inclusive language suggestion from "Between Controls" RUSA e-news

[Greg Merritt]

Howdy everyone!

Folks likely received today's "Between Controls: RUSA e-news & updates" electronic mail. Included in that message was the following:

RANDONNEUR VERSUS RANDONNEUSE NOMENCLATURE

Did you know that female randonneurs are called randonneuses? We have so many different names and nominclature in randonneuring and wanted to share this for those who may not be aware. Maybe take the opportunity to include this distinction in your communication as we strive to bring more women (and those who identify as women) into our "Big Tent" of randonneuring.

Historically in French (as the above addresses), masculine word forms have been used solo in situations that are "unspecific" or "neutral" or "female+male inclusive," while feminine word forms have been used in writing meant to indicate "female only." (English has this property, too, but it is a bit different in each language.)

In contemporary written French, there are some conventions (not quite agreed-upon standards!) for shorthand expression of both female+male binary in gendered words. In the case of hikers or cyclists (people who do the verb "randonner"), you may see written examples like the following:

• randonneu.r.se (singular, one person)
• randonneu.r.se.s (plural, two or more people)

Other conventions may vary the "internal punctuation marks" and/or the placement and/or the order of the masculine and feminine grammatical elements; variations could include expressions like these:

• randonneu•se•r•s

• randonneu-r-se-s

• randonneuse.r
  

You may also see (parentheses) and /slashes/ to separate the grammatical elements, but these may not be understood to express female+male binary equally. Examples (or counterexamples, so to speak -- probably just avoid these constructions!) include:

• randonneu(se)rs  <-- avoid this construction

• randonneu(se/r)s  <-- avoid this construction

I will also note that "randonneuse" has at least one additional meaning, separate from a person (a randonneuse is the type of une machine or une bicyclette ridden by a randonneu.se.r!), and "randonneur" has at least one additional meaning that similarly does not indicate a person (that event that starts & ends in Rambouillet next year is called Paris-Brest-Paris Randonneur). While context usually delivers the clarity of use, using the internally-punctuated versions when writing about distance cyclists in general, or in the aggregate, will be clear.

To share a real-world example of this internal-punctuation writing, this is a screenshot of a Web page that includes such female+male binary-combined writing:

If you would like to read about French language gender inclusivity more broadly, including written & oral, other parts of speech, and language not confined to female+male binary, this PDF has lots of information:

https://divergenres.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/guide-grammaireinclusive-final.pdf

I think that I have all of the above about right, but I am just a learner, so if anyone has complementary and/or corrective information, please do share.

A+, les randonneu.se.r.s!

-Greg

[Lparker_0254]

While I realize that much of Rando-language is french, I wonder if we American English users need to worry about this amongst ourselves in this country? Actress, waitress, etc. are falling into disuse, disfavor.  I am not advocating either way. I like the simplification, but sometimes it is simpler to know a gender. (SNL Pat?)

And I think it can be silly to try to follow another languages patterns while speaking English and mispronouncing words anyway, like trying to say derailleur vs derailer (or the Brits "mech."), or "pannier" which seems to actually be an English word?

And others. Language is a funny, moving target.

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S® 6, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone#

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[Greg Merritt]

I like the simplification, but sometimes it is simpler to know a gender. (SNL Pat?)

Thankfully there is nothing simpler -- should circumstances ever arise where it is materially relevant -- to respectfully ask SNL Pat (or, in real life, a fellow Rando) how they are linguistically referenced.

When talking to someone, English has the very-handy "you" -- numberless, genderless, and all formalities included.

...and, by the way, the word "Rando" is very nice, and fits a very, very French linguistic pattern: resto (restaurant), vélo (vélocipède), dispo (disponible)...etc.....and rando (randonneu.se.r).

-Greg

[Bill Bryant]

One problem: If we adopt “Rando” to be the all-inclusive term, then we have the problem that most Americans will not know how to write it in the plural-- potato vs potatoes.

I’m not sure I’m down with “Randos-USA”

 

Bill Bryant

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[Greg Merritt]

Whoa — you’re considering changing the organization’s name?

That “-o” abbreviation convention is very informal, and I don’t think that many organizations would use it in their name.

-Greg

[Greg Merritt]

…and, if you are considering an organizational name change, something like “Randonneuring USA” might be simplest all around.

Now, the logo — *that* has been a controversial identity issue! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

-Greg

[Bill Gobie]

"Rando" is also taking on the colloquial meaning of a random, possibly sketchy person. Which may be somewhat apt.

Bill

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[Rob Hawks]

Or perhaps to the appearance achieved as we might be donning garments for colder and/or wetter days. We of course may be riding in the dark, but sometimes it looks like we got dressed in the dark too.

rob

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[R Davis]

I hope this organization does not fall into the bottomless pit of identity. I just want to ride my bike. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 16, 2022, at 10:43 AM, Bill Gobie <gobie...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Andrew Adere]

Thank you for your productive comment - best wishes with the bike riding.

Personally I think "Randonneur" is fine and no change needs to be made, especially not based on the French language.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/FB1E2468-C78D-4625-9145-9725FA5BCCA6%40gmail.com.

[Jonathan Howard]

My vote is to simply use the term "Randonneur" for everyone and if someone wants to use "Randonneuse" let them, but otherwise everyone is a "Randonneur". 

French is a gendered language, so with the trend to be gender neutral it gets complicated. I'm learning French because although I'll be unable to do PBP this time around (work conflict) I am planning on going to France to ride in another Brevet, and it's been really challenging for me, because English is naturally less gendered. I trip up like crazy in Duolingo. When English is gender specific it's often easy to switch to a more gender neutral option and when it's not the male term is adopted for all. I think that Randonneuring is an instance where that adoption can be made while preserving tradition and being gender neutral.

Thank you all!

Jonathan

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[Noel Howes]

In my online french dictionary Randonneur is an intransitive verb. Take off the s of Randonneurs USA and voila! Most verbs are sexless except some like manspreading. 

Noel Howes
(206)518-2132

   

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[Vincent Muoneke]

But the Rando's bicycle is not

Always Female

I appreciate the American way of simplification by abbreviation.

Sent from Vinny's iPhone

On Dec 16, 2022, at 10:15, Noel Howes <stuar...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Bill Bryant]

Yes, our “bike” is le velo in French and masculine, while the “bicycle” is la bicyclette in French and feminine.

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[Jonathan Howard]

Thank you Noel! I didn’t realize that Randonneur was a transitive verb, but if it is?!? Remove the “s” and we’re gender neutral and keeping tradition.

Jonathan 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 16, 2022, at 1:26 PM, Bill Bryant <bi...@bryant-springsteen.net> wrote:



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[Greg Merritt]

The verb is randonner (not randonneur) and can be mapped to the English "to hike" or "to ride [a bike]" among other senses. Je randonne, tu randonnes, il/el/iel randonne....

The traditional non-specific or catch-all gendering in French is to use the masculine to the exclusion of the feminine. Modern French usage, when being binary-inclusive, uses some of the grammar I quoted to do do so.

(Jonathan, the "s" added to the end of French nouns is generally to make them plural.)

-Greg

[Greg Merritt]

Le ven. 16 déc. 2022 à 13:44, Greg Merritt <greg.m...@gmail.com> a écrit :

Je randonne, tu randonnes, il/el/iel randonne....

I have been studying another romance language! For French, I should have written… il/elle/iel.

-Greg 

[Dawn Piech]

Thank you Greg for sharing these resources and for starting this discussion.  

Regarding the reference to nomenclature for Randonneuse, in retrospect, a more appropriate and more inclusive statement could have been "women/trans/femme riders" than "women (and those who identify as women").  I can now appreciate now how the later excludes individuals.  This was not the intent at all.  

As Greg has also eluded to, I am a learner as well.  If anyone has complementary information, please do share with me in this group or reach out to me privately.  

Respectfully,

Dawn Piech 

[Jonathan Howard]

Greg,

That’s good to know. This is the first time I have actually tried learning another language. It’s a lot of fun, but challenging. 😊

Jonathan 

On Dec 16, 2022, at 2:44 PM, Greg Merritt <greg.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

The verb is randonner (not randonneur) and can be mapped to the English "to hike" or "to ride [a bike]" among other senses. Je randonne, tu randonnes, il/el/iel randonne....

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/28709b50-74a2-47ee-bd62-8571c00d0ddan%40googlegroups.com.

[Hamid Akbarian]

Not to minimize the topic in discussion here but more than 3 months ago, somewhere in the world, a 22 y/o woman AKA a human was killed, just because not covering her hair in accordance with the government standard.

So, I would rather to invest my time, energy & resources for cyclist safety and cyclist rights on the roads and bring awareness to our towns & communities about us than worrying about what pronounce I have to use when I call people or fellow cyclist. We should simply love & respect each other. How hard is this?

When Metin Uz died in the car accident, no one was thinking what identity he had, we mourned for a lost of human life.

We are living in one of the best countries in the world so we should start appreciating what we have and not taking it for granted.

 

My 2 cents,

Hamid Akbarian

NVR & NEFR RBA

[Dick Combs]

Thank You Hamid

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 18, 2022, at 9:29 AM, Hamid Akbarian <in...@cyclingforever.com> wrote:



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[Greg Merritt]

Dear Hamid, and fellow Randos,

There are lots of ways to love & respect each other. They tend to be simple, rather than worrisome.

I rode a short time of my 2019 PBP, in the wee hours of Wednesday night / Thursday morning, with an Austrian rider who spoke English quite well. He was proud of his back-home club's ACP randonnées and encouraged me to come participate. He was especially proud of the fabulous support from their volunteers.

Guess who volunteers for his club's events?

"The wives." "The wives" are the volunteers.

When I asked him about women participating in the events as cyclists, he "explained" that while he was not sexist, it was just simply true that women were not well-suited to operating a bicycle (or an automobile, for that matter). When I suggested that there are enormous numbers of examples that show that to be blatantly false, he attributed these women's skills to statistical outliers. I shifted to a harder gear and left him behind, without an au revoir.

I've never seen that Austrian club's communications, but I would expect that they would not be the first among clubs to include Randonneuse in communications; I mean, is randonneuring even for women? Right? Right? (Wrong. Love & respect, and invite, anyone & everyone to participate.)

Hamid, when someone's pronouns cause you worry, what is the source of your discomfort? Is it discomfort that the other person exists? Is that akin to "discomfort" and "worry" that some may claim they experience by seeing an uncovered human head? When I read your email, I understand you to be saying "people different from me -- or the norm -- make me uncomfortable." Such a notion is a cornerstone of "othering" and exclusion.

In my local randonneuring club, among riders and our nuclear families / chosen families / households, there are many individuals who would experience misgendering as rude, hurtful, and threatening to their existence. I might suggest letting go of your worry, and, rather, to love & respect each other, regardless of headgear OR pronouns.

Hamid, and everyone, regarding my dear late friend Metin, please refer to his killing as a result of a collision, not an "accident." This important, simple language choice is important to show love & respect of cyclists as humans.

-Greg

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[Rob Hawks]

Hamid,

My friend Metin would talk endlessly about bikes, bike rides and nearly everything that would touch upon bikes. At the same time he was well known to be a private person regarding his life off the bike.Given that, I think it is unlikely in the extreme that he would have shared his views to the point where his name (and the fact of his passing) could be so freely used in what can be seen as an attempt to win points in a discussion. Please consider that by doing so you just might be causing some measure of pain to his friends and family who at this time of year, when many people traditionally make a bigger effort to gather together with friends and family, are now also being reminded again of his absence. Without you knowing for sure, please also consider that you might be completely off base in using his name this way in this particular discussion.

rob hawks

On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 6:29 AM Hamid Akbarian <in...@cyclingforever.com> wrote:

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[Dave Thompson]

With all due respect to everyone, it’s time to close this thread. 

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