Bike frame suggestions for longish distance 95% road comfort

[Andrew Turner]

Hello Group.

Maybe I'll just start this conversation off with what I'm searching for and I'll add the backstory after. 

• steel frame + fork (lugged preferably) that could clear 700x32 tires 
• rim brake
• lightish tubing ( I weigh a scant 132lbs at 6'1") 
• DT shifter braze-ons 
• Trying to keep the price to no more than $1000 for frame + fork
• Frames of all ages welcome 
• Designed to hold weight in the front (but I can make do with a saddlebag)

Bikes I've had in the past to try to fit these requirements: 

• VO Campeur: way better suited for heavy touring. Way stouter than I need.
• Black Mtn Cycles monster cross: pretty nice but that frame really wanted tires in the 38mm+ range which is overkill for me. 
• Rivendell Roadini: damn fine frame and very comfortable. Tig welded though and I might've gotten too large of frame with the 61cm. On my list of possibilities though. The quality was also a disappointment for my first riv, chipped paint out of the box and very poorly installed headset. 

I just got done with my first longer ride on a 58cm Gazelle Champion Mondial AA frame . I built it up because riding my first brevet on the VO Campeur a year ago made me realize how important a more nimble bike, especially for majority road use, is. But I might've gone too far. It's a rocket no doubt but I found it fatiguing having to stay so vigilant on descents. And putting the weight up front lead to a very close call down a particularly sketchy downhill. I think slacker geometry might help with that ;) 

All this to say, if any of you rando kids have some suggestions I'm all ears! 

Thanks Group, 

Andrew

[ted]

I'd suggest a right sized roadini, note the latest email says they are going to start letting buyers take care of frame prep and headset install, either themselves or via a shop they trust.

Or a Black Mountain Cycles Road. Heck of a good value for your $.

Were I buying new with your priorities I'd pick between those two based on aesthetic and stem style preference.

I'm very happy with my BMC Road V3, very well behaved, quite zippy. I also really like the looks of my wife's Roadini though I've not ridden it.

[Craig Montgomery]

Go vintage. Can't go wrong in frame design but finish is dicey. Paramount P15 or one of the Japanese classics like a Miyata 1000 or Centurion ProTour. English from 60's. 70's would thrill you. You'd love a Holdsworth Mistral. Trek 520's, 620's, 720's. Of course, locating one of these gems might be a bit problematic. 

Craig in Tucson

On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 7:06:09 PM UTC-7, Andrew Turner wrote:

[Mark Roland]

Craig wrote: Of course, locating one of these gems might be a bit problematic.

Not really. Just type in Reynolds 531 and watch them appear before your eyes. This load even includes a Holdworth, though it's a Professional, not a Mistral.

Here's my favorite from the ones I got to. Too bad it is from a seller that consistently prices too high--I guess because they are a charity? Sadly, 3x over your budget. And why they call it a "Professional Tourer" who knows. Sweet though! Love that color (I might take the decals off the fork.):

[Mark Roland]

Here is one more your size and price range--under a grand for complete bike. In my experience, these types of bikes will handle a light handlebar bag fine, but you did say saddlebag. The Banana Sack from Riv goes both ways. And if you don't like the vintage Dura Ace parts, you can sell them for a few dollars. I believe this comes with 27" wheels, which, in my experience, means you will almost certainly clear 32mm, probably 35mm.

[Mark Roland]

I just looked at a few of the close ups, this one probably sports a bit too much patina for the price. (Though it certainly wouldn't put me off if I could get a better deal on it, or if I knew it would be a keeper.) Happy hunting!

[Mark Roland]

Oops, one more and I promise to stop Shopping Vicariously. Just a few past the Bob Jackson is a Trek 620. Still overpriced in my view (though again, if you use it, it's still cheaper than a new tigged frame and will last at least as long), but a known geometry.

[Paul Brodek]

My retentiveness is having issues with how wide you're throwing your net, especially regarding handling, and where you want to put your weight. I wouldn't want to drop serious $$$ into a frame meant for long-distance comfort and handling till I knew what geometry works best for me.

My base prejudices: I don't do brevets/randos, I don't like low-trail handling, I prefer small-shop, handbuilt frames to production frames. The first two kinda don't matter, I think, because I'm not recommending any specific builders or geometry. But you did ask for feedback from rando kids, and I'm about as far away as you could get from either of those words. And it helps explain why I'm not necessarily making specific recs. The third does matter, which you'll see below.

My advice:

#1. Decide whether you want low-trail or med-/hi-trail. Don't spend serious $$$ until you know this

#2. If you can't decide #1 yet, drop your budget to $200-$300 and get a few lower-end, heavier frames to figure out #1

#3. Once you've decided #1, put lugs further down on your list

#4. Work to see if you can get your budget up at least a few $hundred higher than $1k

#5. If you can do #4, look for a builder who can either build custom in that price range, or is building small-batch frames in that price range

#6. If you can't do #4, look for folks selling those small-batch frames used, and throw a wider net. Include paceline, velocipede salon, ebay, pinkbike, craigslist, +++

#7. If you're looking at buying used, putting WTB ads in the classifieds doesn't hurt, just don't be obnoxious. Bunch o' folks have frames sitting around not on the front burner to sell, but if someone pipes up and wants something just like that, well, you could shake something loose

I think knowing your preferred geo/handling is key, don't want to sound like a broken record, so I'll leave it there.

Putting lugs further down your list means you're open to more small-batch builders who are doing tig'd construction.

Small-batch vs production: If I wanted a really nice low-trail, brevet-ready bike, I'd rather be on the lookout for an Ocean Air Rambler, Boulder Allround, Lyons L'avxxxx (too lazy to google the spelling), Norther/Lyons joint frame, etc than a vintage production almost anything. No disrespect to Craig M. and his awesome vintage machines and his expertise, but for me the production Paramounts, Miyatas, Bridgestones, etc, would be my test beds for the really nice frame. And gol darn I'd rather have something that came from a small, scrappy builder who knows how to torch a purpose-built frame than any '70s-'80s Trek production frame. I'd gladly give up lugs for that. 

BTW, if you decide you'd rather have mid-trail, and more weight in the back, there's not only likely equivalents of the frames I mentioned above, but maybe even more stuff available.

And I'm not really up on the gravel/groad scene, but if you decide mid-trail is better than lo-trail, should be lots of 1st-/2nd-gen groad frames out there that don't have disc brakes and carbon forks and disc brakes and thru-axles that might work well. 

Last thing that comes to mind is that very few tall production frames from the late-'70s through '80s were designed with 6'+ riders who only weighed 132lbs in mind, and they were built to minimize warranty claims when ridden sloppily by big lunks. And if they were '80s touring frames, they were built assuming you'd have 40lbs+ lashed to front/rear racks. "Nimble" is not the adjective that comes to mind.

Guess that's all the words I have on this for now.

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA

[jack loudon]

I would add the Rawland Nordavinden to your list.  It meets every one of your criteria (except tigged frame) and its standard diameter thinwall tubing would complement your light weight.  It's low trail though, so as Paul said, it's important to know your preferences.  I eventually decided low trail wasn't for me but liked the frame so much I had a mid-high trail fork built for it, and now can't think of another production frame that would meet my needs as well, at any price.  

Jack - Seattle

On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 7:06:09 PM UTC-7, Andrew Turner wrote:

Hello Group.

Maybe I'll just start this conversation off with what I'm searching for and I'll add the backstory after.

• steel frame + fork (lugged preferably) that could clear 700x32 tires 

• rim brakes

• lightish tubing ( I weigh a scant 132lbs at 6'1") 
• DT shifter braze-ons 
• Trying to keep the price to no more than $1000 for frame + fork
• Frames of all ages welcome 
• Designed to hold weight in the front (but I can make do with a saddlebag)

[Brady Smith]

If you decide low trail is what you want, you might consider the Soma Grand Randonneur. Designed by the Boulder Bicycle people, but way, way cheaper than their All-Road. If I had funds for a third bike, it would probably be the one I'd choose. 

On Saturday, June 27, 2020 at 10:06:09 PM UTC-4, Andrew Turner wrote:

[Andrew Turner]

Thank you all for the incredible information. I really do appreciate the time spent on my hunt for a glass hammer! Iv'e got a couple candidates so far, one being a local seller with a 93' (same age as me!) RB-1 frameset and another with a Mercian I'd like to get additional info on. The longer wheelbase of the Mercian is very tempting but I've also heard the RB-1 rides stable for it's geo so more to come. 

Wishing everyone good health, 

Andrew

[Mark Roland]

I thought some years RB-1s maxed out at about 28mm tires, though I could be wrong. I think the issue would be the bottom of the brake calipers. But maybe the '93 was one that took wider tires.

While I would agree with Paul that some of the touring frames mentioned would be a bit portly, a 70s/80s 531 frame in 60cm I think would be just fine with one of those mini handlebar bags from VO or a Banana Sack, if you want to be a rando kid.

[Brian Campbell]

I have a 1974 Motobecane Grand Record frame 60cm. Full 531. Takes 38mm tires and will easily take 35 and fenders. Paint is a bit rough but if you have an interest let me know and I will send pictures.

[Mike Godwin]

I had a Merican, I think it was the Mercian Colorado perhaps, but could fit 38s, used normal (long now) reach brakes. Full 531 and a great ride. Here it is in its 2-spd livery. A fine machine indeed. Divorce forced sale unfortunately. One of those bikes you kick yourself for letting go. And Bob too, but thinning the herd in a garageless 1 bedroom place makes you scrutinize the quiver.

Mike SLO CA

[Craig Montgomery]

Poor Andrew, 

     Are you confused yet Bucko? As you can see, this subject is just rife with opinion and subjectivity (and fun). We could go on for days. I realized I misinterpreted your original post and needs, so I'm gonna say go with Paul's suggestion #1. Get out there and test the field as cheaply as you can. 

     

     You need to decide what you like (find out what front end geometry makes you happy) and that takes getting on different bikes. Your lankiness really throws a monkey wrench into things. Gain 50 pounds (I'll give you some of mine). It'll be easier to find a bike. What Paul or Mark or I experience on the same bike could come up with three different interpretations of its ride quality. 

     

     These days I can pretty much get on a bike blindfolded, ride it around the block, and give you a basic run down of its geometry. That's only taken 30 years but I've narrowed my own preferences down to 2 or 3 geometry types. And they all include low-mid-high trail, long-short chainstays, long-short top tubes, head-seat angles of from 70 to 75 degrees and a variety of tube sizes and thicknesses. Shazam! So have patience.

     

     Grab up that Motobecane or something like this Nashbar (offer two bills-it was originally going for $167 a couple years back). 

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Nashbar-Toure-Vintage-Road-Bike-Frame-59cm-Large-Japan-Maruishi-Tange-Charity/264690704098?hash=item3da0cb9ee2:g:t40AAOSw6CBcqp0w

     
     Ride your buddie's bikes. Just make sure each bike is different or you'll never learn. If you don't have the bikes specs all you can do is ride it and take some basic measurements. After a while you should be able to give a bike a side glance and be able to tell about how it'll ride.  And when you decide, open up this thread again. I'd like to know what you got and how it rides for you. 

Craig in Tucson

[Andrew Turner]

The search has come to an end. Ironically, the person I bought the BMC monster cross frame from messaged me with an offer I couldn't refuse. It's a like-new 90's FW Evans with sport touring geometry, 531 lugged steel, canti-brakes, and accommodations for racks + fenders. As long as it arrives in one piece, I think I've really lucked out and it'll most likely consolidate my stable back to one bike. 

Happy riding, 
Andrew

[ted]

Wahoo. Gotta love that.

Time to go buy a lottery ticket while your luck is hot.

Congratulations.

[Ian A]

The thread can't close until you post photos and ride report....

IanA Alberta Canada

[Benz Ouyang, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 1:19:47 PM UTC-7, Brady Smith wrote:

If you decide low trail is what you want, you might consider the Soma Grand Randonneur. Designed by the Boulder Bicycle people, but way, way cheaper than their All-Road.…

…not to mention that Boulder Bicycle had kinda stopped making frames to concentrate on their vintage parts offerings.

Andrew (the OP) is familiar with Velo-Orange, so I don't know why he didn't put the Pass Hunter on his list. It's got all his wants, except for rim brakes. OK, maybe a 35mm ø steel downtube isn't going to plane…

[Andrew Turner]

First ride report for the FW Evans frame! 

Long story short, I simply couldn't be happier with how the bike performs. It rides most similar to the Roadini I had a while back with it's springy front-end and general Cadillac feel but with the added bonus of lugs. I do suspect it has a lower trail, though. There's a slight twitchiness unloaded in the front as you see it here but that will be resolved soon. Things left to do on the bike include installing the front fender, an M12 rack + basket, and upgrading the tires to some Jack Brown's. There's a chance I'll replace the VO Nouveau Randonneur Handlebar as well. They're nice but incredibly different than what I'm used to feeling, mainly due to how sharp the swoops are. 

[Greg J]

that's a great looking bike!  congrats!  it is exactly what I would have suggested in the first place also.  Lots of older, nice riding frames with clearance for bigger tires.

best, Greg

[Lyman Labry]

Not being familiar with the Rambouillet, I went searching for info.  One reviewer thought the Rambo was the early equivalent of today’s Roadeo.  Do you think this is the case?

Thanks!

On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 5:16 AM Surlyprof <jmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/pb0nSlJHVn0

Would you fit a 60 Rambouillet?  John’s looks like a great deal.

John
Niles, CA

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[RichS]

John,

The Roadeo frame is much lighter than the Ram's. Definitely not equivalent.

Best,

Rich in ATL

On Saturday, July 18, 2020 at 2:28:05 PM UTC-4, Tirebiter ATX wrote:

Not being familiar with the Rambouillet, I went searching for info.  One reviewer thought the Rambo was the early equivalent of today’s Roadeo.  Do you think this is the case?

Thanks!

On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 5:16 AM Surlyprof <jmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/pb0nSlJHVn0

Would you fit a 60 Rambouillet?  John’s looks like a great deal.

John
Niles, CA

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[Reid Echols]

I’m so glad it arrived in one piece, and that you’re digging the ride! Does my heart good to see a frame on the road instead of on my wall. Time to take the Homer out!

Reid in Austin

[William deRosset]

Dear Andrew,

You have found your huckleberry, but given your weight and design constraints, I would also suggest a UJB designed around 27"(28-630) wheels and repurposed to 700c (32-622). Or something like a Boulder Bicycle Road Sport ( which would not be front-loading).

The UJBs will have BSC threading (or can be easily modified to do so). If you pick one on the high end of the parts range while still built around 27" wheels it will have a 531c tubing spec, which was the standard for fun and lively mid-sized bikes since the late 1930's. They will typically have eyelets for fenders.

The Boulder Bicycle Road Sport is now unobtainium new, but was designed around the basic sporting needs you describe (note that I helped design it). 32mm tires, flexible tubing for lighter riders, and 57-reach brakes; fork rake bumped up for the wider tires. It was not designed for fenders. Everyone involved with that project ended up with one in their regular rotation.

Mine was a welded prototype, and is my most-ridden machine in these CoViD-19 no-commute-to-work-for-me times. It has served as a racing bike, a cx bike, my general road machine, and handles gravel and 32mm tires with aplomb. Mine is not front loaded, but Mike Kone straps a giant Berthoud to his and rides hard with it.

They are around on the used market in a silver-brazed longpoint lugged version with nicely-thinned Cinelli-drilled lugs. Mine is welded, and I kinda regret not getting one with lugs after the prototype came out so well.

Best Regards,

Will
William M deRosset
Fort Collins CO USA

[Dave Johnston]

How much lighter is a Roadeo? My 56cm Ram was Frame=4.8lb, fork = 1.7lb on my fishing scale.

-Dave J

[Andrew Turner]

DRIVE SIDE UPDATE! 

After I had the frame modified, I was running it raw until a cringey ride on salty roads convinced me to get it powder coated. Here's the final build! Thanks again Reid. Still loving it. 

my favorite detail is the SimWorks stem cap: 

[Patrick Moore]

Very nice!

What are those tires, and (as someone who after 2 decades installed cantilevers on a new frame), what are the brakes?

And, what is that black thing sticking out behind the saddle just above the reflective triangle?

Ten thousand bonus points for that light bracket!

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Paul Brodek]

I spy Rene Herse Bon Jon Pass Extralight 38-622.

Looks great---congrats!

Who did the repaint?

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA

[Paul Brodek]

Oh, and forgive my language, but the rear protruding black thingie is labeled "Ass Saver," so a demi-fender, crud-catcher device.

Can't ID the cantis, I've seen 'em before, but...look wide profile, and also look to have a nice, longish slot for wide-range brake shoe height adjustment.

Paul Brodek
Hillsdale, NJ USA

On Saturday, January 23, 2021 at 5:38:29 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

Your eyes or your screen are better than mine; I can't read the fine print.

I thought that the back flap device might be an a** *aver but was too polite to say so.

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[Andrew Turner]

You've nailed it. The tires are 35mm tubeless Bon Jon Pass' Extra Lights. I have nothing but good things to say about them thus far, I just wish I wasn't feeling so darn gothic when I got the black sidewalls, I think tan sidewalls would've really complimented the "paint." The powder coating was done locally by Powder Tech Services and I'd give them a solid B+. They by no means specialize in bike frames and the amount of masking they did correctly blew me away, and it only ran me $140. And you are correct, that is indeed an Ass Saver: there to do the bare minimum in rain / mud protection. As far as the brakes go, they are the Dia Compe 980's that Rivendell sells. So far they're my favorite canti's. Paul's are stronger but they're also way grabbier which I don't really need for the terrain I mostly see. The aesthetics of the Dia Compe's is also a selling point especially for lugged frames IMO, AND half the price of the way fancier Rene Herse ones which I will just have to drool over via a computer screen.  

Cheers, 

Andrew

[Patrick Moore]

I wish I'd been able to use your powder coater when I had my last frame, late spring 2020, powdercoated. The builder used a new vendor who did a pretty mediocre job; not horrible, but if you look really closely, you can see orange peel-type roughness in certain areas. Too bad, because the earlier service did really wonderful work -- I've had at least 3 frames done by him; and at the best, there is a sort of "liquid" look that, IMO, looks nicer than many much more expensive paint jobs. Oh well.

I'll have to remember the Dia Comp 980s. I see Riv is out of stock, but they do look decent and, if they stop well and set up without huge hassle, then IMO they're worth a place on the short list.

On Sat, Jan 23, 2021 at 10:11 PM Andrew Turner <andyree...@gmail.com> wrote:

You've nailed it. The tires are 35mm tubeless Bon Jon Pass' Extra Lights. I have nothing but good things to say about them thus far, I just wish I wasn't feeling so darn gothic when I got the black sidewalls, I think tan sidewalls would've really complimented the "paint." The powder coating was done locally by Powder Tech Services and I'd give them a solid B+. They by no means specialize in bike frames and the amount of masking they did correctly blew me away, and it only ran me $140. And you are correct, that is indeed an Ass Saver: there to do the bare minimum in rain / mud protection. As far as the brakes go, they are the Dia Compe 980's that Rivendell sells. So far they're my favorite canti's. Paul's are stronger but they're also way grabbier which I don't really need for the terrain I mostly see. The aesthetics of the Dia Compe's is also a selling point especially for lugged frames IMO, AND half the price of the way fancier Rene Herse ones which I will just have to drool over via a computer screen.  

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[R Shannon]

Andrew, that's a great looking bike. The blackwall Bon Jons look just fine to me. Agree on your assessment of the Dia Compe 980s. 

Patrick Moore asked about the 980s: setup is no easier or more difficult than other cantis I've used (Paul, Shimano); silver finish! No squeal with Kool Stop pads.

The only negative I've experienced is that the fine adjustment isn't as effective as I would prefer. I still like 'em though!

Best,

Rich in ATL

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