The new Atlantis is goiong to be a damn hillibike monster!

[iamkeith]

I spend a lot of time looking at geometry charts.  Not because I know what I'm talking about - but because, with my odd proportions, it is extremely difficult for me to find bikes that fit well.  

I often buy bikes just because they DO fit me - even if I don't really need them.  Meanwhile, I keep looking for "the one."  (Honestly, I really just need to break down and get a custom, but I haven't trusted myself to get it right... so buying other bikes is sort of "practice" until I do.)

Owning six Rivendells of my own, I also feel like I should sort of be able to tell if a new model is going to get me closer to what I ultimately want.  (OTOH, my Susie was a perfect example of NOT understanding or guessing or extraplolating well enough.  I love it, but it is a totally different bike than I expected it would be from just looking at the charts.)

So,  with that disclaimer:  I was daydreaming and studying the new Atlantis geometry charts as I am prone to do.  The literature / web description still describes it as an All Rounder but, by my analysis, it sure seems more like a Hillibike!  Don't get me wrong - this is FANTASTIC as far as I'm concerned.

See my chart markup, below.  The most equivalent past model actually seems to be the original Clem H.  I own and love that bike too, but I've said since day-one that I wish it had:  (1) slightly shorter chainstays; (2) slightly longer top tube; (3) slightly more stand-over clearance; (4) much slacker headtube angle; and (5) fully-lugged construction.  the Atlantis achieves three of those things!   

Alsas and as usual, I fall squarely between sizes and the "suggested PBH ranges would put me on a bike that is otherwise much too small.  So I don't know if it's in my future, but I'm sure going to be considering it.   For those who regret missing out on the Clem H when it was available,  this is probably a good opportunity - so I thought I'd share this:

[iamkeith]

Actually... if you consider that the Atlantis seat tube is half a degree steeper than the Clem's - and then offset your saddle more to the rear so that they fit the same, the top tube of the Atlantis might feel longer.  So maybe it even accomplishes 4 of 5 of my wishes noted above!... unless that is canceled out by the slacker head tube causing the bars to come back more toward you?  (Apologies for subjecting you to my thinking-out-loud process...)

[iamkeith]

Chart with stand-over added

[Dan]

I’m curious to know if the 2025 Atlantis has changed much from the previous one. For some reason, I thought it always had a slack-ish head tube angle?

[iamkeith]

No -  it has definitely been trending slacker, and the top tube trending longer.  Other models, too.  I don't think that, for Rivendell, this has as much to do with following the general trend in mountain bikes though, as much as it is intended to balance things out and keep the rider centered with the ever-longer chainstays.  Mainstream mountain bikes still seem to keep the chainstays as short as possible, so the slack front for them is mostly about keeping the wheel out in front as you're bombing down steep hills. 

My All Rounder - predecessor to the Atlantis - has a 72.5 degree headtube.  The "classic" Atlantis, which was still very much just a production version of that road/touring geometry, had for many years a 72 degree headtube.  In 2016 or so, it briefly went to 71.0 (and 650b wheels).  But then in 2018 it steepened back to 71.5 (and regained 700c wheels.)  I guess I'm not exactly sure when it went to 70.  It may have been a couple of years/versions ago.  But it just got longer and gained tire clearance in this update.  

Maybe I just wasn't paying attention and my current enthusiasm is delayed.  At any rate, I'm glad it doesn't stay static.  Incremental improvements never justify upgrading for me, but cumulatively it eventually becomes a whole new bike and worth considering.  ESPECIALLY if it approximates my "ideal" bike. I do enjoy the slacker headtubes of modern mountain bikes though, too.  It just works better with the way I ride these days

[larson....@gmail.com]

I am interested as well and have had some of the same thoughts about the evolving geometry. Will the 59/62cm frames still have the rainbow 2TT? I love my 2TT Appaloosa.

Randy in WI

[Danny]

I got excited when I saw the slightly longer top tube as well.

Randy, in a recent newsletter about the Roadunos, Will said they're moving away from double top tubes going forward. I don't know for certain if that included the next Atlantis run, but I suspect they will all be 1TT.

"Do the larger sizes have a double top tube?

No, everything is single now. We're moving away from doubles."

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[larson....@gmail.com]

Thanks Danny. I thought I had remembered seeing this. I have mixed feelings about it, but excited to see the new frames.

Randy in WI

[Josh C]

Sounds like you're describing a fully lugged Clem, no? 

[iamkeith]

On Sunday, October 20, 2024 at 5:24:47 PM UTC-6 Josh C wrote:

Sounds like you're describing a fully lugged Clem, no? 

I think this question was to me?  Yes, that's what I want - but I guess what I'm arguing is that the new Atlantis basically IS a fully-lugged version of the first Clem.  Just with a couple of refinements - those being a slacker head angle and slightly-shorter-but-still-long chainstays.  

(I hope I'm not offending RBWQH asserting this.  Once again, I think it's really great.  For people with normal proportions, it's perfect.  In my case, all I'd want to do is personalize a few dimensions for fit purposes only.   It would be easier if I didn't prefer the rigidity and aesthetics of the diamond frame, I guess, and the current Clem L might even be great.)

It isn't that surprising that things evolved this way, in retrospect.  Remembering well the first discussion and germination of the Clem idea - not unlike the Bombadil and Hunquapillar before it - the goal was to create a kind of an homage or throwback to older, analog ATBs from the 1980s, before they all got twitchy race geometries and were all built around suspension forks.  The most significant differnece being some subtle changes to make them more comfortable - like lower bbs and taller headtubes.   

The Clem added a few additional criteria though:  Less expensive to build; Less likely to get targeted by thieves; Using-up some lugs from an abandoned project.  But I feel like it ALSO served as a platform for trying out a bunch of new ideas that ended up being wildly successful:  Super-long chainstays, in lenghts that were proportional to the rest of the frame; Even longer top tubes to work with the newish-at-the-time, ultra-swept-back Bosco bar.

It's wonderful but not surprising how successful and popular the Clem has gone on to be.  But as it blazed it's own path, it also sort of morphed into something a bit different.  Like the best, most-comfortable and most-useful town bike ever, for lack of another category.  To me, that left the original ATB-concept model slot - the thing I most want - kind of missing in the lineup.  Gus and Susie are (were) great but, as someone who has a Susie and an early Clem, and who came of age along with the first mountain bikes, they're almost too MUCH "mountain bike" for a daily-rider, do-everything (i.e.:  All-Rounder) bike.

Those early ATBs were so popular for a reason.  They WERE All-rounders, in the truest sense, and got the masses on bikes for the first time. At least where I live.  Elsewhere, there was the 70s 10-speed boom, I guess. Even people who didn't live in the mountains like I did bought them. You could ride them all day, ride them anywhere, take them on tours, ride fast, or ride slow.  I  moved my dad into senior living recently, and his old Stumpjumper is is still in his garage, and I can't bring myself to move it or get rid of it.  I like remembering that these bikes even got my parents out riding!  

Other funny thing is that after that, and once NORBA ruined things, ATB bikes actually became more "road" bike than "mountain" bike for a long, long while.  Plenty light, plenty "quick." They just weren't comfortable.  So why couldn't the Atlantis be more like an improvement of the original ATB idea than a strict "road touring" bike?

If/when I finally order a custom, my plan has long been to tell Grant to "start from my Clem and make these changes...."  The new Atlantis just seems so close to what I would do, it almost seems pointless or extravegent to consider now.  The Appaloosa is obviously similar and, who  knows, I may even like it better if it were possible to try both.  Or if I had to own one bike only. And there's a size that would fit better.  But, since I can't try them, I have to rely on my  preference for longer/lower bikes, developed from riding and getting accustomed to them.  To my original point though:  The longer Atlantis now just seems as close, if not closer, to the original Clem than it does the Appaloosa.

 

[Patrick Moore]

I’ve converted at 5 NORBA mtbs to drop bar or upright bar all-rounder bikes and I’ve owned at least 1 pre-NORBA mtb (CyclePro) and I much preferr the much more neutral handling of the NORBAs for a combination of pavement and dirt riding. My brother, has who converted at least 30 NORBA and pre-NORBA mtbs — that’s a  conservative guess — to all rounder use, upright and drop bars, emphatically agrees. I’ve not found it hard to get bars higher than the saddle with long-quill stems such as the Nitto Dirt Drop or (old days) Tioga T-bone and Salsa upjutter stems — I’ve never had to use the other option, quill extenders.

Some might prefer the handling of pre-NORBA bikes, but that is particular taste and not general consensus by any means.

On Mon, Oct 21, 2024 at 2:47 PM iamkeith <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

… once NORBA ruined things, ATB bikes actually became more “road" bike than "mountain" bike for a long, long while.  Plenty light, plenty "quick." They just weren't comfortable.  

[Patrick Moore]

Forgot to add that I’ve got a Raleigh Techniuim mtb frame, U-brake era, with rare tall and undersquare geometry, hanging on the wall for another such conversion, except that the friend to whom I gave my Monocog 29er is giving it back, so that I’ll probably build that NORBA-style 29er up as a single speed drop bar beater.

--

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[Brian Forsee]

Here's to hoping the 55mm tire clearance on that chart will be updated. The most recent atlantis took 2.4s, right? Seems like they wouldn't go back down from there.

I'd love to see an Atlantis w/ clearance for 29x2.6. But maybe that's just a gus/susie

[Dan]

My own thoughts about geometry changes:

When the 2024 Appaloosa came out, I was slightly anxious that it made my new, 2023 model redundant.

"But it's slacker now", I thought, "so it'll be better on trails! And I ride trails!"

But then that thought passed, and I rode the bike. And I rode it some more. And I realised it is actually great on trails, and off them.

And my model handles fantastically with a loaded-up front basket, which, who knows, might be due to the steeper head angle!

All this is to say that continual tweaks to geometry are a good thing and I love to see continual improvement. The new Atlantis will ride great, as I'm sure the old one did, as does the Appaloosa (of all forms) and the Clem H. They're great bikes! 

I'll finish with the text from the Atlantis product description, which hasn't changed from when I got my older-geo Appaloosa:

The Atlantis wheelbase is about three to four percent longer. In theory, the Atlantis will feel smoother, less reactive. In practice, any difference you might feel in a side-by-side test is far more likely to come from the bar, stem, and wheels. 

Both fit tires up to 2.3 inches fairly comfortably.

The Atlantis top tube is about a centimeter or two longer than the top tube on the closest-sized Appaloosa. That makes it marginally better for swept-back handlebars. I have both bikes, set up similarly, and I can't tell ANY difference.

[DavidP]

These geometry charts have always been conservative on tire clearances. The previous Atlantis listed the same ~55mm number. My Platypus has 50mm tires with fenders vs the ~50mm max listed. My take (and you've touched on it with your last comment) is that the listed sizes are more like a recommended max for their vision of the bike's use and helps to differentiate the models. 

-Dave

[Ray Varella]

It looks like it will take a 27.2 mm seatpost. 

That’s interesting. 

Ray

[Isaak Oliansky]

I'm not deep in the Riv universe but am curious when the Atlantis might drop in '25 so that I can pinch pennies appropriately :) 

peace,

IO in Ashland, OR 

[Tim Burke]

IO - I remember reading a few months back that the next batch of Atlantis frames were coming in January or February of 2025. 

Correct me if I’m wrong, I’m saving for one too so I’d love to be prepared. 

Tim in Philly 

[Armand Kizirian]

On one of my recent long chats with Grant on the phone (always surprises me with how generous he is with his time!), he revealed to me how they are aiming for most of their bikes to ride the same. If one were to analyze all the updates in geometry across the line-up, I would venture to say you can see a clear theme of them converging toward similar figures.

He himself said it, the Appaloosa is basically the same as the Atlantis now. I would let the better size from the offerings be the determining factor.

[Richard Rose]

Armand, that had to be a very interesting conversation. My question though would be “why”? Why should they all ride the same? Ride the same but for different application's? I guess I can see that?

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 31, 2024, at 7:46 PM, Armand Kizirian <kiziria...@gmail.com> wrote:

On one of my recent long chats with Grant on the phone (always surprises me with how generous he is with his time!), he revealed to me how they are aiming for most of their bikes to ride the same. If one were to analyze all the updates in geometry across the line-up, I would venture to say you can see a clear theme of them converging toward similar figures.

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[Ryan]

Wonder if that applies to the "road" models (Roadini, Roadeo)?

Armand, you are so right about phone conversations with Grant; he is a pleasure to talk to...it's like talking to a friend. He's a genuinely nice person. A gentleman in the best sense of the word.

[Mackenzy Albright]

Re: "Grant wants all bikes to ride the same" I think is an interesting concept. My brain goes to semantics that you want a neutral feeling bike - not too twitchy nor overly stable. You can achieve this through different approaches based on application. Getting the feel on the road may differ from a hillibike etc. I think Rivendell is known for a particular ride - they offer frames with different capacities and clearance for different applications so making them ride the same seems like a logical goal. 

Similarly I'm getting into hifi stereo equipment where the goal is creating a clean and neutral listening stage that allows clarity and depth. I try to eliminate noticable distortion through various avenues but the end result is trying to get the music to sound exactly as recorded. Different equipment has different approaches and applications but the goal is always aiming for the same result. I imagine the bike design is similar - how to create the most pleasant ride as possible within the environment they're designed for whether that is the road, trail, or single track. 

I used to be obsessed with the classic Rivendells like the hunq, Bomba, Toyo Atlantis. Etc. now I love their new approach and aesthetics and respect how we got here. But no desire to go back to ab older design - but one day i'd definitely consider a new model like a Gus or platy. 

[Josh C]

They are all morphing into one model, the Clem. Soon we will have the clem, single-speed clem, drop bar clem, the even longer chain stay clem....