A fellow Randonneur, Andrew Adere, RUSA #13914, started a sports nutrition company, “Geluminati", they are currently selling a powdered endurance drink mix, of carbs and electrolytes. It's working great for the long riding we do. It nets 240 kcal / 60g carbs per bottle, along with 420mg sodium, and some potassium and magnesium.
The real delight, is how light it is - both in taste and on your tummy. I’ve used this product for months and on many long Hot rides this year, with zero issues. When I’m pushing on the bike, solid food is annoying to get down, this drink mix goes down easy and works well for a more constant flow of calories and electrolytes, than what I can get with solid food and pills.
One thing that sets this mix above simple surgery mixes, is the use of a new type of complex carb, highly branched cyclic dextrin (HBCD), as its main ingredient. This carb is formed of incredibly long chains of glucose, it's property allows it to clear the stomach quickly and then break down slowly in the intestine. It eliminates the gut distress, that I get with Maltodextrin. Even with all the energy and electrolytes, the HBCD allows the mix to be hypo-tonic, which means the drink is still going to be hydrating even with 60gms of carbs, per bottle.
On top of using this new type of carb for its useful properties, the mix also uses the 1:0.8 glucose:fructose ratio that research has shown to be most effective in reducing gut distress and increasing carbohydrate processing (how many calories you can digest in an hour). I’m a fan of a combination of High Glycemic simple sugars and complex carbs.
If you are not thrilled with your current drink mix, I'd recommend giving this a shot. Shipping can give a bit of sticker shock but it doesn't go up much if you buy multiple bags at once, and if you buy 10 the 10th is free. After testing with the first bag, I bought 10 at a time for the economy. Maybe get a few buddies to go in on the first try?
The website is www.geluminati.com and you can email Andrew at in...@geluminati.com with questions, he’s been super helpful to me. If you decide to give Andrew’s product a try, please email him and let him know you are a Randonneur, it’s our hope that we can get him as an advertiser in the American Randonneur Magizine ;=)
DanD
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We are all different animals…. But for me, I’ve found a drink mix that worked right out of the bag for long brutal rides, I did 7 Super Sixes last year using Geluminati for most all of those miles.Planning Super Sixes, I balance the weight of carrying powder in baggies, up the hills, against the benefit of easily digestible calories, it’s a win for me.I do not drink plain water, I prefer calories and electrolytes in my fluid.I too, am a bit of a chemist when it comes to adding caffeine, fat and protein to the baggies of Geluminati, as needed, but not enough of a chemist to try to buy all the raw powders and blend it up myself.When I factor in the cost of flights, hotels and taxies, to do a remote Super Six, the cost of the all important human fuel is insignificant, in comparison.My hats off to those that can stomach Malto Dextrin, I just can’t, I know it’s cheap, and more of just a simple sugar, but the side effects are not worth the savings, for me, and that is why I’ve not been able to stomach Spiz.I like the combination of fast and slow burning carbs, the taste and the results that I’ve had from Geluminati.Just today filled 40 snack bags in anticipation of a fun 1,200km in Florida, in a little over a week from now.On top of all of that Geluminati has just signed on as a RUSA Advertiser helping to fund the American Randonneur Magizine.You can use discount code RUSA5 for $5.00 off your order, and it will let them know that you are a Rando customer.Order 2 or more bags and you will get free shipping.Andrew (part owner) is a Randonneur.Geluminati.comHappy Trails,DanDOn Mar 7, 2023, at 7:14 AM, ed bernasky <edber...@gmail.com> wrote:I've used highly branched cyclic dextrin in my home brew powder for years and it is easier to mix than maltodextrin and I can tolerate more calories per hour with it. Although I have not tried this particular brew, the base sugar in it is a keeper in my experience and worth a try. There are not too many commercial products on the market with highly branched cyclic dextrin as the primary sugar. In the past there were none. Highly branched cyclic dextrin is rather expensive compared to maltodextrin but just the improved solubility is worth it to me. I always get clumping with malto and with highly branched cyclic dextrin, it is easier to get into solution at the gas station cafe.
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+1 for me. Just water on my bottles.
I stopped using sport drinks 18 months ago. No measurable difference in PR on Strava, but huge impact on the logistics – nothing extra to carry except salt pills when it is really hot. And, even these, I just eat more salted food when it’s hot.
Thanks, Raphaël
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On Mar 9, 2023, at 9:56 AM, Greg Merritt <greg.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
I kind of end up just putting water in my bottles, because it's hard to get the 🥐🍌🍇🌯🍰🍩🥜🍫🥮🍟🧀🥖 nutrition to fit in the bottles.😊-Greg, who, for the record, has also gone many a consecutive km on perpetuem... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Sitting around eating with fellow randos is a highlight of the sport.
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Cheers Andrew,I like different opinions, it's how we learn in life if we are open to listening. For the record , I never mentioned Hammer Nutrition in any of my responses but rather personal experience , research data and doctors statements. I did not write any of this to sway people's opinion towards Hammer Nutrition, we are all adults and can make that choice. Also out of respect for you and the drink you have that was now featured in RUSA magazine. Big props for creating this business.I have been an ambassador for Gu Energy, Scratch and Hammer. I have tried about a dozen other brands and this was the best way to figure out what worked for me.There are many studies out there and some brands sponsor their own research to promote their product, it's how business works. But there are drinks with barely any added sugars and plenty of carbs and calories to keep you moving forward.There is no one rule for all, new research is constantly being produced. You made a good point about Mathieu van der Poel. I think it's far from comparing pro nutrition to rando nutrition / hydration. I recently raced 250 miles in 12h, say I do the same time for a 300 km rando event. The demands for fueling are completely different between the two in the same 12h period.
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--Georgi Stoychev
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Interestingly this just came through my email client. Interesting
video, though I completely disagree with what he implies about
carbs.
>Dr. Berg, age 57, is a chiropractor who specializes in Healthy
Ketosis & Intermittent Fasting
I honestly wouldn't trust anything this guy says about nutrition
for exercise based on his background. He says "apparently the idea
is that if you're exercising you need some sugar to replace to
loss of glucose... and they call this hydration. But is it really
hydrating you? Does consuming glucose hydrate you?"
Yeah this guy's strawmanning. Or he just doesn't understand how
the body works in this manner.
No one in their right mind would ever claim the carbs are
hydrating. They're there for energy (a type of which this guy's
career is built on agitating against with his Keto background) -
the water and electrolytes are what enable hydration. Yes carbs
"dehydrate you" by requiring water to process. That's how we get
to the important factor of osmolarity. It's also why smashing some
plain water at a control is a good idea if you're feeling a little
dry.
Hydration versus dehydration is going to be based on osmolarity.
High carbohydrate drinks are going to be hypertonic and thus
dehydrating - they have more particles than your blood and take
more water than you're taking in with the drink to process the
associated carbohydrates. Hypotonic drinks (like guess what?) are
going to have fewer particles than your blood and thus allow some
of the water you're taking on to go towards hydration as well.
Some research points to isotonic drinks being best for energy
processing but I've thrown my eggs into the hypotonic basket for
now based on my research and understanding of the exercising human
body.
Speaking generally on hydration, though, this guy is correct in
that it's not just about pounding back tons of water and you need
to be wary of hyponatremia. A great resource for learning about
the current state of hydration, among other things, is Alex
Hutchinson's book Endure. Highly recommend for all endurance
athletes. If I recall correctly, we currently don't know the best
way to hydrate, but I think the latest recommendation is basically
to drink more or less to thirst, maybe with some extra if it's hot
and such (drink before you're thirsty and eat before you're hungry
is always good advice - but of course don't go overboard). It is
surprisingly the kind of thing that's been heavily and widely
studied and we as a people still aren't sure.
Oh man, the way he says "11 grams of sugar per serving size" is
hilarious. As though that's an unreasonable amount of carbohydrate
- if you only consumed 11g/hr (which isn't exactly what he's
talking about but still) you'd bonk after ~2.5hrs guaranteed -
your glycogen stores will last ~2hrs and you've barely replenished
them.
I don't think anything this guy says has any reasonable bearing
on fueling for any endurance exercise, especially the kind of
riding we do where consuming more carbs is even more important as
you're fighting a war of attrition trying to keep your glucose
stores above empty in a situation where you cannot replace those
stores as quickly as you're depleting them. He is correct that you
need electrolytes, which hopefully we all know - sodium is most
important or at least the one we need most of, with potassium a
close second, as the sodium-potassium pump is part of the process
of creating ATP which is what our cells use for energy. I would be
lying if I said I had a good working knowledge of things at this
level of biochemistry, though.
Most sports drinks at gas stations are hot garbage,
though I will say I find Body Armor to be absolutely primo stuff.
Love to smash one of those at a service stop.
Basically, added sugar isn't the devil. It's just the latest in
diet culture's fads (remember how fat was evil in the 90s?). We as
endurance athletes need carbohydrates, and sugar is a
great carb source, and good luck meeting your hourly carbohydrate
needs without added sugars and without gut distress. The main
thing is not overeating these which is something to worry about
off the bike (hopefully after you consume plenty of them to
replenish your glycogen stores).
I feel like I'm missing something with talking about how blood
sugar spikes aren't even a concern during exercise since our body
uses non-insulin glucose uptake, but I'm also not super well
versed in that and this is already long enough and it's past my
bedtime.
Sorry for another rambly slightly confrontational entry in this
saga, y'all. There's a lot of misinformation out there and people
approaching this issue from a lot of different perspectives which
don't always apply to what we do as ultra distance cyclists - or
just cyclists in general. Makes me think of something Namrita
Brooke, a registered dietician and cycling coach, said
(paraphrasing) - everyone thinks they're an expert on nutrition
because everyone eats all the time.
But that's simply not true. Our bodies are complicated organisms
and we've still got far from everything figured out. But the
sucrose in natural sources is the same as the sucrose (table
sugar) in your pantry. and neither is evil, especially while
pedaling a bike.
Andrew
Postscript: This also makes me think of how dietary sodium
recommendations have been completely wrong for decades. Check this
article out from LMNT, an electrolyte company I very much respect
since they also give guidance on how to make your own electrolyte
mix at home to match the product they sell.
https://science.drinklmnt.com/electrolytes/the-fdas-misguidance-on-sodium/
Homemade electrolyte mix info is the first FAQ here:
https://drinklmnt.com/pages/faq
If you've been on a low sodium diet like I was for a few years try
adding significant amounts of salt back in - I did (as added salt
on top of my normal diet, not by choosing saltier foods -
interesting how that's not demonized) and instantly felt worlds
better.
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Ted,
I'm not super knowledgeable about artificial sweeteners. I
definitely distrust products that use them in lieu of sugar but to
the same levels, but I don't know enough to speak to whether the
small quantity products like Nuun use is really detrimental.
For prepackaged electrolytes I think LMNT does it right. Very high
sodium so depending on how salty your sweat is and your sweat rate
maybe split one packet between two bottles. They've also got
their recipe in the FAQ section (https://drinklmnt.com/pages/faq),
first dropdown under Homebrew. I remember listening to a podcast
with the founder recently and he was the right way about things
and really seemed to approach the topic of electrolytes from a
solid foundation.
If you want to mix your own electrolyte powder, check out Micro
Ingredients on Amazon. I believe their stuff is of pretty good
quality.
Personally I get enough electrolytes from my drink mix and other
ride food, and if I really need it I'll snag a saltier snack at a
service stop.
Andrew
I don't think carbs have anything to do with hydration - they're
all about energy. Reasonable amounts of sugar while on the bike ==
as much as you can tolerate.
The links you provided are certainly valid while sedentary but
completely irrelevant while exercising as the body processes
carbohydrate differently during activity.
Finally, all carbs are really sugars. Longer chain carbs -
oligosaccharides and polysaccharides - are still saccharides, AKA
sugars. Someone decided to not call them sugars when they have
long enough chains but it's all the same building blocks.
The only "too much" sugar when on the bike is what gives you gut
distress, and that's both a factor of type of sugar and gut
training.
Simple sugars are important for quick energy on the bike - we
don't have the time or gut tolerance to break down super complex
carbs. This is different at rest but trying to "eat healthy" on
the bike is silly - we have more important needs and we're not
harming our bodies by addressing those needs.
Again there is zero difference between naturally occurring sugars
and those we separate out (from natural sources, by the way -
we're not creating them from dark magic).
I don't mean to belabor this issue but I think misinformation on
this point is both silly and potentially dangerous for people who
are out pushing their physical limits - bonking because you were
worried some diet culture guru said sugar is bad can leave you
stranded far from services without the fuel you need to get to the
next control.
Andrew
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-drinks/sugary-drinks/
https://www.moonfamilyhealth.com/fileupload/146_Reasons_Why_Sugar_Is_Ruining_Your_Health.pdf
Sure, I know simple sugars are in every drink and they play a vital role together with electrolytes. Electrolytes + healthy natural sweeteners can do the trick as far as hydration. There are naturally occuring sugars and that's fine. All I am saying is that too much is no bueno. Especially in Hydration drinks. This can be accomplished with a reasonable amount of sugar.
Your carbs for energy don't have to come from simple sugars in excessive amounts.
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Enjoying reading this thread and relating to my own experiences.My approach is to accept that I must consume things to get through these long events that I would never do while at rest. Even still, I have a (bad) habit of not consuming enough carbs/sugars on long brevets. During last weekend's 400k, I was on the verge of bonking multiple times- it was so cold I just didn't want to stop, take the gloves off to eat even a gel. I managed to finish, but it wasn't pretty...I've used Tailwind for the past year or so, and it's ok, but time to see what else is out there. I just bought two bags of Geluminati and will try it out.Howard ZabellRUSA #14760
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I feel like the conversation is getting sidetracked. I don’t think I can bring more value to this conversation, so this is my last post :)
I wanted to simply bring awareness of extra sugar and the consequences to our health. There are hydration drinks which range from 2 grams to 50 grams of sugar or even more. They are both designed to hydrate. Is extra sugar to help hydrate or is now fuel, that would make it a fuel drink and not a hydration i wonder.
Put aside the source of sugar, natural or not, if I was wrong on that, the health consequences and GI distress are real. Too much sugar without knowing your limits and absorption rate is a recipe for disaster. Again, I am questioning the amount of sugar. I do eat fruit and nut bars, figs, dates, rice cakes, bananas … etc for fuel that includes sugar. I eat them for fuel rather than to hydrate :)
I also think it is a low blow to be going after Hammer since I did not even mention it in the first place. I was also an ambassador for Skratch and did not mention them either. If anything, you ended up promoting them.
This is my opinion but I am open to be convinced otherwise without getting mad :)
Cheers Ramsey. I never promoted Hammer here at all. It was mentioned by Andrew. I was not even saying that his product is bad, in fact I gave him kudos. I was just sharing my experience in my first email response. Of course businesses do what they do to make money. That doesn't meant that their products are bad. As mentioned, I never claimed to be a nutritionist, I was just pulling research already completed by top Universities. The video was not without its flaws , I agree.In my first reply I actually talked about Protein, solid food, carb to protein ratio, overhydrating, eating too much, different fueling needed at different intensity. . . not one word was mentioned about the new drink in town or Hammer nutrition. I did not wanted to advertise for a company I am associated with here. And hey, we are not perfect or correct 100 % of the time, I am well aware. I was genuinely trying to share my opinion from experience in hope to help others or at least bring some awareness and start a discussion. At the end of the day, discussions like this are necessary and important and I am happy we can all participate in a respectful way. I don't take things personally and don't say anything to attack anybody personally, I do it out of the love for this sport.On Fri, Mar 31, 2023 at 11:37 AM Ramsey Hanna <rambora...@gmail.com> wrote:I think Andrew makes some great points about how what you should consume on the bike to maximize performance is dramatically different than what you should be eating to have a healthy diet in general (i.e. off the bike nutrition, nobody should be slamming gels when they sit down for dinner, regardless of whether or not they are "complex" or not). Additionally what you would consume on a slow brevet (i honestly don't even consume sports nutrition products at this pace) is different from what you would consume if you are smashing tempo or > for hours. Of course, everyone's physiology is different, but if your goal is to maximize performance what Andrew said is true: consume as many carbohydrates as you can stomach, this is literally what every racer is doing and if your goal is to finish brevets as quickly as possible, that's exactly what you should do as well (if that's not your goal, do whatever works for you).I am going to address some of the misconceptions I am seeing in this thread:Simple vs Complex carbohydrates: There is obviously some confusion about how these terms are used.Nutritionists make this distinction: "Simple" means the sugar is non-polymeric. "Complex" means the sugar is a polymer. From a chemistry and health perspective, this distinction is reductive, it has no bearing on how these food items are digested. Sometimes complex carbohydrates are rapidly digested/absorbed, sometimes they are not. The linkages between the sugar molecules are what determines whether or not something is rapidly absorbed (or even edible, cellulose is a sugar, but leaves off a tree don't provide calories) It's just an easy way to describe the types of chemicals found in the generic food groups so information can more easily relayed to the general public (i.e. complex carbs are found in starchy foods, simple carbs are found in sweet foods).Scientists do not make this distinction: If a chemical contains a specific chemical moeity, it is a type of sugar. full stop. There is more nuance when you describe their different structures but if you don't have the knowledge to understand their meaning, it's meaningless to present it in that way to non-scientists.Natural/organic vs Artificial/added sugars:There is no functional difference between chemicals that occur naturally and those that are manufactured. The fructose/sucrose/glucose in a banana is exactly the same as what is in your drink mix. Your body cannot tell the difference AT ALL.This isn't something that should really be controversial, but the amount of misinformation surrounding this idea of artificial/natural is absolutely astounding. The real reason a banana/potato is healthier for you than just straight candy is because of the additional fiber and the (literally) thousands of other chemicals naturally occuring in those items, not whether or not the carbohydrate you are consuming is artificial or not.I looked into the way Hammer nutrition advertises their products (sorry Georgi), and frankly, it's pretty dishonest and is capitalizing on alot of recent diet trends and misinformation. Here is the description from the website for their endurance gel:Unlike other similar-looking products on the market, Hammer Gel’s complex carbohydrates, all-natural ingredients, and pH-balancing formula are easily digestible, and provide quick-acting yet long-lasting energy in a convenient, tasty, concentrated form.The main ingredient in Hammer gel's products which provides energy is Maltodextrin. Maltodextrin is an intensely processed (it is as ARTIFICAL as it gets, but they are claiming their product is ALL NATURAL) polysaccharide derived from the hydrolysis of starchy products. The origin of Maltodextrin is corn/potatoes/wheat, but it's the same chemical regardless of its origin. Hammer has decided to use the marketing term "complex" to convince you that this Maltodextrin is somehow healthier for you than "simple sugars" such as fructose/glucose/sucrose, but this is just isn't true. Consuming maltodextrin while at rest will (more or less) have the same impact as consuming table sugar, in fact the glycemic index for Maltodextrin is even higher. All research on this chemical shows addition into a diet (for normal, non ultra endurance athletes) has the same impact as sugar (diabetes, weight gain, cardiovascular disease, etc.)). I just want to make it clear, there is nothing wrong with consuming maltodextrin, especially for endurance exercise, but claiming it is better for you than other carbohydrates is a lie.More from Hammer nutrition (taken from their ingredient list on their website):
Potassium Chloride – Source of potassium and sodium.-THERE IS NO SODIUM IN POTASSIUM CHLORIDE. This is probably a typo but damn, edit your website, Andrew is a single person and does a better job describing his product.Energy Smart® (Grape Juice, Rice Dextrin) – This all-natural, low-sugar sweetener plays an important role in Hammer Gel’s delicious flavor while contributing minimally to the overall carbohydrate content. Energy Smart® is certified non-GMO, gluten-free, and allergen-free.-Again, it is dishonest to call this chemical "all natural" just like maltodextrin, rice dextrin is produced by hydrolysis of starch and is intensely processed. Also, there is nothing wrong with GMOs, Hammer is again capitalizing on recent diet trends to get you to use their products (could go on about this subject literally forever, but I won't say more than that).There's more to unpack with Hammer (sorry again Georgi) but it's not the only company that makes false claims about their sports nutrition products, it just so happens to be the most relevant to this discussion.Given this information, I personally prefer Andrew's product over others because he is 100% honest about what he is selling you and it is very obvious that he has done his research. He is not trying to convince you that his product is "organic" or doesn't contain "added sugars" (it damn well better have added sugar). He is not capitalizing on recent diet trends to get you to buy his product. These reasons alone are enough of a reason to choose his product over others. I am not going to even touch whatever specific formula Andrew is choosing to use in his product as it's outside my understanding and I haven't done enough research to contribute to that discussion; but damn, it works exactly as advertised.Respect to all in this discussion. A big part of my job and what I have done for the past (10 years! wow, I am old af) is to present scientific information to a general audience AND a specialized audience so if any of the above information is unclear, please ask for clarification.Ramsey
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--Georgi Stoychev
I think Andrew makes some great points about how what you should consume on the bike to maximize performance is dramatically different than what you should be eating to have a healthy diet in general (i.e. off the bike nutrition, nobody should be slamming gels when they sit down for dinner, regardless of whether or not they are "complex" or not). Additionally what you would consume on a slow brevet (i honestly don't even consume sports nutrition products at this pace) is different from what you would consume if you are smashing tempo or > for hours. Of course, everyone's physiology is different, but if your goal is to maximize performance what Andrew said is true: consume as many carbohydrates as you can stomach, this is literally what every racer is doing and if your goal is to finish brevets as quickly as possible, that's exactly what you should do as well (if that's not your goal, do whatever works for you).I am going to address some of the misconceptions I am seeing in this thread:Simple vs Complex carbohydrates: There is obviously some confusion about how these terms are used.Nutritionists make this distinction: "Simple" means the sugar is non-polymeric. "Complex" means the sugar is a polymer. From a chemistry and health perspective, this distinction is reductive, it has no bearing on how these food items are digested. Sometimes complex carbohydrates are rapidly digested/absorbed, sometimes they are not. The linkages between the sugar molecules are what determines whether or not something is rapidly absorbed (or even edible, cellulose is a sugar, but leaves off a tree don't provide calories) It's just an easy way to describe the types of chemicals found in the generic food groups so information can more easily relayed to the general public (i.e. complex carbs are found in starchy foods, simple carbs are found in sweet foods).Scientists do not make this distinction: If a chemical contains a specific chemical moeity, it is a type of sugar. full stop. There is more nuance when you describe their different structures but if you don't have the knowledge to understand their meaning, it's meaningless to present it in that way to non-scientists.Natural/organic vs Artificial/added sugars:There is no functional difference between chemicals that occur naturally and those that are manufactured. The fructose/sucrose/glucose in a banana is exactly the same as what is in your drink mix. Your body cannot tell the difference AT ALL.This isn't something that should really be controversial, but the amount of misinformation surrounding this idea of artificial/natural is absolutely astounding. The real reason a banana/potato is healthier for you than just straight candy is because of the additional fiber and the (literally) thousands of other chemicals naturally occuring in those items, not whether or not the carbohydrate you are consuming is artificial or not.I looked into the way Hammer nutrition advertises their products (sorry Georgi), and frankly, it's pretty dishonest and is capitalizing on alot of recent diet trends and misinformation. Here is the description from the website for their endurance gel:Unlike other similar-looking products on the market, Hammer Gel’s complex carbohydrates, all-natural ingredients, and pH-balancing formula are easily digestible, and provide quick-acting yet long-lasting energy in a convenient, tasty, concentrated form.The main ingredient in Hammer gel's products which provides energy is Maltodextrin. Maltodextrin is an intensely processed (it is as ARTIFICAL as it gets, but they are claiming their product is ALL NATURAL) polysaccharide derived from the hydrolysis of starchy products. The origin of Maltodextrin is corn/potatoes/wheat, but it's the same chemical regardless of its origin. Hammer has decided to use the marketing term "complex" to convince you that this Maltodextrin is somehow healthier for you than "simple sugars" such as fructose/glucose/sucrose, but this is just isn't true. Consuming maltodextrin while at rest will (more or less) have the same impact as consuming table sugar, in fact the glycemic index for Maltodextrin is even higher. All research on this chemical shows addition into a diet (for normal, non ultra endurance athletes) has the same impact as sugar (diabetes, weight gain, cardiovascular disease, etc.)). I just want to make it clear, there is nothing wrong with consuming maltodextrin, especially for endurance exercise, but claiming it is better for you than other carbohydrates is a lie.More from Hammer nutrition (taken from their ingredient list on their website):
Potassium Chloride – Source of potassium and sodium.-THERE IS NO SODIUM IN POTASSIUM CHLORIDE. This is probably a typo but damn, edit your website, Andrew is a single person and does a better job describing his product.Energy Smart® (Grape Juice, Rice Dextrin) – This all-natural, low-sugar sweetener plays an important role in Hammer Gel’s delicious flavor while contributing minimally to the overall carbohydrate content. Energy Smart® is certified non-GMO, gluten-free, and allergen-free.-Again, it is dishonest to call this chemical "all natural" just like maltodextrin, rice dextrin is produced by hydrolysis of starch and is intensely processed. Also, there is nothing wrong with GMOs, Hammer is again capitalizing on recent diet trends to get you to use their products (could go on about this subject literally forever, but I won't say more than that).There's more to unpack with Hammer (sorry again Georgi) but it's not the only company that makes false claims about their sports nutrition products, it just so happens to be the most relevant to this discussion.Given this information, I personally prefer Andrew's product over others because he is 100% honest about what he is selling you and it is very obvious that he has done his research. He is not trying to convince you that his product is "organic" or doesn't contain "added sugars" (it damn well better have added sugar). He is not capitalizing on recent diet trends to get you to buy his product. These reasons alone are enough of a reason to choose his product over others. I am not going to even touch whatever specific formula Andrew is choosing to use in his product as it's outside my understanding and I haven't done enough research to contribute to that discussion; but damn, it works exactly as advertised.Respect to all in this discussion. A big part of my job and what I have done for the past (10 years! wow, I am old af) is to present scientific information to a general audience AND a specialized audience so if any of the above information is unclear, please ask for clarification.Ramsey
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/2823f90e-c261-706e-b78e-acb928ce4d15%40gmail.com.
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Ed,
These are good points, and I do agree that targeting
100-120g/hr would probably spell trouble for most randos.
In my personal experience, though, what causes me to crawl into
zone 1 is a lack of glycogen, which comes from carbohydrates.
When I upped my carb intake from 60g/hr to 80g/hr minimum,
targeting 100+g/hr, my performance on long brevets increased
significantly. I 100% agree that pushing tempo pace/z3 is an awful
idea - my goal is to keep from hitting the wall where I can't get
out of recovery pace/z1 and what works for me and makes sense
based on my understanding of the human body is more carbohydrates.
I do ride endurance pace at 150-160W... though I highly disagree
that's anywhere near Charly Miller pace! I do love my sleep,
though... a big part of why I'll probably never try for that
award.
The easy limiter here is if it's not easy to take on more carbs,
listen to your body and don't.
You should never be pushing yourself to the point of vomiting to
meet some ascribed carb intake, but you also shouldn't be scared
of taking on more carbs if you feel good. Of course, it'll get
harder to take on more carbs the longer the day wears on but
that's what gummi worms are for (and Geluminati, lol). When it's
hour 10 of a 400k and you know you need something and your
stomach is just rebelling against digesting anything at all,
that's an appropriate time to force the issue and make sure you
get something down every little bit.
I just asked someone who knows far more than me about average
carb/fat utilization at endurance pace and the answer was "It
Depends" (insert screaming emoji here), so unfortunately I can't
comment on your math from a position of certainty as any comment
I'd make breaks down without a % of carb/fat use, but I do know
that the body prefers carbs since they're faster energy and if
your body is reaching for carbs and you don't have them available
it spells trouble as you bonk. Additionally, the body starts with
a limited supply of glycogen and once it burns through that it's
pretty dependent on exogenous carbs (those you eat). Typically
endogenous (in the body) carbs last about 2hrs or so at reasonable
effort, so I dunno maybe 3ish hrs at rando pace. This starts to
get deeper into the "It Depends" territory. Also remember that the
harder you push, such as up a climb, the more carbs you're using
and they're slow to replenish.
Definitely agree on the eat lightly and often - chugging down a
bunch of carbs at one time is no bueno. That's one reason I love
having a drink mix - my body can self-regulate unconsciously as I
take a longer pull on a bottle, for more carbs, more electrolytes,
or just more fluids. Then I stick to a fairly regular routine with
carb intake from solid food (or gummi candy later on in long
rides).
In answer to your question about the theoretical 50g carb use/hr
and where does the excess go, it either sits in your stomach or
hopefully clears the stomach and gets into the intestine. But if
you're eating double what you're using your body is pretty quickly
going to throw up a flag and say "Hey, slow it down on feeding me
- I'm good for now", and folks should definitely listen to their
body. If you can tolerate the additional carb intake, though, once
the carbs on in your body they're either sitting there waiting to
get used or being converted to fat (and probably some other "or"s)
and having the energy available for use by the body is important.
Thanks for bringing up these points and giving me the opportunity
to think and talk more about these things. Basically, carbs are
good, if you can stomach more - do so. If you can't stomach more -
don't. Definitely don't push yourself to vomiting.
Andrew
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Randos,A fellow Randonneur, Andrew Adere, RUSA #13914, started a sports nutrition company, “Geluminati", they are currently selling a powdered endurance drink mix, of carbs and electrolytes. It's working great for the long riding we do. It nets 240 kcal / 60g carbs per bottle, along with 420mg sodium, and some potassium and magnesium.
The real delight, is how light it is - both in taste and on your tummy. I’ve used this product for months and on many long Hot rides this year, with zero issues. When I’m pushing on the bike, solid food is annoying to get down, this drink mix goes down easy and works well for a more constant flow of calories and electrolytes, than what I can get with solid food and pills.
One thing that sets this mix above simple surgery mixes, is the use of a new type of complex carb, highly branched cyclic dextrin (HBCD), as its main ingredient. This carb is formed of incredibly long chains of glucose, it's property allows it to clear the stomach quickly and then break down slowly in the intestine. It eliminates the gut distress, that I get with Maltodextrin. Even with all the energy and electrolytes, the HBCD allows the mix to be hypo-tonic, which means the drink is still going to be hydrating even with 60gms of carbs, per bottle.
On top of using this new type of carb for its useful properties, the mix also uses the 1:0.8 glucose:fructose ratio that research has shown to be most effective in reducing gut distress and increasing carbohydrate processing (how many calories you can digest in an hour). I’m a fan of a combination of High Glycemic simple sugars and complex carbs.
If you are not thrilled with your current drink mix, I'd recommend giving this a shot. Shipping can give a bit of sticker shock but it doesn't go up much if you buy multiple bags at once, and if you buy 10 the 10th is free. After testing with the first bag, I bought 10 at a time for the economy. Maybe get a few buddies to go in on the first try?
The website is www.geluminati.com and you can email Andrew at in...@geluminati.com with questions, he’s been super helpful to me. If you decide to give Andrew’s product a try, please email him and let him know you are a Randonneur, it’s our hope that we can get him as an advertiser in the American Randonneur Magizine ;=)
DanD
Dear Georgi,
Just catching up on this topic and I am a bit lost as people seem to use different definitions for what they eat or not. Just to avoid confusion on my end what is your nutrition plan for, say, a 400?
Best wishes,
Iwan
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Dear Georgi,
Thank you for taking the time for this detailed response.
Herer is what I did recently. On a recent solo 300K pre-ride in hilly PA (just under 15h) I opted for putting 200g of maltodextrin in my 2l water bladder. I stopped three times when I had a large coffee with milk (sidenote: coffee is a great performance enhancer!), a bagel at one stop, a pie at another, and I picked up 6 chicken popcorns at the last stop that I ate on the bike when I fancied them – those little things are great as they taste so different and pack a lot of salt which is good for mood. I added water to my water bladder at stops which thinned out the maltodextrin to naturally adjust for the fact that later on in the ride I might not be able to handle it well. In the future I will add fructose as well to follow recent insights or the 1:0.8 ratio.
In the past I used a lot of electrolyte tablets but I learned that I have to be careful with them. No doubt I sweat a lot but when I use the recommended dosage, I sometimes get severe water retention issues (no #1!) which resolves by not using them.
An alternative plan for me is to bring sandwich subs with salami or prosciutto. The white bread is easy to digest and and the cold cuts add some flavor and salts. Recommended! They also don’t spoil of go mushy on the bike.
In the end I can’t help but think that we are all so different from each other physically and in terms of our goals (perhaps some of us do want to get physically drained as that is an experience unlike anything we have in ours lives whilst others pursue personal bests).
Then there are those like me who have kids and a busy job so little time to train at some parts of the year to get the gut used to eating an unusual diet. So it is always good to keep our eyes open for options at stops.
Research advances a lot and I predict it will get better at including a more diverse age and fitness range along with better gender representation in particular to understand, for instance, how diet and metabolism evolves around menopause, or after having children; or how about when people have to go on medication for diabetes, blood pressure, statins, depression etc. – something that is of particular interest to us as many riders are older.
Iwan
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