Hub Play

[John Rinker]

Please pardon if this is not the forum for this and kindly redirect me if possible. 

The rear wheel of my Hunq finds a White M15 that is about 4 or so years old at its center. Several years ago it developed a bit of play and I haven't been able to solve the issue. I have adjusted it meticulously according to White's specifications, but the play resurfaces after a few kilometers of riding.

I. have a. new set of bearings for the hub, but before I replace them I thought I'd reach out to see if anyone might offer a simpler fix. 

CHeers,

John

[Garth]

I'd contact WI if it were me as they know their goods best. The tele is most effective as it allows for instantaneous Q&A. 

[Jeffrey Arita]

John,

As Garth advises, I too would reach out to White Industries.  I had a question regarding a rear hub awhile ago and they were very helpful.  Speaking on the phone in a two-way is, IMHO, always better.  They might need to eventually inspect the hub, so that might happen.  Either way, WI has been outstanding, at least for me.  Good luck.

Best regards,

Jeff

Claremont, CA

[S. Greco]

I have this same issue with one of my M15 hubs. Please post if you get a solid answer. 

My LBS recommended new bearings which I bought and installed, but it did not fix the issue.

[John Rinker]

Garth and Jeffrey,

Thank you very much for your kind replies. Yes, this was my first course of action when the problem first arose, and while WI contacts at the time were attentive and wished to help, I recall we didn't really come to a solution. I do have a conversation in the wings with another knowledgeable fellow, so I'll see where this one takes me. I contact WI again if necessary.

S.Greco, I'll keep you informed should my issue be resolved. 

Cheers,

John

[Garth]

John, I know it's impossible to put into words how much play you are experiencing, but if it helps at all many cartridge bearing hub with radial type bearings exhibit a small amount of lateral play. It's not enough to notice when riding or braking, only when you're off the bike and wiggle the rim. Radial type cartridges are preloaded and nonadjustable. While I see WI shows the end being adjustable, other that to snug up the end I don't see any other benefit to it. If the bearings were angular contact type then yes it could be adjusted. As I was writing this I was curious, and sure, that someone has replaced their outermost radial bearings with AC type, and sure enough I found this thread :  https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/1074471-swap-radial-cartridge-angular-contact-bearings.html

The relevant reply after many "whys and no you can'ts" from people who have not done it, is #15 ... and watch the video contained in reply #19 for a brief on the differences between radial and AC cartridge bearings. 

Thanks

I posed this question to my wheel builder, Jude at Sugar, and here is what she said about using AC bearings with my White T11 hub:

Yes, it would be ideal to have angular contact bearings as the outermost bearings in the hub. White Industries doesn't do this as a stock option because it's a lot of bearings for them to manage in inventory. But, as we replace bearings here, we use angular contact bearings which will require an adjustment.

Then I asked about the preload issue and her response was:

The locking collar on the non-drive side is actually an adjusting collar. So you'll lock down the collar just until the play disappears which is much like doing the bearing adjustment but you will have to be aware of any play in your wheel.

So I guess its possible but not clear why its ideal on the outermost bearings.

  

The answer to "why" would be longevity of the bearings and the ability to remove any play. You just have to be aware of your preload, like on loose ball hubs. 

Yay ! 

[John Rinker]

Thank you, Garth! What an education this is, and I really appreciate the time and effort you've put into helping me understand this. 

As for how much play, if I had to guess I'd say that when I grab my wheel at the tire a move it laterally to test for play there's maybe a 1-2mm shift. Maybe? I don't notice it when I'm riding. Then again, I'm not even sure what I would be noticing if the wheel were flopping around as I ride. 

However, I have noticed of late that sometimes when I'm braking in a corner there's a little bit of a shriek from the rear rim. This is, in fact, what got me thinking about the play again after coming to terms with it for some time. Could be just an improperly adjusted brake pad, but I did just change them (salmon thinlines), set them up properly, and still a little noise while cornering. Somehow I'm imagining the angle of contact between the brake pad and the rim changes slightly while in a corner due to the play in the hub, and this is what's causing the noise. But, I'm certainly not knowledgeable enough for this to be anything but an hypothesis. 

I'm looking forward to investigating the RC vs AC bearings. In the meantime, my take-away from your note is that as long as I have radial bearings I should expect some play in the hub when off the bike.

Thanks again!

John

[Garth]

Great John !  FWIW, I have 2 sets of Specialized cartridge bearing hubs(radial type bearings) from the early 80's that have that same kind of lateral play. I've been riding them all this time and I just consider it a harmless quirk. They're interesting in that they use a threaded axle and a flat, non-angled cone and washers and nuts. They look just like loose ball hubs from the outside, and if I replaced the radial bearings with AC ones I would be able to preload them just like loose ball hubs. I tried to remove the play long ago but realized the play is inherent in the bearings. The radial bearings still roll fine so if something isn't broke I'm not going to touch them. I can't tell you how many times I've "tried" to fix what isn't broke and ended up breaking what was never broken in the first place.

I also have a couple sets of Phil Wood hubs that also use radial bearings but they don't have any play, so the bearings they use are possibly of higher tolerances, or maybe there's more drag from the sealing that keeps any play at bay. That's just speculation. They roll fine so once again I'm not touching them !  

So if your bearings are running smooth you may as well keep riding them. If they ever need replacing then you could get a pair of AC ones(or some Phil Wood radials) , but remember it's only the outside bearings(if it uses 2 pairs per side) that can be AC as there is no way to load the inner ones. I think WI uses Enduro bearings, which are of middle-of-the-road quality. Phil bearings are considered premium, at least for bicycle applications that is. 

[Jeffrey Arita]

FWIW: I bought a very well-used DTSwiss wheelset (240S hubs) a bit ago.  The guy I bought the wheelset from is a bikepacker and he really rode those wheels (good for him).

I re-laced the rear hub to my rim of choice and built it up into a complete wheel.....after I installed it there was definitely lateral play: with the wheel/tire on the bike, bike on the ground, grab the tire between the thumb and index finger and move side to side.  Definitely a perceptible bit of play both ways.

Apparently this issue is fairly well known with DTSwiss 240S hubs (I found out after buying the wheelset of course).  The inner driveside bearing takes the most beating and should be checked and replaced.  Sooooo, it looks like I will be taking that rear hub apart.

As an aside, I also have an old-ish Shimano FH-3500 hub (Sora).  It has regular cup & cone bearings and it is like a Timex: it takes a beating and keeps on ticking.

Jeff

[Joe Bernard]

Huh, I've learned a new thing. The MI5 on my custom is a year old and not ridden hard, I grabbed the tire and wiggled and there's at least a mm or two of play in mine, too. I remember in the very early years of Riv that Grant mentioned Bullseye hubs do this and to basically ignore it. Until I've done a 
lot more riding..ignore it I shall. 

[brendonoid]

I have recently purchased an MI5 hub that I haven't laced yet and now im feeling like I shouldn't have spent the money? My 10 year old Phil Wood tourings don't have any play at all. The axle set up on the Phils 'pre loads' the bearings though you'd think that would loosen after thousands of kms. I normally steer clear of cartridge bearings but old shimano hubs have gotten so expensive lately that I thought I'd give the White's a go...

This is an interesting thread.

[Nick Payne]

On Thursday, 27 January 2022 at 6:36:02 am UTC+11 Joe Bernard wrote:

I remember in the very early years of Riv that Grant mentioned Bullseye hubs do this and to basically ignore it. Until I've done a 
lot more riding..ignore it I shall.

I have some Bullseye hubs that are now almost 40 years old, and they have exhibited this play since new, and still exhibit it to much the same degree. I replace the 6001 bearings in them every few years. There is much the same play in the Bullseye roller bearing bottom brackets, of which I still have a couple in use. If you grab the crankarms and waggle them, some small amount of play can be detected, and could be detected even when the BBs were brand new.

Of the cartridge bearing hubs that I have, only the White Industries and Onyx hubs have adjusting collars that would allow for correct preload to be set if the deep groove radial bearings were replaced with angular contact bearings.

Nick

[John Rinker]

I agree- a very interesting discussion. Regarding my hub, it spins beautifully and so I'll live with the quirky radial bearing play. Out of curiosity, the bearings are ABEC 6902. Does this mean if I wanted one day to replace them with angular bearings I would go with 7902s? Seems logical, but until yesterday I had no idea bearings came in other flavors. 

On a side note, I have some 25-year-old Chris King hubs that run beautifully with no play. Would these contain angular bearings or just really good radial bearings like the Phils?

Cheers,

John

[Jeffrey Arita]

Well, I gotta say, this topic (the humble bearing) can be one heckuva rabbit hole!  John, this is likely why your Chris King's are probably still going strong - go here, scroll down to "Our Bearings" and watch CK's video.

CK manufacture their own sealed angular contact bearings.  Amazing since CK can then control each and every aspect of all of their components.  Makes complete sense.

It appears that WI has partnered with Enduro Bearings.

It would be an interesting exercise to convert from radial to angular contact bearings - yet another project!  I have to say, I'm hesitant to try since I'd likely have to buy or borrow more drifts and tools.

I recently serviced my rear hub for my Rambouillet (Shimano Ultegra FH-6500).  I think that hub was introduced around 2002-2003 or so.  I bought the Ram from a fellow RBW person on this forum and it was ridden well.  After disassembling the hub it was in very good condition.  I cleaned out the cup and cones and used Shimano's "Premium" grease and it buttoned up nicely.  Amazing longevity.   Those cup and cone angular contact bearings last a long time. 

Best regards, 

Jeff

Claremont, CA  

[John Rinker]

My hub play issue is solved. After speaking with a wheelbuilder with plenty of experience with these hubs, I learned my issue was caused by not pressing firmly enough on the collar when adjusting the hub and tightening the set screws. Fearful of over loading the bearings, I was reluctant to put too much pressure on the collar, but it turns out I just wasn't getting the adjusment tight enough. 

I did confirm with WI that, yes, I should be pressing 'firmly' on the collar. I was also told by the same rep that it is possible "to put too much preload on the bearing" as the collar presses on the inner race of the bearing. I guess this is where one has to feel their way into the best adjustment. I was able to do this and my hub spins nicely with no play.

I do like my White hub, but I must say I appreciate the manner of adjustment on my Chris King hubs. I know- different bearing types (apparently)- but the threaded adjuster just seems more elegant.

Cheers,

John

On Tuesday, January 25, 2022 at 10:47:39 PM UTC+9 S. Greco wrote:

[S. Greco]

I recently came across this video which is a good visual for how to fix for this issue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuH80YRPFuM