Question about rear brake cable housing routing with low friction on a Clem

[Kim H.]

I currently have the standard cable routing for my rear cantilever brakes. The cable and housing runs up the top low bar onto the seat tube and up and over the seat stay into a cable housing guide off of the seat post binder bolt. See first attached picture.

My question is would there be less friction of having the cable and housing run in the same route as above, except for having it run through a DIA-COMPE center pull cable pulley roller mounted off the the seat binder bolt with a longer seat binder bolt ?  See second attached picture.

What are your thoughts and feedback ?

Would there be any differences ?

Thank-you,

Kim Hetzel.

[Allan McLane]

My solution…

[Garth]

It may be less but would it really matter enough to notice it in brake funtion.... I can't say as every setup is unique. 
The main thing with the roller to me it so there isn't a cable sticking out the side of the seat tube. 

Using the noodle like Allan did looks good too.

[Steve]

I'm following with interest - and though my mixte (Platypus) sports V-brakes I've had similar questions in my effort to smooth out the pull of the rear brake. I've tried routing the cable through the short guide brazed on the seat tube as well as bypassing it. Didn't seem to make much difference.  

I can suggest that a good quality but flexible cable housing makes a difference, with the spiral coiled metal jacket preferable to the pricier compressionless linear strand variety. I'm currently using Jagwire Sport housings, but Shimano is also very good.  Slicking the length of the cable with silicone O-ring lubricant also improves the feel at the levers (despite assurances that there is no need  do so).  Finally - start with smooth pulling levers and brake arms. 

As for the Dia-compe roller guide ;  I say give it a try, though I'm a bit skeptical. On a bike without fenders that pulley is going to get dirty.

Steve

[Joe Bernard]

You may get a little smoother (less gritty-feeling) action at the brake lever because the cable is making one less turn at the seat lug, but I'm not sure it's worth the bother. On my mixte and step-thru I adjust the spring tension at the rear brake to get a strong snap-back at the lever and it seems to overcome any stiction in the housing well enough* 

*YRMV, it bothers some folks more than others. I tend to use the rear as a "well it's there, I guess I'll pull that lever, too" option and think about the front brake as the one actually stopping the bike. The rear feeling a little different is something I mostly ignore. 

Joe Bernard 

[Steve]

Joe, at the risk of veering off into a discussion or braking technique, I am curious how you control your speed when descending or cornering on rough or loose surfaces. While I recognize that the majority of stopping power resides in the front of the bike,  I find the ability to modulate the rear brake critical in those situations, and tend to wear out my rear pads long before the front ones. Even in a straight line stop on level terrain  I find using the rear brake along with the front helps to keep the bike settled by avoiding sudden loading of the front end. 

Admittedly, some of my approach may be a carry over from motorcycling, but it works for me.  

Steve  

[Joe Bernard]

Steve, 

I learned it from motorcycles, too. I run my rear brake with more travel than the front so it's hard to lock up, and use it as a drag brake on loose surfaces.* Which contributes to my attitude that I don't care much if it feels grittier than the front. 

*This pops up a lot when I sell my bikes. I forget to readjust the rear brake and buyers tell me there's something wrong cuz the front and rear feel very different! 

[Mathias Steiner]

The conventional wisdom from decades ago -- so long that i forget the source -- is that the friction in a brake cable is a function of the bend angle of the wire and not the tightness of the bend or the length of the cable. This made intuitive sense to me and seems to be borne out by the 'feel' of my brakes. The bend can be pretty tight when coming from under the bar tape and going to the front cantilever brake cable stop.

Regarding the pulley mentioned in the original post; there is bound to be a 'friction-like' penalty from having to bend a brake cable around the diameter of the pulley. It's not friction per se but it takes force to deform the cable like that. Try it with your fingers.

All this to say I wouldn't worry about it and keep running it like it sits.

It's just the rear brake anyway, the front does most of the work.

cheers -m

[Steve]

Joe - two different approaches to achieve the same goal!  I'm borderline obsessive in setting my front and rear up with nearly equal pull. I bet there are a few other variations out there. 

Apologies Tim - back on topic -- are you going to give the roller a try?  I'm curious to hear your impression of how it performs.

On Sunday, March 31, 2024 at 3:33:49 PM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:

[Kim H.]

@Alan - I do remember from last year ? seeing a green bike with a noodle for routing the rear brake cable. I thank-you for posting your picture of it again here. Your solution has come great possibilities with simplicity. I do have a noodle out in my bike tool box.

@Garth - I thank-you for your perspective and seeing that with Alan's cable routing just might be the solution over the brake pulley wheel. It is most definitely a lot cleaner in a appearance for a Rivendell bicycle.

@Steve - I thank-you for your suggestion of using the flexible metal spiral coil cable housing or the Jagwire Sport housing. Additionally, slicking the length of the cable with silicone O-ring lubricant sounds like a great idea. I appreciate it. I will look into those.

I do have f/r Honjo 65 Flat fenders, so worries about getting the brake pulley wheel getting dirty, if I go that route.

@Joe - I have my braking clearance between both front and rear brake pads to the rims very minimal for the need for quick stopping power. I do apply both front and rear brakes at the same time to stop or slow down.

@Mathias - Your words are of true bicycle wisdom, that truly hits home with me. I really appreciate you sharing them with me. Thank-you.

I thank-you all of you for your input and suggestions. 

Today, I went on a very pleasant bicycle ride in the bright warm sunshine. I took a break to sit a bench along a bike/pedestrian trail near where I live. After reading this morning, some of the posts about routing the cable and housing in between the seat stays. I decided to do that. I found out that there was a difference in the way the cable felt upon braking. With that being said, I am going to find that noodle in my toolbox and do some head scratching with the possibly buying new Jagwire cage housing from Alan's solution and Steve's advice. 

Here is a picture of how I reset the cable and housing through the seat stays below.

Kim Hetzel

[Allan McLane]

Note, that’s a 135 degree noodle in the picture. I had first used a 90 degree noodle but felt that the radius was too short and tight.

[Brian Turner]

Personally, I’d leave as-is. Aesthetically, I wouldn’t want another unsightly, unnecessary piece of hardware detracting from that beautiful seat lug and already perfectly functional binder bolt. But then again, some people enjoy adding extraneous gizmos to their bikes.

Brian
Lexington KY

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

Speaking of extraneous gizmos, how about losing the cantilever brakes and going with a V-brake? Cantilevers are cool, and they clear fenders better, and they’re fun to problem solve, but linear pull brakes are so very much great and easy.

-Kai

[Kim H.]

Hi Allen, 

I thank you for letting me know specifically the degree angle of your cable noodle. I can clearly understand that it would make a big difference over the 90 degree noodle for my needs.

Where did you buy your 135 degree noodle from ?

On the low bar of my Clem,  there is a rear brake cable guide.

How does your noodle attaches to the cable?

Did you place a cable ferrel stop inside the cable stop and place a separate piece of cable housing to connect the noodle ?

BTW, What model of Rivendell bike do you have?

Thank you,

Kim Hetzel 

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[Kim H.]

@Brian- 

I have decided to move away from the idea of placing a rear brake cable roller guide gizmo on my Clem. Allan's idea of using a 135 degree noodle is most appealing and aesthetically very pleasing to me.

Kim Hetzel. 

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[Kim H.]

@Kai -

I thank-you for the suggestion of using V-brakes. I am staying with my Dia Compe 980 cantilever brakes that clear without question my Honjo 65 Flat fenders. I have no problems with adjusting them.

Kim Hetzel. 

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[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

..and sweet fenders they are, can’t blame you for sticking with what works. 

What’s the science behind brake noodles anyways? 

I know I need them to route to my V-brakes, otherwise I’d have a mess of housing sticking out the side of my bike, and I’ve used them to route friction shifters out of the way of front bags with much success, but I always thought there was a price to pay with slightly more friction in the system,  not less. 

Obviously if it works, great, but if it works, why are we all not using noodles to route cables any old way we’d like? 

Thoughts? Proofs? Anybody using a noodle in an indexed shifting system have a story?

Thanks

-Kai

[Kim H.]

@Kai - 

Thank you for your compliment about my Honjo fenders.

In regards as to why I am using  a brake noodle for routing my rear brake cable and housing is because simply I want a smoother feel and better response in my rear cantilever brakes through my brake lever up front in my low bar Clem Smith Jr. L bicycle. This my first mixte frame.

The original way the cable and housing was, it felt  like it was binding and not giving me the correct braking response as I felt that there was  something that could be done in a better way to bring me more braking efficiency. After seeing Allan's picture of his 135 degree brake noodle on his Rivendell bicycle,  I believed and remain in believing that it will be the solution to smoother rear braking in comparison to the original cable and housing setup. 

Outside of all of the above, I honestly am unable to answer your other questions. I do not know. The answers would have to be offered from the RBWOB members' perspective and knowledge. 

With warm regards,

from a sunny day in the PNW,

Kim Hetzel. 

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[Allan McLane]

Kim,

The photo shows how Riv arranged the cable housing guide braze-on on this bike, a Rosco Platypus. The entire housing slides through the braze-on and the end of the housing slips into the entrance of the noodle. It isn’t really necessary but I also slipped a short length of clear tubing around the outside of noodle about midway along, just to hold it off the seat tube paint.

Here’s one source for that part:

https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=205

Allan in SE Vt

[Kim H.]

@Allan -

I thank-you for sharing with me the details of how your 135 degree brake noodle fits onto your rear brake cable housing. I appreciate it very much. Thank-you for the noodle link, as well. Universal Cycles is relatively close to me out of Oregon.

Kim Hetzel.

[JohnS]

+1 for Universal Cycles, they are my go to for Jagwire cables, SRAM chains and other mundane parts that I use when rebuilding a bike. Also always impressed with the creative use of brake cable noodles. As I recall someone posted using one at the stem or some such.

JohnS

[Kim H.]

@John -

Right on !

Kim Hetzel.

[Roy Summer]

The roller set up doesn’t really reduce friction as the cable rubs the roller and the roller turns as well.  The roller guide often moves and causes cable issues if you’re not careful moving the bike or loading a rack. The first set up (blue bike) should work better as long as you don’t make the cable loop too tight. Use Teflon lined housing, stainless cables, and a drop of light oil, and you’ll be good to go.

[Kim H.]

@Roy -

I thank-you for your reality check and viewpoints about a roller guide application. I will be using the 135 degree noodle as Allan has suggested.

Furthermore, I appreciate your comments that my cable should work better as long as I don’t make the cable loop too tight. In using Teflon lined housing, stainless cables, and a drop of light oil, I will be good to go.I will take these into consideration. Back in the 70s', there was cable housing called "elephant housing".

Thank-you.

Kim Hetzel.

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[iamkeith]

I missed this thread/question.  I did this on my susie, but mostly to be able to use canti brakes.  I didnt like the big loop of housing in the intended routing configuration, and imagined it would add friction and/or get in the way - whether that's true or not.  I also have 2.8 tires with fenders, and don't think V brakes would have sufficient tire clearance.  I'm happy with it.  I think that, for V brakes, you might eliminate some housing length and friction just by similarly  skipping the last tubular-shaped guide.  I think, for V brakes, the pulley adds unneccessary complexity.

[iamkeith]

Oh - I mis-read your question.  For canti brakes, this (pulley) is absolutely superior.  Cleaner AND less friction

   I'll find some more pictures when I get home.  I thought you were asking about V brakes

[Kim H.]

Yesterday was quite interesting to say the least.

After some tinkering and discovering with other parts available to me in my bicycle toolbox in my garage, I arrived at something that I am very satisfied with. See pictures.

I ditched the idea of using the noodle. I found a flexible spring cable housing. I did not need to cut or modify it whatsoever. I fashioned it to work with the inner fine tubing from the 135-degree noodle and a couple of cable ferrele stops. I was surprised to find myself doing something completely different than I anticipated from your original suggestion. I used the older version of the Dia Compe cantilever cable pulley hangers.

Kim Hetzel.

[R. Alexis]

Allan,

Excellent use of that 135 degree noodle. I have used a couple of these to route derailleur cable from the SunTour Command shifters in place of more cumbersome full cable run on my Wilderness Trail Bike Dirt Drop bar OX Brand Ti 29er cruiser. Also used a 90 degree one on the front cable hanger on my Gary Fisher Gemini tandem with Surly Open bar. Made for smoother cable routing. 

I would say a bike shop probably has them sitting in a parts drawer, but some shops may just toss them. Depends on the shop. 

Nice seeing standard canti's in use on these bikes. 

Thanks,

Reginald Alexis