  I just installed 63mm VO venders on my Platy and realized I fitted them for 44mm tires (because I thought they were 48s!).  The state max spec is 48mm tires with fenders for the Platy. I see that others have fitted 50mm tires under the VO fluted fenders. I guess I'll push my luck with a larger size (Gravel Kings?) when I wear out this RH set.  Hopefully I didn't cut down my fender stays too short.

[Jeremy Till]

I doubt that Grant was intentionally designing his bikes specifically to handle better with knobbier tires. I think it's more a product of his own views of how a bike should handle and the tires that were available/common at the time he designed the bike. On the first point, he's written a few times defending the virtues of geometric trail, perhaps as a response to challenges from Jan-Heine-o-philes who wanted him to design a low trail bike. On the second point, most of the tires we're discussing were nothing but a twinkle in Jan Heine or Panaracer's eyes when the Rambouillet was designed, and I think it probably handles best with 28-32mm road tires because that was considered downright obese for a road bike at the time. For the Clem, certainly that was designed closer to the contemporary golden age of fat tires, but I still remember most of the prototypes wearing something like a Schwalbe Big Ben, which has more of a blockier tread that probably reduces pneumatic trail compared to something like an RH slick. 

Jeremy Till 

Sacramento, CA

[Drew Saunders]

My Quickbeam is wearing Riv Jack Brown 700x33.3, which I over-inflate to 80psi so I don't have to inflate as often. It's my commuter. I should probably really run them at about 70psi, and fill them more often, but I'm lazy.

My 1999 Riv Custom was from when 700x28 were considered "fat meat" super-sized monster wide tires, compared to the standard 23mm. I have RH 700x28 Chinook Pass on it now, and I think they're more like 27mm. I also run those at 80psi, which is a more correct pressure for them and my weight. I used to run Riv Rolly-Poly 700x29, which really are 29mm wide. I think I could probably fit 31mm tires, so if the RH "Stampede Pass" 700x32 are also on the narrow side, they should fit. When my current tires wear down some more, I'll order the RH "32mm" tires and hope they fit. I've been quite happy with RH tires and don't get any more flats than other brands. Can't say they're "super supple" but they ride well. If those don't fit, I'll search for a pair of 30mm tires.

I have the 26x2.3" RH Humptulips Ridge on my 1998 Ibis, which is their dual-purpose knobby for 26" wheels. They're also nowhere near 2.3" wide. I had a 2.3" Bontrager on the front and a 2.1" Panaracer (Smoke, I think) on the back before, and these are just a wee wider than the 2.1" Panaracer. I find the grip to be almost as good as the "real" off-road tires, but the road rolling resistance is much lower. My 90's MTB is truly a "Gravel Bike" now!

RH slicks don't see to be all that much different to me than any other slick, but their dual-purpose knobby does seem very different than any other knobby I've ridden.

Drew

[Wesley]

In fact, I think it was Grant (or maybe Sheldon Brown?) who turned me onto the idea that wide tires are great, especially when they're NOT knobby. For the past 15 years, it's been Panaracer Paselas for my road bike and Schwalbe Big Apple/Fat Frank for my commute/errand bike. The idea that there are noticeable gains to be had from tubeless or RH tires seems like pure hype to me, but I may be wrong. Certainly the Schwalbe tires are crazy heavy and that must affect my acceleration. But once I'm up to speed, I doubt it matters.

-Wes

On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 8:41:57 AM UTC-7 Jeremy Till wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

As with gearing and saddles, so with tires; tastes vary vastly. I know experienced riders who can't be bothered to figure out their gears; if they can find a gear that is pretty good in most riding situations, they're happy -- they look blank when you ask them what rings and cogs they are using. Likewise with saddles: some love B 17s, others dislike them after much use.

I used the Big Apple for years and miles, 559 and 622, and for a very durable and flat resistant tire they roll very well indeed. Back when I was using up a box and a half or more (each box has 100 patches) of Remas each year I rarely had to patch tubes in my Big Apples because they'd resist 100% of goatheads when riding on dirt and 95% (those are metaphors, not measurements) on pavement). Recall often coming out of the bosque trails and skimming scores if not hundreds of goatheads off f and r Big Apples before hitting the pavement.

But the light version of the similarly sized Big One is day compared to the Big Apple's night. Schwalbe said it was their fastest rolling tire of all, including racing tires, back when they first came out. And: 450 digitally honest grams for a new (new!) 622 X true 60 mm tire! Versus 900 for the BA, 800 for the "Liteskin" version.

And the RH 26 X labeled 1.25 Elk Pass, 27 to 29 mm on road width rims. I switched to these from the very good Michelin Pro Race 4s, these in turn better than the Conti Grands Prix of the time (funny, retrospect, the MPR4 was about like the ~2000-era Specialized 26 X 1" Turbo); sorry,  no contest, the EP just require less effort to maintain a given cadence (and speed) in given gears in given conditions, repeatedly over the years.

I used 26 X 1.25 Paselas, non-Tourguard, light at 240 grams (a wee bit fatter at about 30 mm vs 27-29 mm for the EPs) but tho' not bad, they rate more or less like the 1.35" Kojaks with puncture belts, these in turn much like the Jack Brown Greens on my 2010 Sam Hillborne; decent but the EPs are altogether on a different level; together with the lightest Big Ones the best rolling tires I've used (tho' I'm still trying to decide if the Soma Supple Vitesse SL is as good or only nearly as good). The extralight Naches Passes don't "feel" as fast-rolling as the Elk Passes but they certainly feel faster than Kojaks or those Paselas, or than Tioga City Slickers or Fatboys; perhaps like the Michelin Pro Race 4s and Turbos.

[Peter Adler]

GK Slicks and Compass/RH slicks do get pinhole punctures, but tire pressure and tire age are both factors. All the Compass/RH tires I've ever ridden have been acquired used (I have a NIP Babyshoe Pass that I have yet to try), so the tread had cured at least a little bit before I got them. I have a set of Stampede Pass standards on my gofast wheelset that's rotated between four road bikes; I've put at least 2000 miles on them on city streets over the last 10 or so years, with two total flats. I'm typically running them at around 70 PSI, give or take.

Inspired by the longevity of these tires, I bought a new set of 700x35 GK Slicks (the weight is officially lighter than the BJP standards and heavier than the BJP extralights) for my Trek 720 pack mule, on the grounds that they were structurally identical to the corresponding RHes at half the price. I had ridden that tire set for about 500 miles (65-70 PSI) with one flat (rode over a carpet tack standing straight up on a poorly-lit street; an act of Road God), when I had a dramatic failure in a Christmas Eve night debacle, with three flats from glass slivers in a single block. Once I'd gotten the bike home, I stripped the GKs off for bad hoodoo, and replaced them with a set of used BJPs I'd had in my parts box as a replacement for the SPs on the gofast wheelset. The reliability difference was dramatic. Running at the same 65-70 PSI, I rode those used RH tires for 18 months and nearly 3000 miles before the next flat.

Over the last few months, I've flatted three or four times on the RHes; clearly, the tread has worn thin. I was discussing the issue with a repairman at one of the local bike kitchens. He mentioned that GK Slicks hold up fine, but it takes a while for the rubber to cure - several months, or several hundred miles. Although that's in keeping with bike tire traditions ("inflate your new tubulars on a rim and age them over the winter" et al), it had never occurred to me that my shiny-new tires might take a period of aging to be fully ready for road use. I've reinstalled the GKs and put about 250 miles on them without incident. Maybe the intervening 20 months has aged the rubber enough to stand up to small road hazards? Fingers crossed...

Peter "once bit" Adler

Berkeley, CA

[Piaw Na]

On Tuesday, October 3, 2023 at 3:27:09 PM UTC-7 divis...@gmail.com wrote:

Over the last few months, I've flatted three or four times on the RHes; clearly, the tread has worn thin. I was discussing the issue with a repairman at one of the local bike kitchens. He mentioned that GK Slicks hold up fine, but it takes a while for the rubber to cure - several months, or several hundred miles. Although that's in keeping with bike tire traditions ("inflate your new tubulars on a rim and age them over the winter" et al), it had never occurred to me that my shiny-new tires might take a period of aging to be fully ready for road use. I've reinstalled the GKs and put about 250 miles on them without incident. Maybe the intervening 20 months has aged the rubber enough to stand up to small road hazards? Fingers crossed...

That seems unlikely to be true. As for your unluckiness with flats, I think that's just a run of bad luck (running over glass at night). I have not noticed that new tires puncture any less frequently than old tires. I regularly run tires until the rubber wears away and I can see the nylon cords below.  What I do notice is that some tires (e.g., the Continental tires) have so much tread on them that the sidewalls are more likely to die than the tread to wear out. But that may be that I ride more off pavement on my tires than most, giving more opportunities to have cuts on the tire.

 

[Nick A.]

I just installed "cool weather boots" on my Atlantis, a set of Soma Cazadero 700x50. I do love the handling with these tires compared to the Soma SV 700x42s that were just on. It feels even more planted and solid with the wider rubber, which is great for the time of year when cold and wet come into play.

Nick

Falls Church VA

[Eric Marth]

Hi Ted — I like Rene Herse tires but refrain from recommending them simply because they're so darn expensive and the benefits of the casing might not be appreciated by all. I would just hate for someone to think "Eric recommended these expensive tires and I don't like 'em!" While I do enjoy them and stick with them I hesitate to tell anyone "You should run these tires!" Looks like you have some RH experience. If I was running the Super Yummys I'd be tempted to try the Antelope Hill...

I run the Rene Herse Antelope Hill 700x55 with endurance casing on my 54cm Appaloosa. I've had one flat in the past two years of riding paved roads, gravel roads, dirt and trails. They're pretty fun! I enjoy riding them on long rides with lots of climbing and paved and unpaved surfaces. Feels great up on my Appaloosa, the Original Steel Couch. I also find all the volume to be pretty nice running errands and doing stuff around town. 

On my Hillborne I run the Rene Herse Snoqualmie Pass 700x44. I've ridden standard casing and the extra-lights. Much prefer the feel and speed of the extra-lights though they are a bit more prone to punctures. Had plenty of flats with the standard casing as well. Almost always from road debris, glass specifically, though I have picked up thorns and wire. 

In terms of feel the RHs are great tires, especially in the EL and Endurance casings. I think the standard casing is just so-so. And again, the price is quite painful. I recently got a new set of Snoqualmie ELs for the Hillborne and it was $200 after shipping. 

My sample size is limited, I've only run Rene Herse tires on my Rivendells. 

[greenteadrinkers]

Eric - are you riding tubeless on your RH tires? If not, which tubes do you prefer?

- Scott

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

Continental Mountain King 29x2.2" on my Clem H - I wanted something with widely spaced knobs for better bite and confidence on some of our local mixed condition trails to replace the stock Kendas with smoother inverted tread.  I just picked them up during an REI sale a couple years ago.  Many of the main sections of our local trails have been paved since I made the tire change, to make them generally more accessible,  and has made the knobs feel excessive/unnecessary/ineffecient at times... until the unpaved conditions worsen after any series of storms and then I appreciate the knobs all over again!  

I've thought something like the SimWorks Homage would be worth trying but haven't necessarily wanted to go as narrow as 700x43 on the Clem.  We have an older and cheap Kenda 26x1.95" on one of my spouses bikes that is similar to the Homage (slick center with tall and widely spaced knobs on the sides only) and they seem to work well in our local parks so been thinking I'd at least get some of the 26" Homage (as replacements for the Kendas and also for my own 90's rigid MTB that's back in use after a long hiatus.)

I recall Schwalbe Thunder Burts receiving a lot of praise for striking a good balance between on and off road usage but have never personally used them and not sure what variety of them are even still available (and I've personally been somewhat overwhelmed with the number of Schwalbe variations within a single tire model.) Although, I did like one of their 700x35 Sammy Slick folding bead models on my more road oriented bikes but after a sidewall cut I packed them away as emergency spares (reminds me I still meant to try and repair the cut.)  

I replaced those Schwalbes with 700x32 GravelKings that I found in some of the fun colors (Pink SK and purple SS.)  On the same wheels I have also used Challenge Chicane 700x33mm 'open tubulars' which are just folding bead clinchers but supposedly with same sidewall carcass as their tubulars, I think.  I know some have reported mounting issues with these or similar Challenge tires and I was fortunate to have no issue with my own wheels but could note that whatever cotton/poly or other thread blend they use on the sidewalls, these feel so different (in texture) than any other tire I've used.  Different to the point it was actually pleasant to install them or repair flats (like sliding your thumbs along soft, velvety cotton canvas vs. gummy rubber!)  I think Challenge ended up making wider gravel options with the same kind of sideknobs as the Chicane so those are also on my shortlist for eventual replacements to research but at around $100/each at retail the last I looked I haven't been able to bring myself to even consider them again.  I think I scored them for around $50/each at discount when first getting my hands on the Chicanes and have pretty much stuck to $50/tire as a personal limit.

On my current 'basket bike' I have Continental SpeedRide or Contact Speed with a labeled 700x42mm but that measures an actual 38mm and maxes out clearance on this old 27">700c road bike>townie conversion.

On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 10:10:32 AM UTC-4 thetaper...@gmail.com wrote:

[Ted W]

Thanks for your thoughts, Eric!

I'm definitely aware of the RH price pain, it's one of the main reasons I hesitated to get the second set after the experience I had with the Naches Pass on my Surly. I believe the total after shipping came close to that $200 mark you mentioned for your Snoqualmie ELs. I'm interested in your suggestion about the Antelope HIll tires, though... It's quite possible that at the time I was riding the Naches Pass tires, I was still new to tubeless setups and may have been running them at a higher pressure and thus exposing them more readily to punctures. I have since begun running my Super Yummys somewhere just above 25lbs (not a super accurate pump) and have noticed that I've had fewer pinhole punctures, and less sealant "weeping" out from between the treads than I did on the previous pair of Super Yummys I had when I was running around 35lbs.

Also thought to mention, I do run these tubeless. It's one of my concesionssions to modernity on these otherwise retro grouch-y bikes; tubeless tires and clipless pedals. I've really come to love the self healing ability of sealant filled tires and the luxury of being able to repair larger holes with plugs, negating the need for a spare tube but still permitting the addition of a tube in my pack for longer self supported adventures. Clipless pedals are a carry over from my criterium racing days. I've ridden them for so long that it feels like I've forgotten something every time I've tried to swap to flats on any bike except a true town cruiser.

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[Eric Marth]

Ted & Scott: I do run tubes in my tires. The Antelopes at around 25lb and the Snoqualmies around 37lbs. The Appaloosa is like 37lbs unloaded, not sure about the Hillborne. I'm between 172 and 178 depending on the day. I run Giant brand tubes because that's what my LBS has in the correct size. I think I ran some of the lightweight Schwalbe tubes on my MB-2 with extra-light Rat Trap / Humptulips combo and never had a flat (tho I didn't ride that bike a ton). 

I have a very cheap Schwinn pump with an accurate pressure gauge. The readings match up to my Meiser low pressure gauge exactly. 

I've considered tubeless but haven't tried it. Appaloosa has Cliffhangers so no problems there. The Hillborne's on Atlas rims which aren't tubeless ready though I know it's been done before. 

[Matthew Williams]

Hi everyone,

I just got my second flat tire: a small chunk of glass pierced my brand-new rear Schwalbe G-One Overland. The tire had less than fifty miles on it.

In the past two months, I’ve had more flats with new tires than I had in the past three years with the Kenda tires that came stock from RBW.

What am I doing wrong? Do I need liners inside the tires, better/more durable tubes, different tires, or all three?

[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

Nothing can prevent glass flats unless you run heavy duty Schwalbe Marathons, and I've flatted with those as well. Just watch where you ride. That's the best protection from flats.

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[DavidP]

Matthew - What makes you think you are doing anything wrong (aside from running over glass (which isn't always avoidable)? The Kendas (assuming you had the Kwick 9s, which are Big Ben-ish in design and weight) likely had much thicker tread and casing and that's part of the trade-off with more supple tires - they aren't as armored.

What pressures are you running on those 700x50s? As Piaw alludes, flats aren't always preventable, but it seems that running pressures as low as reasonable helps.

-Dave

[ascpgh]

I've run 32mm RH Stampede Pass ELs with tubes on my '02 creamsicle Rambouillet since available. Yeah, I've had flats but they were a vast majority my problems, not the tires'. I've been startled by how thin I've worn them when changing them. Even had one that took a pothole hit near 40 MPH that blew out a spoke and destroyed the rim yet stayed mounted and inflated. I rode the rest of the day's community ride after I had my fortunately located mechanic replace the spoke and triage the remnants so they passed between my brake pads

 I think 32 is the apogee of the Rambouillet's handling and think it degrades when you go to the limits of frame and fork clearance, parallel with Jeremy's observations re: pneumatic trail. This is convenient for me since mine is fendered

To get more tire volume for unpaved surfaces w/o increasing toe overlap I had Johnny Coast build me a low trail rando frame and fork for 650B x 42 that also balanced the load of front and rear wheels by carrying loads on the front. I've run Babyshoe Pass standard casing, tubeless, and have not flatted since 2019 (now I am cursed in a wholesale way). 

So a Riv bike and a Jan Heine bike, each on RH. My Disc Trucker commuter has a pair of 700 x 38 Schwalbe Marathons of some description and vintage which never flat and make me long for riding either of my other bikes after I get off it.  

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 6:04 PM ascpgh <asc...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've run 32mm RH Stampede Pass ELs with tubes on my '02 creamsicle Rambouillet since available. Yeah, I've had flats but they were a vast majority my problems, not the tires'. I've been startled by how thin I've worn them when changing them. Even had one that took a pothole hit near 40 MPH that blew out a spoke and destroyed the rim yet stayed mounted and inflated. I rode the rest of the day's community ride after I had my fortunately located mechanic replace the spoke and triage the remnants so they passed between my brake pads

If you dented the rim the tire bottomed out which meant that the tire was under-inflated for how aggressively you're riding. The more aggressively you're riding the less the modern tire pressure calculators are helpful. Modern rims that are wide along with wider tires help a lot though.

 

So a Riv bike and a Jan Heine bike, each on RH. My Disc Trucker commuter has a pair of 700 x 38 Schwalbe Marathons of some description and vintage which never flat and make me long for riding either of my other bikes after I get off it.  

My tandem/triplet came with 700x32 Schwalbe Marathons. It rode terribly but since I was only taking my son to preschool I didn't mind so much. One day I got a flat (glass shard!) and I actually broke a tire lever getting the bead off so I could fix the flat.  After that I swapped to Michelin Pro Race 3s 700x28. You can't fool little kids. My then 4 year old took one ride after the tire replacement and said, "These are fast tires!" Since I'm the kind of person who can flat on Marathons (and I've flatted 2 rental bike tubeless tires over 7 days of rental!) I prioritize easy to repair tires over so-called flat-proof tires. I've unfortunately had plenty of experience fixing flats, so the flats don't bother me, though I do occasionally curse when I'm fixing a flat by the side of an expressway in the rain with trucks throwing up water over me.

[Patrick Moore]

Note that at least some modern sealants work very well in at least some very thin, supple tires. OS regular formula works as well or almost as well in lightweight tubes (70 gram Schwalbe 559X~23 mm tubes) in paper thin RH Elk Passes, and in lightweight tubes (100 gram Schwalbe 559/584X42mm tubes) in paper thin RH Naches Passes, as OS does in fat low pressure paper thin tires. These paper thin RH (and the original Paris Roubaix "open clincher) tires without sealant would go no more than 5 miles without a puncture here in goathead heaven but rarely flat with sealant -- I no longer buy ~2 boxes or Remas a year and in fact only buy the much more expensive patch kits from the LBS because of so-infrequent use.

I use OS Endurance in low pressure fat tires but prefer tubes in higher pressure RH road tires after reading several histories of RH road tires tires blowing off rims when used tubeless.

On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 10:21 AM Ted W <ted.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

... Also thought to mention, I do run these tubeless. It's one of my concesionssions to modernity on these otherwise retro grouch-y bikes; tubeless tires and clipless pedals. I've really come to love the self healing ability of sealant filled tires and the luxury of being able to repair larger holes with plugs, negating the need for a spare tube but still permitting the addition of a tube in my pack for longer self supported adventures.

[Patrick Moore]

Good sealant can prevent glass flats. Use a thicker tire or use sealant. Modern sealants work fine with tubes and tubeless against small holes from thorns and glass particles. I routinely ride through fields of glass shards and patches of goatheads on very lightweight tires and -- so far, so good.

[Patrick Moore]

There's no way you can pump a road tire high enough to prevent a dented rim when you hit a sharp-edged pothole (or, around here, 6" expansion cracks) at a high enough speed. I've done this myself even with tire overinflated.

On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 8:10 PM Piaw Na(藍俊彪) <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:

... If you dented the rim the tire bottomed out which meant that the tire was under-inflated for how aggressively you're riding.

[John Dewey]

In the Conti 5000 camp here @ 32mm. Ram + Ebisu (x2) + Waterford Paramount  — Saluki @ 38mm Pari-Moto

All comfortable, light, fast, reasonably durable + affordable.

Jock

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[John Dewey]

Patrick, no dented rims (fingers crossed) but picked up a NASTY roofing nail the other day.

SO grateful it — A: didn't pierce my rim — B: was rear & not front. Anyone out there have a similar nasty object poke a hole in a rim?

Jock

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[aeroperf]

My Sam came with Continental Tour Ride (not Ride Tour) tires in 2015, which I immediately swapped out for the Continental Speed Rides.  The Tour Rides were just too big - couldn’t fit under my fenders.

The Speed Rides were only $25, about one pound each, and felt so good at 50 psi that I bought 6 more.  I use them to this day on my two bikes.

Pros: price, weight, plush ride, excellent wear, never had a flat (though I ride a paved bike trail that seldom has enough FOD to get a flat).
Cons:  Continental only made them in 622x42, and then stopped making them, though you can still find them.

So: Continental Speed Ride with Conti Tour tubes on Velocity Atlas rims.

Photo: Speed Ride with 5000 miles on it - hit a piece of glass.  It went another 100 miles before I finally pitched it.

[st nick]

I'm running Soma Supple Vitesse EX in the 700 x 42 on my Sam Hillborne and like them a lot.

I think 380 g's for that size tire is not bad and the price is good.

I just saw on the Soma site they are no longer making that size. Here's their verbiage.

(Sizes: 28c to 42c 23c (no longer made)

I haven't had any flats yet on them after around 300 to 400 miles.

In my area I'm always dodging glass.

I can't figure the mindset of the goofballs that through glass out on the pavement.

Makes me want to cuss. Well, I do if I roll over it.

Someone else mentioned the Continental Contact Speed tires.

I used them on other bikes in a 26" and 700c size and liked them.

I guess they are discontinued now or at least hard to find. They wore very well for me.

Perhaps the Continental Contact Urban took over that spot.

I'm running the Contact Urban on bikes in a 26 x 2.20 and a 700c x 42 and they roll really well.

No flats after several hundred miles.

I only run with inner tubes in all my bikes ... haven't tried tubeless yet.

This rolling resistance review guy gave them pretty good marks and a highly recommend status.

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/tour-reviews/continental-contact-urban

Paul in Dallas 

[DavidP]

Paul - From https://www.somafab.com/archives/product/supple-vitesse-ex-700c-clincher-tire, original SV sizes were 23, 28, 33, 38, and 42. My interpretation is that Soma is continuing to make the 42mm SV and the statement you quoted should be read as the available sizes are now 28c to 42c, (23c no longer being made).

Best,

-Dave

[Chris L]

RH Antelope Hill in the Endurance casing on my 54cm Hunqapillar.  I'm a heavier rider and have to inflate the front to the max of 55 psi to keep it from feeling squirrely in turns and even then, it sometimes feels off.  Jan has talked about the effect of psi on cornering with supple tires and that it's more pronounced with wider tires, so I may try the 48's or even 44's, next.  

I need to get an updated photo with the black grips.  Looks SO MUCH better than the clear ones.  

[Ted W]

That squirrelly feeling is another thing I noticed with the Naches Pass on my Surly. It was actually the cause of a crash I had on that bike. Front end got all squirrelly on me mid corner and it felt like the front just flipped over on itself... I always attributed it to having stretched out the fit on a too-small frame (I’m 6’1” and bought a 54cm Long Haul Trucker to be able to have it in 26” wheels) and the us having shifted my center of gravity too far off the where the frame intended but having now heard a couple people here mention the feeling on the same slick tires, I’m wondering if it’s not the tires on more “touring” geometry frames, that pneumatic vs geometric trail thing that was mentioned earlier. Very interesting indeed!

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[Chris L]

" felt like the front just flipped over on itself"

That's a good description for what mine feels like.  I also notice they get really loud on sharp turns/curves when the tire is inflated to the psi that causes the bad handling.  The front tire doesn't do that when it's aired up very hard, but that largely negates the benefit of having a fat, supple tire.  I could run Big Apples at a much lower pressure and get the cushion effect without the squirrely front end handling, but they are just so heavy and both had a wobble in them, from the day I got them.  Not the first Schwalbe tires I've owned that wobbled, so I'm wary of the entire brand, now. 

[Patrick Moore]

This is very interesting. I use the extralight Naches Pass at 30-35 and 35-40 f/r depending on load, and I feel no flop or sidewall collapse; not until pressures drop below 20 psi. The NPs do feel more staid, less nimble in turn-in than the 28 mm Elk Pass, this on the same bikes, but not at all squirrelly. They do make those "rubbing" sounds a bit, though.

I wonder if front-end geometry has a lot to do with it? I've used the Naches Passes on road customs with, possibly, steeper, more agressive geometry than those ridden by the OPs; one of the bikes was Grant designed and the other is a geometrical and dimensional near-clone of a Grant design.

Or rider weight? I'm 170-175, but then I often carry heavy-ish loads on the bike in question.

What does feel a bit squirmy, not squirrelly, is the Soma Supple Vitesse SL 48s, even at a relatively hard 25 psi; it's as if the rubber is somehow soft and needs to harden. The tire makes "eraser on plastic" sounds when turning; but far from feeling squirrelly these tires (labeled 48, measure 51 on 35 mm OW rims) have transformed the handling of the Matthews #1 into the much more Riv-Road-like handling I wanted compared to the vagueness in turns of the ultralight 60 mm Big Ones.

[Brian Turner]

I think I’ve run probably 5 sets of Rene Herse tires over the years; both with tubes and tubeless. I’ve actually found that I’ve had good luck referring to Jan’s tire pressure recommendations using his calculator, found here:

Like I said, I’ve used this and it’s worked pretty well for me, especially because I like to ride my bikes loaded down with gear. I also appreciate the meticulous, scientific approach that Jan takes to cycling. It’s not for everyone, but I kinda like it.

On Oct 7, 2023, at 10:30 AM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Ted W]

Thanks for the link, Brian. I’m adding that to the collection of bookmarks under “bicycle related calculators. It’s so funny how they’re all so different given very similar information. It just goes to show you how subjective ride feel can be and how many factors have an effect.

I’ve linked the other two calculators below for the curious:

Silca calculator: 

https://silca.cc/pages/sppc-form

SRAM calculator: 

https://axs.sram.com/guides/tire/pressure

Between all of these, Silca has always proven most reliable… but again, it’s highly subjective. I do like that there are additional parameters you can tweak on theirs, though. Jan’s seems a little too cookie cutter.

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[Brian Turner]

After plugging in my info to all three of these calculators, I get basically the same result - within 1 lb psi. SRAM’s loses points with me for only listing 650 and 700 as wheel size values (boo!).

On Oct 7, 2023, at 2:23 PM, Ted W <ted.l...@gmail.com> wrote:



Thanks for the link, Brian. I’m adding that to the collection of bookmarks under “bicycle related calculators. It’s so funny how they’re all so different given very similar information. It just goes to show you how subjective ride feel can be and how many factors have an effect.

I’ve linked the other two calculators below for the curious:

Silca calculator: 

https://silca.cc/pages/sppc-form

SRAM calculator: 

https://axs.sram.com/guides/tire/pressure

Between all of these, Silca has always proven most reliable… but again, it’s highly subjective. I do like that there are additional parameters you can tweak on theirs, though. Jan’s seems a little too cookie cutter.

On Sat, Oct 7, 2023 at 10:41 AM Brian Turner <brok...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think I’ve run probably 5 sets of Rene Herse tires over the years; both with tubes and tubeless. I’ve actually found that I’ve had good luck referring to Jan’s tire pressure recommendations using his calculator, found here:

Like I said, I’ve used this and it’s worked pretty well for me, especially because I like to ride my bikes loaded down with gear. I also appreciate the meticulous, scientific approach that Jan takes to cycling. It’s not for everyone, but I kinda like it.

On Oct 7, 2023, at 10:30 AM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:



This is very interesting. I use the extralight Naches Pass at 30-35 and 35-40 f/r depending on load, and I feel no flop or sidewall collapse; not until pressures drop below 20 psi. The NPs do feel more staid, less nimble in turn-in than the 28 mm Elk Pass, this on the same bikes, but not at all squirrelly. They do make those "rubbing" sounds a bit, though.

I wonder if front-end geometry has a lot to do with it? I've used the Naches Passes on road customs with, possibly, steeper, more agressive geometry than those ridden by the OPs; one of the bikes was Grant designed and the other is a geometrical and dimensional near-clone of a Grant design.

Or rider weight? I'm 170-175, but then I often carry heavy-ish loads on the bike in question.

What does feel a bit squirmy, not squirrelly, is the Soma Supple Vitesse SL 48s, even at a relatively hard 25 psi; it's as if the rubber is somehow soft and needs to harden. The tire makes "eraser on plastic" sounds when turning; but far from feeling squirrelly these tires (labeled 48, measure 51 on 35 mm OW rims) have transformed the handling of the Matthews #1 into the much more Riv-Road-like handling I wanted compared to the vagueness in turns of the ultralight 60 mm Big Ones.

On Sat, Oct 7, 2023 at 8:08 AM Chris L <clam...@gmail.com> wrote:

" felt like the front just flipped over on itself"

That's a good description for what mine feels like.  I also notice they get really loud on sharp turns/curves when the tire is inflated to the psi that causes the bad handling.  The front tire doesn't do that when it's aired up very hard, but that largely negates the benefit of having a fat, supple tire.  I could run Big Apples at a much lower pressure and get the cushion effect without the squirrely front end handling, but they are just so heavy and both had a wobble in them, from the day I got them.  Not the first Schwalbe tires I've owned that wobbled, so I'm wary of the entire brand, now. 

On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 10:44:23 PM UTC-5 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:

That squirrelly feeling is another thing I noticed with the Naches Pass on my Surly. It was actually the cause of a crash I had on that bike. Front end got all squirrelly on me mid corner and it felt like the front just flipped over on itself... I always attributed it to having stretched out the fit on a too-small frame (I’m 6’1” and bought a 54cm Long Haul Trucker to be able to have it in 26” wheels) and the us having shifted my center of gravity too far off the where the frame intended but having now heard a couple people here mention the feeling on the same slick tires, I’m wondering if it’s not the tires on more “touring” geometry frames, that pneumatic vs geometric trail thing that was mentioned earlier. Very interesting indeed!

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[Josh Zielinski]

Excellent take Jeremy!

Ted, I mistakenly thought the RH models mentioned in the original post were their slick equivalents.  My bad, didn't mean to push GK slicks on you!  In my experience the other GravelKing options SS and SK were pretty ok but not the same experience (even on gravelly type stuff) as the slicks with lower pressures.  Probably a coincidence but I actually got more flats with those models (I have become more diligent with sealant refreshing as well).  

I once had a set of Terravail cannonballs on a bike I sold.  I didn't get a ton of miles on them but my initial response was that they were very nice feeling.  Some texture, not too much, but pretty nice all arounder.  Looks like its available in 700c in 42 and 47.  Mine were light and supple flavor and I think they were reasonably priced mid pandemic/bike crazed times (I don't pay more than 50$ for a tire).

Josh

On Tue, Oct 3, 2023, 8:42 AM Jeremy Till <jerem...@gmail.com> wrote:

I doubt that Grant was intentionally designing his bikes specifically to handle better with knobbier tires. I think it's more a product of his own views of how a bike should handle and the tires that were available/common at the time he designed the bike. On the first point, he's written a few times defending the virtues of geometric trail, perhaps as a response to challenges from Jan-Heine-o-philes who wanted him to design a low trail bike. On the second point, most of the tires we're discussing were nothing but a twinkle in Jan Heine or Panaracer's eyes when the Rambouillet was designed, and I think it probably handles best with 28-32mm road tires because that was considered downright obese for a road bike at the time. For the Clem, certainly that was designed closer to the contemporary golden age of fat tires, but I still remember most of the prototypes wearing something like a Schwalbe Big Ben, which has more of a blockier tread that probably reduces pneumatic trail compared to something like an RH slick. 

Jeremy Till 

Sacramento, CA

On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 6:46:34 PM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:

Jeremy,

You make a good point about the geometric and pneumatic trail and the possibility that Grant designed his frames around a knobbier, more general purpose, tire thus building the frames with more geometric trail. I’d love to ask Grant that question to know if it was happy coincidence that they ended up that way or if the design choice was really that intentional.

On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 4:22 PM Jeremy Till <jerem...@gmail.com> wrote:

On my Rivendells I've noticed that, irrespective of the surface I'm riding on, I actually prefer the handling with larger knobby tires than with larger slick tires. This is true on both my Clem H (2016, first-gen) with 45-55mm tires and my Rambouillet (green, ~2006 as far as I can tell) with 36-38mm tires. My explanation for this is that Grant tends to design bikes with larger geometric trail. When you add in the pneumatic trail of larger slick tires, the whole thing can feel harder to turn. Knobby tires give you the same shock absorption while putting less rubber on the pavement, thus reducing the pneumatic trail. Jan Heine has noted this effect himself when comparing knobby and slick versions of his tires. 

My Rambouillet current wears RH (actually Compass, they're a few years old) Steilacoom 700x38 knobbies. My Clem H has 29x2.2 Specialized Fast Traks with the "Control" casing, which is an XC-oriented MTB tire with relatively minimal knobs that rolls well on pavement. In my experience there is no free lunch when it comes to supple casings and flats. Certainly the ride is better with things like the RH standard casing but my rate of flatting from glass and thorns goes up. Sealant and tubeless haven't been the solution, in my experience, and I run both of my Rivendells with tubes.  

Since Patrick was also mentioning them I will say that I've used both the 700x42 and 700x38 versions of the Soma Supple Vitesse EX on my Long Haul Trucker, which seems to handle better with large slicks than my Rivendells. Those are good tires with an acceptable flat rate for me. I also tried the 700x38 SL version on my Rambouillet and found that not only did I not like the handling, but the flat rate was excessive for me. Note that the only difference between the EX and SL Supple Vitesses is the thickness of the tread, with the EX having thicker treads. Unlike RH and other brands there is no difference in the casing between the lightweight and longer wearing versions. I believe that the Shikiro is the same tread as the Supple Vitesse EX with a heavier duty casing.  

Jeremy Till

Sacramento, CA

On Monday, October 2, 2023 at 8:26:17 AM UTC-7 ted.l...@gmail.com wrote:

I’ve had tires on the brain this last week. I was thinking I might want to try something a little narrower on my Appaloosa so I’ve been a bit absorbed with that thought.

At the moment I run the SimWorks Super Yummy tire with the black sidewall in 29x2.25”. I previously had their 26x2.25” tan wall tires on a 26” build and absolutely loved them on that bike. Unfortunately, in the larger size, with the sort of riding I do (spirited, urban, all-road) I find the tires sluggish and a bit unpredictable at times. Combined with the 25mm wide rim I use, the tires measure to close to 60mm wide.

I was thinking about trying to find a tire with a more rounded profile and something that would be a bit narrower, somewhere in the 44-48mm range to start.

I’ve been looking primarily at the Rene Herse tires. I have a friend who runs the Pumpkin Ridge (650x42) tire on his bike of a similar purpose and absolutely loves them. I’ve used the Naches Pass (26x1.8) on another build and also liked them a lot, but found that despite being the “endurance” casing, they were very prone to small punctures and didn’t handle the typical road debris around where I ride very well; this is one of the reasons I’ve typically stuck with knobbier tires.

The ones on my short list are currently the  Manatash Ridge (700x42) and Oracle Ridge (700x48) tires from RH.

I’m curious to know and see what others on the list use and have liked. If you have pictures, I’d also love to see what they look like (particularly 42mm on frames like the Appaloosa).

— Ted

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[Josh Zielinski]

Tubeless vs non tubeless is probably thread drift...  both are fine.  One gets pinch flats at low pressures (which has a lot of nice applications) and the other doesn't.  I've had good luck and slight misfortunes with both!

But yeah, all about wider tires and no/nominal knobs with fenders for anything that's mostly road-ish riding.

Josh

On Tue, Oct 3, 2023, 9:31 AM Wesley <brooks...@gmail.com> wrote:

In fact, I think it was Grant (or maybe Sheldon Brown?) who turned me onto the idea that wide tires are great, especially when they're NOT knobby. For the past 15 years, it's been Panaracer Paselas for my road bike and Schwalbe Big Apple/Fat Frank for my commute/errand bike. The idea that there are noticeable gains to be had from tubeless or RH tires seems like pure hype to me, but I may be wrong. Certainly the Schwalbe tires are crazy heavy and that must affect my acceleration. But once I'm up to speed, I doubt it matters.

-Wes

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[Josh Zielinski]

If you're slicks curious I'd recommend plain old Gravelkings.  I run all 650b sizes but I think they make 700x43.  

You can get them in pairs for really good prices (I just got 2 sets on bikesmiths.com for around $50-60 per pair with free shipping) and let's face it they are made in same place as Simworks and Renes... they are pretty nice too.  They seat easily, probably easiest tires I have ever set up.  Later, if you decide you like slicks and tricky set ups there's always upgrading to Rene.

Some will hate on them as tires go.  I ride mine all over, in gravel, down trails, poor quality country roads and some city travel and they sure feel nice to me at low-ish pressures.  Just keep the sealant fresh (add every 3ish months) and flats are pretty minimal.  I don't enjoy knobs nearly as much except in mud/slippery conditions where they actually seem necessary.

I don't have any pics on a Riv.  But I am sure Google would net some results.

One man's opinion,

Josh Z

On Mon, Oct 2, 2023, 8:26 AM Ted W <ted.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ve had tires on the brain this last week. I was thinking I might want to try something a little narrower on my Appaloosa so I’ve been a bit absorbed with that thought.

At the moment I run the SimWorks Super Yummy tire with the black sidewall in 29x2.25”. I previously had their 26x2.25” tan wall tires on a 26” build and absolutely loved them on that bike. Unfortunately, in the larger size, with the sort of riding I do (spirited, urban, all-road) I find the tires sluggish and a bit unpredictable at times. Combined with the 25mm wide rim I use, the tires measure to close to 60mm wide.

I was thinking about trying to find a tire with a more rounded profile and something that would be a bit narrower, somewhere in the 44-48mm range to start.

I’ve been looking primarily at the Rene Herse tires. I have a friend who runs the Pumpkin Ridge (650x42) tire on his bike of a similar purpose and absolutely loves them. I’ve used the Naches Pass (26x1.8) on another build and also liked them a lot, but found that despite being the “endurance” casing, they were very prone to small punctures and didn’t handle the typical road debris around where I ride very well; this is one of the reasons I’ve typically stuck with knobbier tires.

The ones on my short list are currently the  Manatash Ridge (700x42) and Oracle Ridge (700x48) tires from RH.

I’m curious to know and see what others on the list use and have liked. If you have pictures, I’d also love to see what they look like (particularly 42mm on frames like the Appaloosa).

— Ted

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[Jason Fuller]

I'm late to the party, and every angle has already been discussed at length, but I still want to shout out the RH knobbies. I'm very happy with them, but more notably for me is that I've recommended them to some riding buddies and then the good word spread like wildfire and now nearly all my riding buddies within that social circle, which ranges from longtime roadies to newbies to longtime mountain bikers, all absolutely swear by these tires.  None of us have experienced a tire that grips so well on a variety of trail surfaces, rolls fast and predictably on pavement, resists punctures, and feels great (better than other premium Panaracer brands) all at the same time. 

My only non-gushing comments would be that they do have a buzz on pavement, though the tone is more pleasant than most knobbies, and they do tend to throw pea gravel through your fender if you run metal fenders, which is slightly annoying. Definitely pair these with PDW safety tabs if running metal fenders. 

[Joe Bernard]

Jason, 

I'm digging the 650B × 42 Pumpkin Ridge for crappy road/mellow dirt riding, but they feel a smidge narrow and skittish on some of the gnarlier terrain I've discovered since moving here. I have room for 48s, should I dump cash - it's a LOT of cash - into Juniper Ridges? 

Joe Bernard 

[Mike Godwin]

Supple Vitese 700x38 on Bob Jackson

Challenge Strada Bianca 700x32 on Roadeo (measure about 33.3)

Gravel King slicks 700x38 on BMC Monstercross

All nice smooth rolling, the feel light enough. Got my first flat on Bob last week from a goathead. I've not had issues with them, mount easily and lie in the bead bed perfectly.  Same can be said about the Challenge tires.  Gravel Kings are a bit tighter (on Pacenti Forza rims), I think they are the tubeless compatible model. No flats yet. 

BMC and BJ do commute and errand duties alternating weeks. 

Mike SLO CA

[Ted W]

Well, for those curious, I discovered and impulsively bought a set of WTB Resolute tires in 700x42. A friend of mines wife runs these on her Hoefer (

http://www.hoefercycles.com) gravel bike. My friend also happens to have a couple other bikes. One runs the RH Umtanum Ridge (650x55) on one bike and the other, Juniper Ridge (650x48). So this gave me a really great opportunity to compare a lot of options side-by-side. Bringing out the calipers, I measured things as follows:

|———————————————————————————————-|

|     tire         | sidewall size  | rim inner width | measured width |

|———-————————————————————————————|

| WTB          |     650x42      |     25mm            |      44mm             |

|———————————————————————————————-|

| Umtanum |     650x55      |      19mm            |      53mm             |

|———————————————————————————————-|

| Juniper     |     650x48      |      24mm           |       50mm            |

|———————————————————————————————-|

I ended up with the WTB tires because the tread pattern is almost identical to the RH tread pattern and they’re 2/3 the price of the RH tires. The only concern I have at this point is the sidewall. My friend warned me that he has seen some other folks run these tires and shred the thin sidewalls. But he prefaced that with saying those people rode on very aggressive terrain, not what I ride (pavement and hard pack gravel).

I hope the data formatted properly (I did my best on my phone) and that the data is helpful for others. I will report back if there’s anything to note about the WTB tires as I get some miles on them.

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