Jobst Brandt thought experiment: What would he ride today?

[Andrew Turner]

I'm in the process of building a JB-inspired road bike but with a nod to current bicycle trends: mainly wider tires and spinnier gearing. As a result, it's made me wonder what he would be riding today if you spliced his timeline and moved his prime days to current day.

Today's Radavist article really fueled that question so I'd like to open it up to this group who likely have much more insight into the man and his bike(s). 

What are we thinking? Rim brakes or disc? Carbon? Steel? Ti? I see a lot of similarities between him and Jan Heine as far as a desire for performance and reliability, so perhaps he'd lean towards a rando build?  

Take it away if you wish, 
Andrew

[lconley]

One thing I notice in those photos is that no one was wearing a helmet.

Laing

[Steven Sweedler]

Those pictures were taken before helmets were commonly available. During Bikecentennial helmets were rare. Steve

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Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

[George Schick]

True.  I remember those days.  The most you see in one or two of those photos are riders wearing "leather hair nets," except for one who looks like he has a mountaineering helmet.  Another thing I notice is much shorter cycling shorts, probably all wool with a natural chamois crotch.

[Eric Marth]

Interesting discussion topic, Andrew. I picture Jobst today on a bike very similar to what he ran most of his life. Steel frame, no racks, rim brakes. Maybe a frame that would accommodate wider tires. 

Here's a picture of Jobst from his last Alpine tour in 2008 (read more here). 

I'm not sure what make of frames he was riding in this era. But after 50 years of touring thousands of miles every summer in Italy, Switzerland and France (in addition to the long rides in California) I can't see him switching up and running racks or a rando build. He was famously ornery and I think he had his system right where he wanted it. He'd tour with a Carradice and stayed in hotels along the way (many with friends and families he'd met in the 1950s). 

As for frame material, this is of course a guess, but I'd wager he'd stick with steel. He rode well into the carbon era. As Tom shared in the Radavist article today Brandt would get a new frame every few years, worried about damage or fractures. He chose yellow paint for his bikes because he thought it was the best for highlighting damage. I could see his familiarity with steel keeping him on steel frames. And I could see the possibility of catastrophic failure keeping him from carbon. 

Regarding helmets, I don't think Brandt ever wore one. He probably shared an explanation for this back on rec.bicycles.tech but that's way before my time. 

[Mackenzy Albright]

I'm also curious about the opinion of Brandt on modern cycling technology. 

One thing I've noticed is he is feverishly adamant about 1. Preventative failures and design flaws even if miniscule. 2. Repairability in the field. 

It makes me wonder about opinions on carbon. If you get a chip or crack failure is catastrophic and unrepairable. Also with discs you can have inconsistent braking with heat fade. 

I recall a Sheldon brown thread on internally geared hubs and he (Brandt) and Sheldon and other forum members were having a lively debate in AW3 hubs. Brandt argued due to false neutrals they should never be used and we're garbage even though the idea is great. Others argued it's infrequent and due to installation error (cable slack). I think about the cult following of the AW3 and people love them. 

It seemed brandt loved his steel, skinny tires, and rim brakes. I would genuinely love to see what he picked and chose as valid technological advances. 

[Eric Marth]

George — I do wish that there was more simple wool out there in nice solid colors and I think generally shorts are too long! 

[George Schick]

I notice from the 2008 photo that he's migrated to clipless shoes and pedals.  Also, he's wearing regular shorts instead of a pair of cycling-specific ones.  Personally, I have to disagree about the wool.  I find the newer Spandex shorts to be much more comfortable, especially so since they are longer.  Also, the crotch material they're using nowadays is more comfortable, as well.  I used to develop allergies from the wool and often came  home with a rash and the shorter ones always seemed to ride up more than the longer ones do.  And that chamois used to bunch up like crazy.  But these are individual preferences.

[Jeffrey Arita]

Andrew,

Thank you for sharing.  The article was definitely worth the read.  A few things stood out to me:

- they were/are all extremely fit.

- fear was not a word in their vocabulary.

- what camaraderie (and competition) at the same time.

- the Higgins' couple rock.  Of course the stoker is doing all the work ;)

Jeff

Claremont, CA

(who's beloved stoker [Lori] continues to do all the work)

[Andrew Turner]

I think I'd agree that Jobst would remain an advocate for the rim brake...PROBABLY. But just to play devil's advocate, if Jobst was in his prime today, he wouldn't have been brought up with the old-school tech that we're familiar with him using, but I suppose being a bit of a retrogrouch could still be in his cards. To me, it would depend heavily on his opinion towards modern wheel design and if the 11 (or 12) speed hub would be a yay or nay. As I'm typing this, I'm reminded of Ritchey's comment on his use of his shifters, or lack-there-of, so I'm leaning towards him reverting to shorter free-hub bodies. Hell, maybe he'd have beat Rivendell to the modern-day 7 speed rear hub! Or perhaps, the Rene Herse rear mech would tickle his fancy. Tough call. He'd certainly ride whatever it is to the ground though. 

[Victor Hanson]

That's true, but Jobst, Peter Johnson, John Loomis, Tom Ritchey, Charlie Cunningham, are all members of the Less Is More club.   130mm/135mm not enough room for a cassette, adequate strength hub and disc rotor to all fit. 

vtw d

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[Eric Marth]

I remember reading somewhere Jobst thought the 6 speeds on his freewheel were more than enough. And have read in more place's than today's TR/JB piece that Jobst didn't shift very much! Vaguely recall a direct quote from him saying he didn't shift every time the terrain changed. 

[Jeremy Till]

Loved the Radavist article today, been a long time admirer of JB, used to loving pouring over his rec.bicycles.tech postings archived on yarchive.net. In terms of the thought experiment of what he would be riding today, as far as I know this was his last bike that he rode up to his death in 2015, and features the few technological advances of the last ~50 years that he found valuable: lightweight clinchers, freehub rear wheel (although specifically Shimano freehubs, he felt the HuGi/DT Swiss design was flawed), clipless pedals, and threadless headset/stem (the latter two of which Tom Ritchey discusses in the Radavist article and takes credit for). I sincerely doubt that any of the "advances" of the last 7-8 years would have changed JB's views much. Even the "gravel" trend and the move towards wider tires on road bikes--he rode 28mm tires everywhere and felt that wider tires really weren't necessary for his style of riding.

-Jeremy Till

Sacramento, CA 

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 7:49:25 AM UTC-8 andyree...@gmail.com wrote:

[lconley]

If he were still around, I think he would probably still have the same setup as the 2008 photo, steel, rim brakes, clipless pedals. 

But that is not the question that seems to have been posed. As I understand the question, it is if his prime days were now, what would he be riding - basically not a silent generation member, but a later millennial or early gen-Xer, but still a mechanical engineer, still concerned with reliability, and dare I say it, under-biking. So maybe he still ends up on a metal, rimmed braked bike. I think it may be easier to eliminate some things, I don't see him with electronic shifting, that just adds more possible unrepairable-on-the-road failure points. I want to say no disc either - as it adds stress to the fork and reduces the reliability of the front end of the bike. I kind of envision him on a stripped down 80th anniversary Rene-Herse or Rivendell Rodeo, or possibly some sort of titanium frame.

I am a mechanical engineer also, but a boomer.

Laing

[Andrew Turner]

Laing, I think you made a lot of solid arguments. Custom steel still feels like the way he'd go, and probably not so dissimilar to his no-frills road bikes of yore. I'm certainly grateful for his impact on the bicycle, riders, and builders of today, and for the journalists keeping his name alive!

[Chris Halasz]

Well, Tom Ritchey may be credited with influencing newer bike technology to (a well-opinionated) Jobst. Jobst, who preferred steel drop bars. 

Having said that, Tom and Martha have discs on (at least) one of their tandems (but not all), and at Martha's request (according to Tom). That tandem is not sporting very large tires (32mm maybe?), and that tandem goes very, very fast uphill (Tom remains in enviable condition in his mid-60s). I gather the Ritcheys apply technology to the specific requirements, so the latest applies only where needed. 

So, yeah, I wouldn't guess Jobst changing too much from his beautiful fillet-brazed yellow Randy Johnson bike. Maybe by now he'd need a new frame, and Tom a likely candidate to (again) be the selected builder. 

I haven't had a built-by-Tom bike in decades, and wouldn't mind one myself. 

Fond memories of Jobst on wreck.bikes.tech (sic). 

Cheers, 

Chris

SB, CA

[Philip Williamson]

I think he'd ride a very similar bike today to the ones he rode for 50 years. 

• Steel. He wasn't swayed by aluminum, titanium, or carbon, the first time around, so nu-Jobst wouldn't choose them either. Steel is still tough, reliable, and cheap. 
• Fillet brazed? I imagine this was for aesthetics, but I'd need to dive into The Jobst Hole to find out. 
• Rim brakes, not discs. Single pivot sidepulls (??) indicate no worries about stopping with a simple, light, rim brake. 
• Supple tires, but still narrow. I would love to see Jobst and Jan debate the testing protocol.
• Downtube shifters. Simple, light, easy cabling, and there for the two times a day he'd shift. 
• Yellow. 

Philip 

rec.bicycles.tech

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 1:59:48 PM UTC-8 andyree...@gmail.com wrote:

[Eric Daume]

The Riv list imagining Jobst riding a steel frame with rim brakes? Shocking!

Eric

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[Mackenzy Albright]

Haha! Touché Eric. I feel like Brandt falls into the heros of the retrogrouch. Grant, Sheldon Brown, Rando Jan (not to be confused with Business Jan)

Id love to hear a considerate counterpoint from somebody that says he'd be on a 54mm tire carbon open...

[Piaw Na]

I've actually met Jobst while touring (and he showed up for Western Wheeler rides once in a while). I was at the Jobst memorial ride with Tom Ritchey, etc., and watched as Ritchey cleared tree roots, etc., with 23mm tires that I wouldn't be able to do with a MTB. Jobst, once he found something that worked, would stick to it. He had wheels that had seen north of 300K miles, replacing the rims as they wore out. He was an excellent mechanic, and would think nothing of overhauling hubs, freewheels, or rebuilding new wheels in the middle of a tour. As such, he could ride stuff that many consider too much trouble to maintain (I discovered that preload adjustment on shimano ball bearing hubs to be enough trouble that I didn't want to do it myself, not having practiced sufficiently). His high route over the Melchsee Frutt to Englestalp is still one of the most hauntingly beautiful rides that lives in my memory, and I will tell you that while he didn't go for the lightest equipment you could find for durability reasons, there was no question that he went for as light a bike as possible because on rides like that you'd have to carry the bike over fences, turnstiles, etc. That style of touring precludes a lot of the heavy equipment that you find on say, th

e typical Cheviots and Platypuses I see. (I never put my wife's Cheviot on a bike rack without commenting on how heavy the bike is --- and that's with the bike being unloaded)

For those who have a copy of the Rough Stuff Fellowship archives, there's a picture in there of a tourist climbing a ladder with his bicycle strapped on his back. Jobst never did anything that extreme but he was certainly not afraid of walking and bicycle portage. He was strong but he also pared his equipment to the point where his bicycle didn't have bottle cages for water. (The man was a camel and drank out of mountain streams, etc over the years without consequences --- I wouldn't trust my luck that far!)

[Patrick Moore]

Given the stubbornness and native retrogrouchery he exhibited during his 80-something years of riding -- he was riding basically the same sort of bike in 2010 as he rode in 1960 -- I'd guess that if he were riding in 2023 he'd be riding the same thing. 

I think this is one of his last bikes; an all terrain bike by his usage. He did progress to a threadless stem and clipless pedals.

Laing remarks on the absence of helmets in the Tom Ritchey article photos. The photos seem to be from the 1970s or early 1980s, back before helmets became common; I recall buying my first helmet circa 1986 or 1987 -- that heavy Bell VI-Pro made of thick, stiff plastic, but helmets then at least in W DC, were just becoming common.

The proportion of his 700C wheels to his seat tube -- 68 cm? -- is very like that of my 559 wheels to my 58 cm seat tube.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Patrick Moore]

I've read that AW hubs made before a certain date -- 1960s? -- had a design flaw that caused whatever tiny little metal part inside the hub -- Clutch? Pegs that engage the clutch? -- would flex in such a way to tend toward clutch disengagement under high torque. This was fixed in later models. Of course, shifter misadjustment was another cause. But later AWs properly adjusted are fine, per Sheldon. And other 3 speed hubs, the AM in particular, were made for enthusiasts and have a reputation for durability and reliability.

At any rate, I torqued AWs and my AM up many hills in 2nd and 3rd gears with no problems.

But I don't expect that Jobst would switch to IGHs were he riding today.

On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 10:23 AM Mackenzy Albright <mackenzy...@gmail.com> wrote:

... I recall a Sheldon brown thread on internally geared hubs and he (Brandt) and Sheldon and other forum members were having a lively debate in AW3 hubs. Brandt argued due to false neutrals they should never be used and we're garbage even though the idea is great. Others argued it's infrequent and due to installation error (cable slack). I think about the cult following of the AW3 and people love them.

[lconley]

I think fillet brazing allowed him complete freedom of frame geometry and tube sizing, without compromising strength (vs. lugs). I needed somewhat different geometry and tube sizing on my custom, due to my weight and loooong torso, and that resulted in a fillet brazed bottom bracket as there were no readily available BB lug. From what I think I know, fillet brazing is stronger than TIG, as it spreads the stress over a greater area. I think I also read once that fillet brazing is sometime used over top of TIG.

Laing

[Eric Marth]

I can't wrap my head around the gearing in the pictures Jeremy shared. Good lord! He was pushing some big gears all the way to the end. 

[Patrick Moore]

I'd be interested to hear others' opinions about this; I hope it's true -- ie, I hope fillet brazing is one of the stronger joining methods. Ideas?

Chauncey Matthews used bilaminate construction on my Matthews 1 (Fat tire road bike) and all fillet brazing on the 2020 road bike. 

Speaking of which: Blast from past? As I Googled bilaminate construction just now, the top entry in a page of irrelevant biochemical links just happened to be this: 

http://www.halletthandbuiltcycles.com/methods.html

Richard Hallet, frame builder, prices in GBPs. Can this be the by now very old Richard Hallet who for decades owned World Champion Bicycles at the intersection of Lead and Yale SE here in ABQ, NM? He was a curmudgeon, but he had the best collection of important old bikes that I've seen, including a pristine, probably repro boneshaker and, in the window, an 1890s men's cycling costume that, he claimed, he repeatedly refused to sell to the Smithsonian. I got onto his good side and he took me a couple of blocks to his warehouse where he had a huge collection of museum-quality historical bikes, including a track frame used by Reg Harris. He also showed me a new-in-box Cyclo rear derailleur, the rod-and-pulley model, notable as much for being NOS as for being a Cyclo rod/pulley rd. He retired and left ABQ circa 2002 -- I gave him a broken Orbit tandem just before he moved.

Does anyone know?

On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 6:24 AM lconley <lco...@brph.com> wrote:

... From what I think I know, fillet brazing is stronger than TIG, as it spreads the stress over a greater area. I think I also read once that fillet brazing is sometime used over top of TIG

[Patrick Moore]

Not Jobst, but I recall reading somewhere a remark by Skye Yeager that Coppi climbed the cols in a 46/19. Funny: watching old pro racing, the riders grunt up hills at 20 rpm and spin out seated in sprints at 160 rpm, whereas it's the opposite today.

[John Dewey]

Yes, that would be most interesting debate, the two Js: Jobst V. Jan. Of course, Jobst had solid engineering chops as exhibited in his work at Porsche. 

Ah, helmet debate. Jobst did land on his head & that was the end of the road for him. Sadly...or maybe not.

BEST / Jock Dewey

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[Piaw Na]

No. He did not land on his head! His brain injury was caused by a stroke during the surgery that was done after he'd broken his leg from a fall.

[Mackenzy Albright]

For some reason I thought I had read that fillet joints were lighter and stronger than lugs. If I recall quite a few concourse des machines bikes were fillet vs lugged. I just assumed it was more tedious construction because you have to fille joints as well as it's easier to overheat tubes. I love lugs but love the looks of fillet brazed when I see them. Especially older Ritchey MTBs. 

On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 at 10:10:30 AM UTC-8 John Dewey wrote:

[Drew Saunders]

I remember on r.b.tech Jobst said he ran a 47-50 half step up front with a modified "ultra 6" 13-24 freewheel in the back. He took a 12-24 7 speed and removed the 12 so that it would fit on a 126mm OLD hub that was more evenly dished, so that there was only space for a 5 speed or "Ultra 6" freewheel. Basically, a 120mm hub in 126mm of space, if that makes any sense. 

Later, he admitted he didn't really half step all that often, so he was going up those Alpine roads in a 50x24. My knees hurt just thinking about that.

I only met him briefly once, and I was trying to figure out why a bike with what appeared to be only one chainring had a front derailleur. He always rode yellow bikes to make it easier to find cracks in the frame. At 6'7" (2m) tall, he expected to break frames.

I'm sure he'd be using a "one by" today.

The only time I've seen Tom Ritchey around here is when he blew past me like I was standing still while we were both commuting home one evening. Dude is fast!

[Patrick Moore]

I expect Jobst would not choose carbon fiber, but I wonder if an intelligently designed -- ie, a good balance of light weight and strength -- carbon fiber frame would be less likely to crack under someone as big and powerful as he? Is this a use where carbon fiber would be better than steel?

If he was climbing mountains even in the 47 X 24 he must have climbed standing; tremendous force, I guess, on crank as well as frame.

Patrick "not a materials scientist at all" Moore, whose bike he just rode has a higher low gear than Jobst's (56") -- have to try it on some alps.

On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 1:46 PM Drew Saunders <drew.s...@gmail.com> wrote:

... He always rode yellow bikes to make it easier to find cracks in the frame. At 6'7" (2m) tall, he expected to break frames.

[lconley]

Given that you could just buy a stock 13-24 Ultra-6 freewheel before there were even such a thing as a 7 speed freewheel, that doesn't make a lot of sense. You can still get them on eBay. 

You might have to play with the axle spacers on a 126 mm hub to reduce the dish, but the actual hubs are the same (5, 6, 7 and 8). I do something similar - I run 135mm freewheel hubs with Ultra-7 freewheels, almost zero dish. Rivendell used to sell the Phi Wood Rivvy hubs in this configuration - I didn't manage to get a Rivvy back then, but two of my 135mm freewheel hubs are Phil Wood - one 40 hole and one 48 hole. I think that is the idea with the upcoming Rivendell 135 mm 7 speed cassette - less dish. Same idea with Mountain 11 speed cassettes fitting on 9 speed cassette hubs - less dish.

I have a 13 - 34 version of this that is awaiting the respaced, new bearings, 48 hole hub from Phil (was a 107mm - ???) for the Bombadil.

Laing

Delray Beach FL

[George Schick]

Considering the very large size frame shown in these various photos I'm surprised that he still insisted on using DT shifters - that'd be a long reach.  'Course, I suppose it didn't matter much since he didn't shift very often...

[Patrick Moore]

And he probably wore a 45" sleeve. 

[James Valiensi]

Hi,

I believe Jobst road bikes made by Peter Johnson of north California. Peter’s frames were the best made, ever. I met and road with Peter a few times, and seen his frames without paint, his craftsmanship was without peers.

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[Piaw Na]

When I first picked up my Co-Motion triplet (https://blog.piaw.net/2015/02/first-impression-co-motion-periscope.html), the shop employee raved and told me that he'd gotten Peter Johnson to fabricate the BB on the kid's position. At that time I didn't realize that this was one of the last pieces of work Peter Johnson would do before he passed away. Both my kids ended up using that piece to get on the bike far earlier than they would have otherwise, and now that piece is retired, but it's nice to know I have a piece of cycling history sitting in the garage.

[John Dewey]

I stand corrected, I knew that but can’t get over thinking otherwise for sone reason. So rare these days, riders without helmets. That, of course, is taboo discussion as well it should be. 

I suppose we all have favorite JB debunking, there are so many. My all-time fav is the old notion of not greasing BB spindle. He laid that to waste properly please & thank you. My tattered and greasy bike wheel book always close by. 

Jock

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[Jock Dewey]

RE: JB

Near as I can remember, I started lusting after bicycles at about age four...that was a long time ago now. A Dutch track bike dangled from a rafter in my Grandfather's garage. It was love at first sight. When I laid eyes on my first 10-speed in 1958—a Raleigh Bluestreak—my head (and heart) exploded. I've been chasing that one ever since.

My bikes are all steel, I built the oldest in 1998 and most recently one of Hiroshi's EBISU, built precisely for my 130 lb. frame. It's an artful, no nonsense rocketship. Fast as any carbon—but with its skinny tubes, lugs, and curvy fork—looks like it, too, was built in 1958. I also was employed by Richard Schwinn in Waterford, WI—therefore surrounded by the metal works of many legends, including Richard himself. Those guys all know a thing or two.

On our long rides together, my pals and I carried on endlessly about JB the engineer or rather, his many opinions  / obsessions / observations. We all agreed with most every JB declaration. We whiled away the hours, mile after mile, jabbering until our vocal chords gave out. I didn't have the math skills to make it as an engineer, but I've got the heart for it. My grandfather was a brilliant aircraft designer...I just wasn't there when the math genes were passed out. 

But I am handy, I love tools, and I've always maintained and built my own bicycles (frames notwithstanding). In fact, the only mechanic I ever trusted was Colin O'Brien, proprietor of Cronometro in Madison Wisconsin and as I recall I may have let him work on one of my bikes one time long ago. 

Someone wondered how he'd fit in today, good question. I have a riding pal in Athens, GA with a beautiful collection of steel bikes—including works by Richard Sachs, Peter Weigle, Pegoretti, Masi, and others in that club. But he also rides modern carbon bikes and will argue energetically with anyone who looks down on today's machines. He loves his 'plastic' (as referenced by Richard S.) 26-speed and the science behind it.

So back to JB. I'd be inclined to say that he'd look down upon carbon bikes (with 8 oz. carbon wheels) and the way we ride them. Meaning lots of gears, high cadence, wider tires, plastic seatposts 2 feet long, skinsuits, bike positioning, white socks reaching up to the knees, and those damn white shoes  etc. etc.

But maybe, with his obvious intelligence and brilliant engineering chops, he'd totally embrace the technology. 

The more I think about it, I'm betting he would. Afterall, consider all the carbon in a Porsche 963. Take away all that plastic, not much left but the tires.

BEST / Jock Dewey

[Bikie#4646]

Eric,

Great sleuthing to find that 2008 blog post by Brandt. Wonderful stuff. I'm not used to seeing him with grey hair like that. 

By the way, am I crazy? Is that his chain hanging loosely between the FD and the RD? I guess if I had just ridden up all those switchbacks I might have finished by shifting into the wrong gears too. (Though he does not look winded like I would be, ha.)

Paul Germain

Midlothian, Va.

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 12:21:11 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com wrote:

Interesting discussion topic, Andrew. I picture Jobst today on a bike very similar to what he ran most of his life. Steel frame, no racks, rim brakes. Maybe a frame that would accommodate wider tires. 

Here's a picture of Jobst from his last Alpine tour in 2008 (read more here). 

I'm not sure what make of frames he was riding in this era. But after 50 years of touring thousands of miles every summer in Italy, Switzerland and France (in addition to the long rides in California) I can't see him switching up and running racks or a rando build. He was famously ornery and I think he had his system right where he wanted it. He'd tour with a Carradice and stayed in hotels along the way (many with friends and families he'd met in the 1950s). 

As for frame material, this is of course a guess, but I'd wager he'd stick with steel. He rode well into the carbon era. As Tom shared in the Radavist article today Brandt would get a new frame every few years, worried about damage or fractures. He chose yellow paint for his bikes because he thought it was the best for highlighting damage. I could see his familiarity with steel keeping him on steel frames. And I could see the possibility of catastrophic failure keeping him from carbon. 

Regarding helmets, I don't think Brandt ever wore one. He probably shared an explanation for this back on rec.bicycles.tech but that's way before my time. 

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 11:55:43 AM UTC-5 George Schick wrote:

True.  I remember those days.  The most you see in one or two of those photos are riders wearing "leather hair nets," except for one who looks like he has a mountaineering helmet.  Another thing I notice is much shorter cycling shorts, probably all wool with a natural chamois crotch.

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 10:31:48 AM UTC-6 Steven Sweedler wrote:

Those pictures were taken before helmets were commonly available. During Bikecentennial helmets were rare. Steve

On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 4:20 PM lconley <lco...@brph.com> wrote:

One thing I notice in those photos is that no one was wearing a helmet.

Laing

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 10:49:25 AM UTC-5 andyree...@gmail.com wrote:

I'm in the process of building a JB-inspired road bike but with a nod to current bicycle trends: mainly wider tires and spinnier gearing. As a result, it's made me wonder what he would be riding today if you spliced his timeline and moved his prime days to current day.

Today's Radavist article really fueled that question so I'd like to open it up to this group who likely have much more insight into the man and his bike(s). 

What are we thinking? Rim brakes or disc? Carbon? Steel? Ti? I see a lot of similarities between him and Jan Heine as far as a desire for performance and reliability, so perhaps he'd lean towards a rando build?  

Take it away if you wish, 
Andrew

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Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

[Kim Hetzel]

George,

I, too, remember well those days. I use to own one of those "leather hair nets". Then I graduated to a first issue Bell helmet. I wore and short wool cycling shorts with a natural chamois insert.  Still love my wool jerseys, arm and leg warmers, especially here in the Pacific Northwest.

Kim Hetzel

Yelm, WA

[Kim Hetzel]

Eric,

Try visiting Kucharick Bicycle Clothing. Going out of business sale !

https://www.kucharik.com/

I have bought some solid colored wool jerseys late last year from John Kucharick. They are luxurious merino wool !

Kim Hetzel

Yelm, WA.

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 9:25:55 AM UTC-8 eric...@gmail.com wrote:

George — I do wish that there was more simple wool out there in nice solid colors and I think generally shorts are too long! 

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 12:21:11 PM UTC-5 Eric Marth wrote:

Interesting discussion topic, Andrew. I picture Jobst today on a bike very similar to what he ran most of his life. Steel frame, no racks, rim brakes. Maybe a frame that would accommodate wider tires. 

Here's a picture of Jobst from his last Alpine tour in 2008 (read more here). 

I'm not sure what make of frames he was riding in this era. But after 50 years of touring thousands of miles every summer in Italy, Switzerland and France (in addition to the long rides in California) I can't see him switching up and running racks or a rando build. He was famously ornery and I think he had his system right where he wanted it. He'd tour with a Carradice and stayed in hotels along the way (many with friends and families he'd met in the 1950s). 

As for frame material, this is of course a guess, but I'd wager he'd stick with steel. He rode well into the carbon era. As Tom shared in the Radavist article today Brandt would get a new frame every few years, worried about damage or fractures. He chose yellow paint for his bikes because he thought it was the best for highlighting damage. I could see his familiarity with steel keeping him on steel frames. And I could see the possibility of catastrophic failure keeping him from carbon. 

Regarding helmets, I don't think Brandt ever wore one. He probably shared an explanation for this back on rec.bicycles.tech but that's way before my time. 

[Piaw Na]

Paul: that picture is from the top of Stelvio pass. While it is long (48 switchbacks) and about 6000' of climbing, it's actually a steady 7-10% grade, and nowhere as fearsome as some of the steepies here in the Bay Area. I did drag my 10 year old and 7 year old over the top of that pass last summer, and we did it over 3 days (the ebike didn't have enough battery to do it in one day while carrying luggage anyway). It felt like a lot of work, but having ridden it on my single it's an easy day ride for most bay area cyclists. The steepest thing Jobst regularly did in Europe was the Gavia, which was indeed a fearsome 16% grade on the south side on a one lane dirt road. I'm too terrified to descend it on the tandem or triplet, but have done it a few times on a single. One thing to keep in mind is that on these Italian passes there are hotels all the way up and down the mountains with plenty of places to stay so you never have to do the whole thing in one day if you don't want to. And my (then 6-year old) son taught me in 2018 that that hotel on the 22nd hairpin on the Stelvio that I always either rode past or only stayed in bad weather had the most gorgeous hiking trails behind the hotel that made it worth a visit even in good weather, so now we don't do the Stelvio without stopping there.

[Eric Marth]

Thanks, Kim, but while the website is still up I thought John Kucharik closed up shop and liquidated their inventory sometime in 2021 or 2022. 

[lconley]

My 1st helmet was a yellow Skid Lid to match my Yellow Paramount.

Laing

[Richard Rose]

I have little to add to this discussion, except this; he was an engineer, correct? So whatever he would be riding & his reasoning would definitely be interesting.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 31, 2023, at 8:40 PM, Mackenzy Albright <mackenzy...@gmail.com> wrote:

Haha! Touché Eric. I feel like Brandt falls into the heros of the retrogrouch. Grant, Sheldon Brown, Rando Jan (not to be confused with Business Jan)

Id love to hear a considerate counterpoint from somebody that says he'd be on a 54mm tire carbon open...

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 4:59:44 PM UTC-8 Eric Daume wrote:

The Riv list imagining Jobst riding a steel frame with rim brakes? Shocking!

Eric

On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 7:37 PM Philip Williamson <philip.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think he'd ride a very similar bike today to the ones he rode for 50 years. 

• Steel. He wasn't swayed by aluminum, titanium, or carbon, the first time around, so nu-Jobst wouldn't choose them either. Steel is still tough, reliable, and cheap. 
• Fillet brazed? I imagine this was for aesthetics, but I'd need to dive into The Jobst Hole to find out. 
• Rim brakes, not discs. Single pivot sidepulls (??) indicate no worries about stopping with a simple, light, rim brake. 
• Supple tires, but still narrow. I would love to see Jobst and Jan debate the testing protocol.
• Downtube shifters. Simple, light, easy cabling, and there for the two times a day he'd shift. 
• Yellow. 

Philip 

rec.bicycles.tech

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 1:59:48 PM UTC-8 andyree...@gmail.com wrote:

Laing, I think you made a lot of solid arguments. Custom steel still feels like the way he'd go, and probably not so dissimilar to his no-frills road bikes of yore. I'm certainly grateful for his impact on the bicycle, riders, and builders of today, and for the journalists keeping his name alive!

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 3:16:07 PM UTC-6 lconley wrote:

If he were still around, I think he would probably still have the same setup as the 2008 photo, steel, rim brakes, clipless pedals. 

But that is not the question that seems to have been posed. As I understand the question, it is if his prime days were now, what would he be riding - basically not a silent generation member, but a later millennial or early gen-Xer, but still a mechanical engineer, still concerned with reliability, and dare I say it, under-biking. So maybe he still ends up on a metal, rimmed braked bike. I think it may be easier to eliminate some things, I don't see him with electronic shifting, that just adds more possible unrepairable-on-the-road failure points. I want to say no disc either - as it adds stress to the fork and reduces the reliability of the front end of the bike. I kind of envision him on a stripped down 80th anniversary Rene-Herse or Rivendell Rodeo, or possibly some sort of titanium frame.

I am a mechanical engineer also, but a boomer.

Laing

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 1:42:06 PM UTC-5 andyree...@gmail.com wrote:

I think I'd agree that Jobst would remain an advocate for the rim brake...PROBABLY. But just to play devil's advocate, if Jobst was in his prime today, he wouldn't have been brought up with the old-school tech that we're familiar with him using, but I suppose being a bit of a retrogrouch could still be in his cards. To me, it would depend heavily on his opinion towards modern wheel design and if the 11 (or 12) speed hub would be a yay or nay. As I'm typing this, I'm reminded of Ritchey's comment on his use of his shifters, or lack-there-of, so I'm leaning towards him reverting to shorter free-hub bodies. Hell, maybe he'd have beat Rivendell to the modern-day 7 speed rear hub! Or perhaps, the Rene Herse rear mech would tickle his fancy. Tough call. He'd certainly ride whatever it is to the ground though. 

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 11:51:37 AM UTC-6 Jeffrey Arita wrote:

Andrew,

Thank you for sharing.  The article was definitely worth the read.  A few things stood out to me:

- they were/are all extremely fit.

- fear was not a word in their vocabulary.

- what camaraderie (and competition) at the same time.

- the Higgins' couple rock.  Of course the stoker is doing all the work ;)

Jeff

Claremont, CA

(who's beloved stoker [Lori] continues to do all the work)

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023 at 7:49:25 AM UTC-8 andyree...@gmail.com wrote:

I'm in the process of building a JB-inspired road bike but with a nod to current bicycle trends: mainly wider tires and spinnier gearing. As a result, it's made me wonder what he would be riding today if you spliced his timeline and moved his prime days to current day.

Today's Radavist article really fueled that question so I'd like to open it up to this group who likely have much more insight into the man and his bike(s). 

What are we thinking? Rim brakes or disc? Carbon? Steel? Ti? I see a lot of similarities between him and Jan Heine as far as a desire for performance and reliability, so perhaps he'd lean towards a rando build?  

Take it away if you wish, 
Andrew

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[Steven Sweedler]

I also had a Skid Lid in their largest size, as the sizes git smaller they had more padding, same size shell for all. When they didn’t pass one iof the safety tests my local shop gave us discounts on Bell V1 Pros if we turned in the Skid Lid. This was late ‘70’s.  Steve

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[George Schick]

Ditto on the Skid Lid.  Never used it much, though, before the industry started to make some half way decent helmets - the ones with the thin plastic shell, lots of dense foam padding, and plenty of vents. Then again, I've been off and on when it comes to helmets over the past 50+ years of cycling (currently "off"). 

[Kim Hetzel]

Eric,

John Kucharick mentioned in an email to me that he's considering shutting down his website at the end of March.

Kim Hetzel

Yelm, WA.

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[Patrick Moore]

I am still or was until last week or so still getting "closeout sale" emails from Kucharik; maybe they've finally shut down, but there were open until very recently.

Harth Huffman, on the Boblist, owns Wabi Woolens who make excellent jerseys; better than Kucharik's IMO.

[Patrick Moore]

He was prolific on the old rec.bicycles.tec site and had very engineering-based opinions on just about every bike subject, which he expressed loudly and often and agressively. Whoever maintains the Sheldon Brown/Harris Cyclery website put together a Jobst page, very interesting: https://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/

[John Dewey]

I check regularly and all size S are gone nearly everywhere. Will miss these guys, they've been part of our consciousness for so many years. Great wool stuff at always reasonable prices. Good folks for sure.

BEST / Jock Dewey

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[Jock Dewey]

In case any of you are new to Kurcharik, if there are woolies your size snatch 'em up.

I bought my first Kurcharik jersey in 2003 and twenty years later I'm still wearing it in daily rotation. No visible wear save for some sunshine fading on the backside. Otherwise looks brand new. Best deal ever!

[Mackenzy Albright]

I really like the way the Skid Lid helmet looks! A bit reminiscent of the leather helmets. I wish that helmet design was a bit more diverse aesthetically. It's a bit lackluster the only major innovation in helmet tech has been the MIPS system. 

[Peter Adler]

Not yet. I've gotten at least three email notifications this year that closure was imminent (buy up now while you can).

A note: On several occasions in the past year, John has posted sales with 10%/15%/20% off all remaining items. The alleged discount does not appear online, but is supposed to be applied in the shopping basket at checkout. I've jumped in for two of these sales, and no general discount was applied to my shopping basket, using Safari 14/macOS. I don't know what browser his shopping mechanism is keyed to; I'm guessing it's Google Chrome. I don't know whether the discounted prices work with any browser at all.

I could have phoned him and complained about it, but it felt petty. I like the stuff I bought, but it still sticks in my craw that I paid more than I was promised. If I order any of the scraps, I think I'm just going to phone the order in.

Peter "aggressive shopping is a contact sport" Adler

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Jeff B]

As an aside to what modern bike Jobst might ride, here are some photos of Jobst's bike at the US Bicycling Hall of Fame in Davis, CA. I'm not sure if this was his final or second to last bike. I don't know if it is still there and having it hanging from the ceiling makes it hard to photograph and inspect but still very cool to see in person.

Jobst's Bike

Jeff Burke

Woodland, CA

[John Dewey]

Jeff, thanks for the nice photographs of the yellow bike. Beautiful machine, just about perfect, and not a spot of beausage. All you need and nothing more.

JD

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[Jeremy Till]

Wow, I work on the UC Davis campus and pass by the USBHOF regularly but had no idea that they had acquired Jobst's bike. I'll have to go pay homage one of these days.  

-Jeremy Till

Sacramento, CA

[RichS]

Dear Jeff,

Many thanks for posting such a comprehensive album of Jobst's gorgeous yellow bike. Anyone on this list has an affinity for lugs; but fillet brazing can look mighty nice as evidenced by Peter Johnson's fine work. I dig the "engineering" to shift the Carradice bag away from the saddle.

You're fortunate to live near a resource like the Bicycling Hall of Fame. Thanks again!

Best,

Rich in ATL