The way I design a build, and the first chapter

[Bill Lindsay]

There's another thread on how I'm going to take a run at a <9kg Gallop build.  I've started this thread to lay out exactly how I plan out all the builds in my workshop.  I'll apologize in advance for the long narrative, but hopefully the few of you who poke around on Thanksgiving Day are looking for something to read...

My freshman year of high school, in the Fall of 1983 (Troy High School, Fullerton, CA) I took a typing class as an elective.  It made perfect sense to me as preparation for taking a computer elective the following semester, ha ha.  We had a project in typing class to type up a formatted outline, following all the rules of categorization with the indents and headings just so.  Each student had to come up with their own content for the project and type it up.  In the Fall of 1983 I was a habitual cover to cover reader of Bicycling and Winning! magazines.  I was obsessed with a Bruce Gordon Chinook in one of those magazines, and I used the build list for that bike as the content for my typing project.  From that moment forward, every build fits into the same framework.  Every build is comprised of five categories:

1. Frame set

2. Wheels

3. Drivetrain

4. Components

5. Accessories

I throw every build into a spreadsheet in those five groups.  It serves to organize my thoughts for every build, and as a checklist before a build begins, and sometimes helps me pull the build together mentally to anticipate the places where a nuanced build might have places where I could paint myself into a corner.  Sometimes, but not always, I'll use columns for each line to list the weight and/or the price of the stuff I'm pulling together.  By filling out that spreadsheet exhaustively with best guesses I can get into the ballpark on total price or total weight as a preview.  As guesses become certainties, the numbers come into focus.  As I've gotten older, most of my builds have targets that have nothing to do with price or with weight: they are more about how exactly I want to experience cycling on that particular machine.  The term I use to capture that relationship between the build and its target is the "build concept".  

So, let's start running through the build for my Gallop: Section 1 is the Frame Set, which has three main parts

1. Frame set

    A. Frame 

    B. Fork

    C. Headset

When I get my frame set, I'll remove the fork and weigh the fork with the fork crown.  I'll pop out the headset cups and weigh the headset minus the fork crown.  I'll remove the pre-installed bottom bracket and weigh the bare frame.  Then I will remove every bolt that is screwed into the frame and weigh that collection of bolts separately and re-weigh the completely stripped down frame.  

The Riv page for the FSA Headset claims it weighs 93.8 grams.  That's very light. 100g is the typical placeholder for a headset when I'm planning something out.  Over 100g and I could substitute something lighter.  Under 100g is pretty good.  If it's really ~94g I'm keeping it.  

The bolts gives the opportunity to do some gram-chasing.  Big picture, bolts are always steel, there are ways to make those steel bolts lighter.  They are:

1. Air is weightless.  Can you live without that bolt?  If so, consider leaving it out.  That's free and totally weightless

2. Plastic is almost as light as air, and is very cheap.  Plastic metric bolts in all sizes are made.  They weigh almost nothing and cost very little.  If you don't need to bolt anything to that threaded hole, but want to plug the hole, consider plastic and screw it in with just your fingers.  

3. Aluminum is 1/3 the weight of steel.  Virtually every high end mountain bike has aluminum water bottle bolts.  They break sometimes, but 19 out of 20 times they break, it was because the person holding the wrench over tightened them.  For low-stress bolt on applications, aluminum is great.  They are not free, but if you buy them in bulk, the per-bolt cost is not that much.  If you bought them a while ago and they are just there on the shelf, it feels like they are free.  

4. Titanium is half the weight of steel and nearly as strong.  Pretty much anything steel on a bike could be done in Titanium.  It's a bit lighter and is really expensive.  

5. Shorter steel bolts are lighter than longer steel bolts.  Sometimes water bottle bolts are 16mm long when 10mm bolts still have 100% engagement.  Swap 'em out if you have them laying about.  

A gram or two doesn't make any difference but if you look for a gram or two everywhere, they can add up.  You eat the elephant one bite at a time.  

The last consideration in this first chapter will be steer tube length.  If the final build has me slamming my stem, then that will signal that I don't need that much steer tube.  Typically Rivs come with ~30mm of headset spacers.  If I can pull the spacers and cut the steer tube down 30mm, that's more free grams.  1" steer tubes weight almost exactly 1g/mm.  If I want to keep the extra stack of the long steerer and spacers, then I'll keep it.  

That's section 1 of my upcoming build.  Section 2 is wheels, and that's the only section that is 100% complete right now.  I'll get into that later...

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[JAS]

Bill,

This series of build descriptions is of great interest to me and so timely since my Charlie Gallup has been shipped. I appreciate your strategy explanation and it's helping me think about my own new bike.  I'll have my LBS build it up; I'm consulting with them about parts on Monday. The goal is keep it light though it won't be 19kg.  I'm looking forward to your Sections on wheels and drivetrains....write soon!  

I'm struggling to decide between the new Riv Silver hubs and White Industries.  The two Silver hubs weigh 122 grams heavier than WI and they cost considerably less (though I love the highly polished look of the WI hubs which I have on my Platy). One-quarter pound seems insignificant but as you say, it adds up over the total build,  I've only seen a couple of comments about the Silver hubs; they were positive though lacking detail.  Have you used them?  Any thoughts that might help me decide?

Will you tell us what you're choosing for your Charlie's wheelset or will we need to wait for the final build reveal?

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

Joyce

[Bill Lindsay]

Hi Joyce

There's an immense backstory at every single piece on this build, and I was going to meter it out one section at a time for that reason.  One of the fun backstories is that my old college roommate has asked me to set aside 2+ weeks in the Summer of 2027 to do a Loire Valley cycle-tour.  He's not a bike person, but he does ride and enjoys riding.  I resurrected a 1990s Trek Hybrid for him and that's his bike right now.  This Gallop build will be somewhat similar to the bike he rides and likes.  I'll do the tour on my Romulus, and he'll ride the Gallop.  Between now and then, it'll be my flat bar "go fast".  

Moving to section 2: Wheel set, the whole idea hinged on Will Keating at Rivendell.  When I was there visiting and test riding the Gallop, I visited Wills work station.  He had a DT Swiss 240 hub on his desk.  I picked it up and fiddled with the free hub, and Will joked "Wouldn't it be great if somebody used that hub on a Gallop?"  That committed me to going double-barreled at my build.  Earlier this year I pulled together a no-holds-barred build on a semi-custom Roadeo.  The frame took nearly two years to come in, and that gave me a lot of time to "upgrade" my build spreadsheet.  One of the big-ticket upgrades was a HED Belgium+ wheel set with their super fancy RA Black sidewalls.  The anodized and textured pattern is purported to give ultimate braking performance and much longer rim-life due to abrasion from road grit.  They were super expensive and pretty light weight, considering widish rims that I consider "bomber".  When I tried them out on my Roadeo, though, they did NOT play well with my Rene Herse cantilever brakes.  I ended up using a different HED Ardennes wheel set with similar HED Belgium + rims, but normal sidewalls.  That wheel set came off my Legolas.  I bought some sweet racing tubulars on eBay for the Legolas, making it a true Cross Racer, but I was left with an extra set of extremely fancy wheels.  I was running them for a while on my modest road bike, a Black Mountain Road.  

In my Spreadsheet, the Wheel set category normally goes like:

2. Wheels

    A. Front hub

    B. Rear hub

    C. Skewers

    D. Front Rim

    E. Rear Rim

    F. Spokes/nipples

    G. Cassette

    H. Front Tire

    I. Rear Tire

    J. Tubes

    K. Rim strips

When you deploy a house built wheel set product, that tends to knock out A,B,D,E,and F.  Sometimes K and C.  My RA Black front wheel weighs 661g, and the rear weighs 871g.  I added a set of Control Tech 5mm Titanium skewers that I've had for ~25 years.  I installed TPU tubes and a set of used Rene Herse Barlow Pass Extralight tires.  My cassette choice is an 8 speed vintage XTR 12-32 unit which weighs a respectable 240g.  That pulls in the entire category at 2611g confirmed.  That is a wheel set that I would be perfectly comfortable using with light touring loads.  I would not have bought a $1400 wheel set for this build, but I had already spent the ~$1000 getting them on sale on a splurge.  They deserve to be used.  I have several bikes that can swap wheels, so even this is a reversible application.  

The teaser for the Section 3 Drivetrain is that the build will be a 1x8.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito

[Jay]

Thanks for taking the time to lay all this out, Bill.  I have last year's Roadini and while it feels light with 30mm tires, I know it's punching above 20 pounds.  Perhaps over time I will look to get the weight lower, as I replace parts.

[Ryan]

As always, Bill, your meticulous attention to detail is impressive

Looking forward to the next installments of your build, and accompanying pictures. Also think that dark gold is a great color

[Bill Lindsay]

I'll throw a couple more numbers around about wheels.  Back in the 1980s when roadies had clinchers for "training wheels" and tubulars for "racing wheels, we picked up the number 1500g as the number for "light" wheels, without a freewheel/cassette.  Without tires.  Without skewers.  Turns out that number is pretty applicable today as well.  Carbon disc wheels aren't much lighter, but their rims are considered a LOT stronger than featherweight aluminum rims.  My top-shelf HED all-metal wheelset weighed in at 1532g, so it's right there in the neighborhood of light wheels.  It's all-black and has low spoke count, so it will be the most eye-catching non-Rivendell look on the build.  That was the ironic vibe I was shooting for based on my DT240 conversation with Will.  The Riv employees will look at it and say "Ha! that's awesome".  

In my stable, I have another wheelset with the same HED Belgium+ rims, built on Dura Ace hubs and 32 silver spokes.  That wheel set can swap right in and will have a lot more typical Rivendell look.  

OK, moving on to Section 3, the drivetrain.  My drivetrain section is comprised of:

3. Drivetrain

    A. Crankset

        i. Crank Arms

        ii. Chainring(s)

        iii. Bolts (crank and chainring)

    B. Pedals

    C. Chain

    D. Bottom Bracket

    E. Rear Derailer

    F. Front Derailer

    G. Shifters

    H. Cables and housing

Whether to include the cassette in the drivetrain or in the wheelset is a clerical consideration.  There can also be blurring of the categories if you insist on using integrated brake levers / shifters.  I "never" do that, so it's not a problem.  

Architecturally, the first lever I pull for a light weight build was/is the first trick I listed up in the frame set section: "Air is weightless".  So I decided to do a 1x 8 drivetrain featuring a crankset that can be set up as a multi-chainring build later.  The lightest front detailer is no front detailer.  The lightest left shifter is no left shifter.  The lightest small chainring is no small chainring.  Cassettes with fewer cogs tend to be lighter, etc.  

I had planned on running what is, in my opinion, the nicest crankset out there: Rene Herse.  It's great, it is reliable, simple, minimalist.  It can be set up as a single/double/triple and it is gorgeous and very light.  It is also $450.  I had it in there as a place holder, but later decided to do some swapping in the stable.  My RoadUno build is not light with front and rear racks, a basket and three bags always attached.  Who cares about another 150g?  I swapped IN a Silver1 Crankset to my RoadUno and freed up a Silver3.  The bare Rene Herse arms have a claimed weight of 418g.  My Silver3 bare arms came in at 460g.  The universe paid me $450 to accept 42g of extra weight, and it will be cool to have a <9kg Rivendell CHG featuring Silver3 cranks.  The single ring will be a 38T Wolf Tooth 110mm BCD ring that I used my REI discount and rewards to pay for.  My kids like getting me bike bling for Christmas so I gave my son the URL for some nice Wolf Tooth aluminum chainring bolts and RAZR grips.  

For the Bottom Bracket, I picked up a titanium White Industries unit, used, on the list for a good price, from a local, bundled with a Choco handlebar, which is a great bar to have on-hand.  We'll see if the Choco bar gets used when we get to section 4 of the build.  The Ti BB (140g) uses the same bearings and cups as the Steel unit that Riv sells.  For Pedals I just grabbed the lightest pedals I already have in my stable: Ultegra-level Road SPDs (290g)

The rear derailleur is a short cage (GS) Rapid-Rise XTR M950 (210g) that I removed from my Black Mountain Monster Cross, downgrading that bike to a mere Deore XT which is 30g heavier.  The single shifter will be an IRD thumbie, built around a Silver that has been shortened and rubber tipped (70g).  That  pair of shifters came out of my shifter box.  Cables/housing and chain will weigh what they weigh.  I'll probably employ the contemporary iBob trick to run one narrower generation chain (9sp) on my 8sp cassette.  The 8 gears will run between 33 and 87 gear inches.  

This minimalist drive train is extremely low-cost because of my repurposing of parts I already have, and has built-in flexibility and expandability.  It is incidentally light because of its minimalist approach.  There are still a few "tuning" opportunities to shave a couple grams here and there.  Because of the tiny outlay of money thus far, I feel like I can afford to do a few things when it comes to actually executing the build.  Furthermore, there is another easy 42 gram reduction available if and when I decide to grab another Rene Herse crankset.  

That's section 3.  All we have left is Components and Accessories.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Patrick Moore]

Bill: pedals: if you wan them,  I’ll send you (no cost except patience) my hitherto hoarded Xpedia ti-spindle 2-sided SPD-type pedals at IIRC 260 grams, 180 lb weight limit. I’m well under but still have qualms about torquing a 76” gear uphill with them. (My lovely DA SPDs weigh 100 grams more.) Note: I got these second hand, used them briefly, they worked fine and I had no problems, but no guarantees.

1500 grams wheelsets: my 559 bsd Sun M14A + 8-speed Ultegra wheelset with 15/17 and alloy nipples back when I had it built for the then-new 2003 Curt Riv Road custom weighed IIRC 1565 grams with Velox on both rims. The Curt came in at 19 lb even with 1X10 (TA Pro 5 Vis 48 pulling 12-19 Am Classic 10 speed with retrofriction dt shifter and with removable leftside shifter boss removed) exactly 1 lb heavier than its parent and model the 1999 Joe Starck fixed gear.

I enjoy your meticulous descriptions of meticulous builds, the diametrical opposite of my own careless “bright idea, let’s see if this works, no it doesn’t, find a way to make it work” method, eventually paying a lot of money to get someone else to get things to work.

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[Patrick Moore]

Forgot to add that the Curt frameset, 58 c-c with fork with long steerer and 2003 Ultegra headset weighed a surprisingly heavy 7 lb.

On Fri, Nov 29, 2024 at 4:23 PM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

… the Curt came in at 19 lb even with 1X10 (TA Pro 5 Vis 48 pulling 12-19 Am Classic 10 speed with retrofriction dt shifter and with removable leftside shifter boss removed) exactly 1 lb heavier than its parent and model the 1999 Joe Starck fixed gear.

[Patrick Moore]

Xpedo.

On Fri, Nov 29, 2024 at 4:23 PM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

… Xpedia ti-spindle 2-sided SPD-type pedals 

[Patrick Moore]

Sheesh: 12-21. I sometimes swapped in a 13-23.

On Fri, Nov 29, 2024 at 4:23 PM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

… 12-19 Am Classic 10 spee

[brendonoid]

I look forward to the next part Bill, Thanks.

My usual method is throw my parts bin at a frame and see what sticks then open 50+tabs in my browser and see what arrives in the mail a month later.

This method seems more organised.

[Ted Durant]

Fun thread. Reminds me of "It's All About The Bike" by Robert Penn.

I'm also a spreadsheet jockey (I recently said to a retired-actuary-biking friend, "If it can't be done in a spreadsheet, it's not worth doing."), and I have a column for component weights, but I haven't used that column in a long time. My process these days starts with the question, "What does this bike want to be?" From there it's a process of refining form, function, and parts availability, either from my inventory, new, or sourcing used stuff. A few of my spreadsheet columns are dedicated to identifying where the part will come from and how much it will cost. 

Almost all of my thinking begins with tire size. I'm surprised, Bill, that hasn't shown up in your chapters so far, other than a mention of RH Barlow Pass (622-38) , which appears to be what you've chosen for the build. I think 38 is an excellent choice for this sort of bike, a great balance of weight/comfort/speed. It happens to be the root of my next bike, though it will be 584-38. 

It's fun to pursue lightness, and I'll be doing that on my next bike. However, I went with higher-zoot-lower-weight on West Coast Sam, and lower-zoot-less-money-higher-weight on East Coast Sam, and I'm certain that if I put the same tires on each bike I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them.

If you want light pedals, RBW Clem Smith / VP 538 pedals are 272g a pair, and the Lems sneakers I wear are around 500g for the pair. It's tough to beat that with any SPD system. 

Ted Durant

Milwaukee WI USA

[John Dewey]

Gram counting is primarily an intellectual exercise is it not? For sure, light wheels are sublime if you can get away with it. I gave up on sew-ups long ago but I’ll never forget my first ride on those I built for a Torpado race bike I owned while living on Nantucket. Transformative, oh my! I’m not so good with thread & needles, however, and not so patient either. 

So…who among us still rides sew-ups, and who among us in that subset patches tubes and stitches ‘em back up? Got to be at least one BOB out there with patience of a saint and lots of free time. 

Jock

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[Ted Durant]

On Saturday, November 30, 2024 at 10:34:03 AM UTC-6 John Dewey wrote:

Gram counting is primarily an intellectual exercise is it not?

I don't think so. In some sense it's purely a physical exercise, removing mass from the bike. Or, as Bill has noted, it can be a financial exercise, calculating the cost:benefit ratio.

From a practical perspective, however, an argument can (and has been) made that marginal grams in the relevant range do not impact performance. I enjoyed this paper a great deal. As a data scientist, however, I would note that removal of an outlier event would alter his results.

https://www.bmj.com/content/341/bmj.c6801

[Bill Lindsay]

Rounding out the build plans there are sections 4 and 5.  Components and Accessories.  Components in a way should come first on a Rivendell build because the first thing we normally think about when defining the broad strokes of a Riv build is the handlebar.  In no particular order, Components looks like:

4. Components

    A. Handlebar

    B. Stem

    C. Brake Levers

    D. Brake Calipers

    E. Seatpost

    F. Saddle

    G. Grips/Tape

    H. Cables/Housing

My handlebar of choice is the Nitto Jitensha bar. These are kind of classic, particularly in the Bay Area, because of Jitensha Studio.  They are basically a narrow Wavie, or more accurately the Wavie is a wider Jitensha.  The Jitensha bar is an amusing bar to buy on the second hand market.  As a road bar, Nitto always offered it in 26.0mm.  Everybody knows they are 26.0mm, but in my experience, every copy of the Jitensha bar I've seen has passed through the hands of at least one person who either forgot, or doesn't know how to measure their stem, or thinks that 25.4 is close enough to 26.0.  Because of that a used Jitensha bar is usually scratched to hell on the sleeve.  My copy is no different. Still, it's a great handlebar (for me).  The Holy Grail for a light weight build would be the limited release ultralight Jitensha, which is the bulged Nitto treatment rather than sleeved.  My normal weight Jitensha weighs 243g.  The 26.0 quill stem is a 1990s Salsa.  It has a normal steel bolt and an aluminum wedge, but I had a little fun with my treasure box.  I have a titanium quill bolt that I bought in 1992, along with a hollowed out wedge.  The reason I had sat on the titanium bolt is that the head is a tiny bit oversized and doesn't quite fit into the recess in the top of normal stems.  This time I was determined so I installed the removable trademark gold aluminum top cap of the Salsa stem, chucked it up in my late-father's lathe and bored it out the ~10-thousandths necessary to allow the bolt head to fit properly.  Swapping out the bolt and wedge dropped 22g and brings the stem in at 252g.  That tuning operation was free.  

There are essentially no choices for brake calipers.  It's long reach Tektros.  They weigh 353g, but I've got a couple tuning moves to try.  One attempt failed.  I guessed that the backbone style Koolstop pads might be lighter than the holder-insert style.  I bought some at Blue Heron and took them home to weigh them and they turned out heavier than the stock holders.  I will probably upgrade the look to the Koolstop holders, because they have a drillium look to them and I'm going to be using E-bike inserts from Riv.  

For brake levers, big-spenders like Paul, and I have long been a fan of the IRD that Riv featured on my RoadUno complete.  I had the IRD levers in the spreadsheet for a while, but I still have an Instead I decided to go WAY cheaper and minimalist, and a good step lighter with Tektro FL-750.  These are the perfect flat bar road levers for builds with caliper brakes.  They are stripped down to the absolute essentials and they work great.  I found them on eBay from a seller who offered cheaper prices the more you buy.  I got four pairs for less than the price of one set of IRD, and they weigh 117g for the pair, and I've got another 10g or so of tuning targeted.  

Seatposts leave most people stuck on 2024 Rivs.  All the nice boutique posts come in 27.2.  All the fancy vintage posts you have laying around are 27.2, but Rivs take 26.8.  Some upgrade from Kalloy to a Crystal Fellow or other Nitto Post from Riv.  The nicest metal seat posts ever made, in my view of the world, were Shimano.  In the early 90s, Dura Ace, XTR and Ultegra models all has the same timeless minimalist silhouette, tremendous strength and adjustability, and they were/are impressively light weight and have the normal amount of setback so there are no fit hassles.  There was a time in the early 2000s where you could get NOS Shimano seat posts for $50, but nowadays used ones are a lot more expensive.  They were made in "all" the sizes, but 27.2 definitely dominates the second hand market.  I had a Nitto S65 Crystal Fellow slotted in, but I kept my eyes peeled at located a Dura Ace 7410 unit in 26.8.  In my builds, the cut off for a "light" seatpost is 200g.  I expect this Dura Ace unit may come in at about 180.  The Nitto would have been about 220g, and about $20 more expensive.  200g is also a good number for "light" saddles.  The light road saddle I've standardized on in my stable is the Fizik Arione.  Steel rail basic models are ~240g, and carbon railed minimalist models are ~150g.  I'll put a 150g unit on to start with the expectation that for longer rides I may defer back to the heavier version.  

I have a bunch of extra Jagwire Elite links from my Roadeo build, and I may try to pull that together with the right end bits and liner.  Brake housing is light, under 2g per inch, but it adds up, and Jagwire Elite is approximately half the weight.  The links I have are black, and I have my eye on a new gold kit,  I might try to do a fun combo of black and gold.  Cables are cables, but that may be the place I sneak in some Campagnolo brake cables.  Every bike should have one Campagnolo part.  

I plan electric blue thin foam grips, complemented by electric blue Newbaums down the center.  

The Accessories section contains all the extras.  There's judgement when doing a weigh-in on a light build what things are OK to leave off.  Here I will only be using one Titanium King Cage, and a minimalist mini-pump.  When I weigh in, it will be a complete bicycle, but won't have any racks or bags.  

The sum total of all of the above is sitting at 9025g.  The numbers will change a little when I get the actual frame set in my hands, and figure out places for lighter fasteners.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Ted Durant]

On Friday, November 29, 2024 at 12:28:42 PM UTC-6 Bill Lindsay wrote:

 I'll probably employ the contemporary iBob trick to run one narrower generation chain (9sp) on my 8sp cassette.  The 8 gears will run between 33 and 87 gear inches.  

Hey Bill - I'm surprised you glossed over the choice of cassette. That's a lot of weight, but of course the pickings are slim when you go with 8sp. The implication from your gear inch range and tire size is that you're using a 12-32. What cassette, how much does it weigh, and did you consider other options?  You could run a 34t chainring with a SRAM XG1090 10sp 11-28, save a lot of weight, and get the same range.

[Bill Lindsay]

Ted - I'm surprised you think I glossed over my cassette.  Maybe you are one of the members who views the group on your email client, making it almost impossible to follow a multipost thread?  Anyway, the cassette is attached to the rear wheel, so I count it as part of section 2: Wheel set.  There, in the post about the wheels, I explained exactly the cassette I'm using for the initial build: A vintage XTR 12-32 which weighs 240g.  If I end up with $350 of Christmas money and find that a 38x32 is too high a low gear, perhaps I'll spring for a 1090 cassette.  "Light and free" beats "ultralight and ultra-expensive" in my garage.

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Ted Durant]

On Dec 1, 2024, at 4:17 PM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ted - I'm surprised you think I glossed over my cassette.  Maybe you are one of the members who views the group on your email client, making it almost impossible to follow a multipost thread?  

Nah, I just forgot you’d done that in the wheel section.

Anyway, the cassette is attached to the rear wheel, so I count it as part of section 2: Wheel set.  There, in the post about the wheels, I explained exactly the cassette I'm using for the initial build: A vintage XTR 12-32 which weighs 240g.

Yeah, that’s pretty light. You might save something like 60g from that.

 If I end up with $350 of Christmas money and find that a 38x32 is too high a low gear, perhaps I'll spring for a 1090 cassette.  "Light and free" beats "ultralight and ultra-expensive" in my garage.

Or shop used or leftovers, which you pretty much have to do, now, since SRAM isn’t making much of the 10-11sp OG/XG anymore. I saw some NOS for 200-250. But, $4/gram is still a bit steep. 

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI USA

[Bill Lindsay]

"The sum total of all of the above is sitting at 9025g.  The numbers will change a little when I get the actual frame set in my hands, and figure out places for lighter fasteners."

And indeed a few grams have dropped:  My seatpost and chainring were on my porch when I got home from visiting my mom and in-laws for Thanksgiving.  My placeholder 195g weight entry for my Dura Ace seatpost became 190g confirmed.  That'll drop maybe 15g when I cut it down for the build.  My placeholder 70g for a 38T narrow-wide chainring became a confirmed 60g.  Finally, my estimated 70g for my single friction thumb shifter became 60g confirmed, and includes 13g of steel hardware that I can swap in aluminum at about 4g.  The entry in the spreadsheet is still at 60g, though until I pull the trigger on a McMaster-Carr bolts order.  The spreadsheet is now at a very svelte 8999.2 grams.  

Somebody off-list told me that plastic sealed bearing Clem pedals are impressively light.  I think I have a pair on a hard-to-reach bike in the garage.  If they are in fact lighter than my road SPDs then I'll definitely use them for at least the weigh-in.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

P.S. I will not be requesting Patrick Moore's hand-me-down pedals, so if one of you all want his free light clipless pedals, hit him up.

[Ted Durant]

On Monday, December 2, 2024 at 9:33:16 AM UTC-6 Bill Lindsay wrote:

Somebody off-list told me that plastic sealed bearing Clem pedals are impressively light.  

As I posted earlier in this thread, I weighed a pair of them at 272g, including the plastic shrink-wrap holding them together :-)  The only pedals I have that are lighter are Eggbeater 11 (titanium axles).

[Ted Durant]

On Dec 2, 2024, at 9:33 AM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

The spreadsheet is now at a very svelte 8999.2 grams.  

That is impressive - well done, Bill!

[Bill Lindsay]

CONFIRMED!  All of you who bought a CLEM complete from Rivendell are now confirmed as Weight Weenies!!  Pop those reflectors off to save a gram or two!

BL in EC

[Armand Kizirian]

For reference, I reduced the weight of my Platypus Complete by 5.75lbs. I stripped the parts entirely for another frame, which was the plan from the get go. The list below shows the weight difference of parts. It is mostly complete, but missing brakes and some other accessories, because I ultimately lost interest and just wanted to finish the bike and ride it. :)

[Ted Durant]

On Dec 2, 2024, at 2:10 PM, Armand Kizirian <kiziria...@gmail.com> wrote:

For reference, I reduced the weight of my Platypus Complete by 5.75lbs.

That’s amazing. Particularly interesting how much weight was saved in the wheels. Swap those pedals for Clems!  Is the replacement seatpost also 300mm? I’m wondering if you could have saved weight just by trimming excess from the Nitto 83?

[Bill Lindsay]

I don't follow the math.  The rear wheel math makes sense to me:

Heavy old rear wheel weight - Lighter new rear wheel weight = rear wheel weight savings
2252g - 1582g =670g = 23.634 oz (checks out)

Heavy old front wheel weight - Lighter new front wheel weight = front wheel weight savings

1942g - 1424g = 518g =18.272 oz (Impressive, but you claim 1188g of savings on the front wheel)

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Bill Lindsay]

Looks like 1188g of savings is the SUM of both wheels reduction.  670g + 518g = 1,188g Now it makes sense.  Did you double-count the front wheel savings in your total though?  Maybe it doesn't matter anymore.  :)

BL in EC

[Armand Kizirian]

Whoops! Good catch. From what's identified on that list, the correct total is 1938g / 4.27lbs. I feel silly after all that weighing and I didn't weigh the complete bike stock. Oh well!

The 2.5lb+ drop in wheel weight also includes the exceptionally light, extralight rene herse casing, and lightweight Schwalbe butyl tubes. Though I have foregone both to run the endurance casing tubeless.

[Richard Rose]

Very fascinating stuff. Two questions; how much did the 4+ pound weight loss cost & how does it feel? 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 2, 2024, at 7:06 PM, Armand Kizirian <kiziria...@gmail.com> wrote:

Whoops! Good catch. From what's identified on that list, the correct total is 1938g / 4.27lbs. I feel silly after all that weighing and I didn't weigh the complete bike stock. Oh well!

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[Armand Kizirian]

Sure, feels a bit snappier off the line and surprisingly fast for an upright bike (nice tires with light wheels mostly help here). If you get really active with the bike, go for a spirited sprint, or chuck it in some turns at an aggressive speed, the weight shift does feel more noticeable. It's more for the feel, not concerned with actual speed. All-in-all not a big deal though for a bike that is meant for pleasure and commuting. The weight is easily replaced by what I usually carry for a strict pleasure ride, which really is the main intention, to offset that weight. 70% of the time I have 20-30lb's of cargo for my commutes, as I pack a mobile office, food for the day, and usually a change of clothes as well.

The main motivation for me to do this work is that I was building from the frame up, which is the time to do it. Doing this work down the line requires changing nearly everything, which is not time or cost-effective, like Bill pointed out. If I had kept the stock complete built, the only thing I would bother with is the wheelset, which really is the only thing you'll actually feel a difference on.

[Richard Rose]

Thanks for that. I love every single thing about my Gus & it’s build - except its weight. It’s a heavy beast & it only bothers me going uphill on singletrack. When I built it up from bare frame I paid no attention to weight. I even (foolishly?) sold a Cane Creek ee wings Ti crankset to fund the frame purchase. I’d kinda like to do it over & take this shaving every gram approach. But, it would have to start with wheels. I just do not know of a better/lighter rim to use than the Cliffhanger? Is there another MTB worthy rim that will support a 2.6” tire? 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 2, 2024, at 10:43 PM, Armand Kizirian <kiziria...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sure, feels a bit snappier off the line and surprisingly fast for an upright bike (nice tires with light wheels mostly help here). If you get really active with the bike, go for a spirited sprint, or chuck it in some turns at an aggressive speed, the weight shift does feel more noticeable. It's more for the feel, not concerned with actual speed. All-in-all not a big deal though for a bike that is meant for pleasure and commuting. The weight is easily replaced by what I usually carry for a strict pleasure ride, which really is the main intention, to offset that weight. 70% of the time I have 20-30lb's of cargo for my commutes, as I pack a mobile office, food for the day, and usually a change of clothes as well.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/f470ffbd-ba53-4798-a71c-3bcb12630c29n%40googlegroups.com.

[Bill Lindsay]

A gram-shaving Gus build sounds to me like a Susie build ;-). 

Rim-brake rim options for wide tires are indeed slim.  I've heard of an Alex DX-32 which may be ~75g lighter than a Cliffhanger.  In my stable, when the tires get that wide, that's where we switch over to disc brakes, which opens up a lot more light options, like the excellent Velocity Blunt SS.  

If I had a Gus and wanted to make it easier to pedal up steep single track, I'd do it mostly with cargo reduction, lower gearing, and try to manage my own bodyweight.  Gram shaving a Gus is going to get lost in the noise, in my humble opinion.  Unless you can do something like Armand above and move your entire build over to another bike and earn yourself a do-over on your Gus build....

BL in EC

[Richard Rose]

Fair points. FYI, the Susie is (I think?) 8 ounces lighter. If I was truly concerned I could shed the B17 & steel Albacore handlebar for instant weight loss, but I love both.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 3, 2024, at 12:29 PM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

A gram-shaving Gus build sounds to me like a Susie build ;-). 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/9e37b71f-a98f-4517-80e1-d8051081e9dfn%40googlegroups.com.

[Bill Lindsay]

It sounds to me like you have a good handle on the trade-offs.  Good luck if you decide to do something

BL in EC

[Richard Rose]

I almost forgot. The wheelset I kind of fell into (Cliffhanger’s) came with a Son dynamo hub. I still do not own a dynamo powered light two years on. I think it’s a relative boat anchor? So yeah, an alternate wheelset might make a difference I would notice. Lastly there is the Silver double crank vs. a lightweight single not to mention the rather lovely Nexave rapid rise.., the list goes on.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 3, 2024, at 2:15 PM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

It sounds to me like you have a good handle on the trade-offs.  Good luck if you decide to do something

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/de441501-86e4-49ec-a213-375462cb5a54n%40googlegroups.com.

[Bill Lindsay]

In my original post I said: "The bolts gives (sic) the opportunity to do some gram-chasing."  

I got a $90 McMaster-Carr order in today, featuring 20 aluminum bolts and 8 Titanium bolts.  By my count, I think 10 of those 28 bolts are going to end up on my CHG build.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Collin A]

To pile onto the bolt-gram-counting-train, Paragon Machine Works is having a holiday sale and you can get some nice M5 and M6 Ti bolts for about $1-2 each. That falls under Bill's $1/g (approximate) limit. Bonus for being local!

I picked up a few for fender mounting and to save some weight on the seatpost binder bolt.

Collin in Bolt-town

[Jason Fuller]

Richard - regarding the weight of dynamo, a friend did a pretty comprehensive gram-counting exercise on dynamo vs. battery lights and found that dynamo is about 170g heavier on average, if I'm remembering correctly.  It assumes though that you're carrying battery lights if you don't have dynamo, which is obviously not always the case unless you're a pack-rat like I am.  Battery lights themselves are heavier than dynamo lights, so that partially offsets the mass of the hub.  I love the Blue Lug Koma lights; minimal and not bright enough to light the way at night but super light (and can be unscrewed leaving only the ~2g base in place). This is what I'd do on a gram-counting build to maintain practicality. 

Cliffhangers are beautiful rims that build up so wonderfully but good gosh, they are heavy. Quill are significantly lighter while maintaining some extra width (not as much).  Crust makes some really light-for-their-width options but I've seen too many crack at the eyelets for me to buy them, honestly. A weight-sensitive fatter tire build for me would be Quill rims and RH 55mm knobby tires in Extralight casing, both 650B and 700c options available. 

[Richard Rose]

Interesting. I did not think the quill could take a 55. But even that is a far cry from my 2.6” tires.

Regarding the dynamo - I got a nice deal on the wheels & envisioned some possible nighttime adventures in addition to standard MTB duties. So far it’s been exclusively MTB - nothing at night.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 3, 2024, at 9:40 PM, Jason Fuller <jtf.f...@gmail.com> wrote:

Richard - regarding the weight of dynamo, a friend did a pretty comprehensive gram-counting exercise on dynamo vs. battery lights and found that dynamo is about 170g heavier on average, if I'm remembering correctly.  It assumes though that you're carrying battery lights if you don't have dynamo, which is obviously not always the case unless you're a pack-rat like I am.  Battery lights themselves are heavier than dynamo lights, so that partially offsets the mass of the hub.  I love the Blue Lug Koma lights; minimal and not bright enough to light the way at night but super light (and can be unscrewed leaving only the ~2g base in place). This is what I'd do on a gram-counting build to maintain practicality. 

Cliffhangers are beautiful rims that build up so wonderfully but good gosh, they are heavy. Quill are significantly lighter while maintaining some extra width (not as much).  Crust makes some really light-for-their-width options but I've seen too many crack at the eyelets for me to buy them, honestly. A weight-sensitive fatter tire build for me would be Quill rims and RH 55mm knobby tires in Extralight casing, both 650B and 700c options available. 

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[brendonoid]

Jason Fuller:

Crust makes some really light-for-their-width options but I've seen too many crack at the eyelets for me to buy them.

Ah, you just saved me a lot of money. Thanks.

Well not really because Quills cost a lot more but you know what I mean...

[Bill Lindsay]

Collin gave the heads up that Paragon Machine works, just down the hill in Richmond, is (practically) giving away house made titanium bolts.  I visited them and bought 20 M5x0.8x10mm (aka water bottle bolts), 10 M5x0.8x16mm (aka front derailleur clamp bolts), and 5 M6x1.0x30mm (aka threadless top cap preload bolts.  They threw in a few stickers.  $35 for a bunch of cool Made in Richmond Titanium bits.  

Bill Lindsay

near Richmond CA

[Armand Kizirian]

Thanks Ted, I realized my flat pedals for my mtb that I never use could easily be used on my Riv. Saved 166g / 0.36lbs. Never was quite thrilled with the MKS Pretzel platform, the Stamp 7 replacement is welcomed, after swapping the screws/pins for a much less aggressive height to not destroy the soles of any shoes I ride my bike with.

For those that don't know, this website is actually not a spam website but a real business. Their deals and customer service are great. Where I got the pedals from: https://bikecloset.com/product/crank-brothers-stamp-7-small-high-polish-silver/