[qubes-users] why mail-list?

[marmot-te]

hi here,

I understand that list mail is pretty useful,

but ... come on, this is not really common user-friendly
example 1 : I cannot know what it be said before I subscribe to it
example 2 : I know some users of Qubes than who don't give a chance to
that mail list, cause it is a new level of complexity (use of a good
mailing software) for people who already have already some troubles with
the very! useful man pages.

I understand that is pretty more useful than an obscure forum in many
cases BUT another example, there is common questions like
WhatStuffICanUseWithQubes who a new user want to know at the instant
s.he test it and s.he maybe never will ask the question nor know the
good answer.

I am (maybe?) not saying than Qubes need a forum, but, come on, there is
another solutions, which can complete this one, and will (maybe!) not
rely in google.

So, the real question is :
There is someone who takes care about it and optionally, Qubes_dev?

Thanks for reading my broken gramar

[David W. Hodgins]

On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 18:32:00 -0500, marmot-te <marm...@riseup.net> wrote:

> hi here,
>
> I understand that list mail is pretty useful,
>
> but ... come on, this is not really common user-friendly
> example 1 : I cannot know what it be said before I subscribe to it

As per the signature auto-appended to each message. See
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/qubes-users

> example 2 : I know some users of Qubes than who don't give a chance to
> that mail list, cause it is a new level of complexity (use of a good
> mailing software) for people who already have already some troubles with
> the very! useful man pages.

While forums are useful, mailing lists do not require using a web
browser. For a security oriented distribution, mailing lists are
easier to control in a secure way.

> I understand that is pretty more useful than an obscure forum in many
> cases BUT another example, there is common questions like
> WhatStuffICanUseWithQubes who a new user want to know at the instant
> s.he test it and s.he maybe never will ask the question nor know the
> good answer.

That's what the faq is for. https://www.qubes-os.org/faq/

> I am (maybe?) not saying than Qubes need a forum, but, come on, there is
> another solutions, which can complete this one, and will (maybe!) not
> rely in google.

Why use google? Learn how to use an email program, such as thunderbird
to read and post to the lists.

> So, the real question is :
> There is someone who takes care about it and optionally, Qubes_dev?
> Thanks for reading my broken gramar

I'm just an occasional user of qubes, but as a participant in the creation
of another distribution (Mageia), I know that if there are things in the
way a distro is doing things that you would like to see changed, and
can't convince the current team to implement those changes, join the team
and work towards getting those changes implemented.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

[David W. Hodgins]

On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 18:32:00 -0500, marmot-te <marm...@riseup.net> wrote:

> hi here,
>
> I understand that list mail is pretty useful,
>
> but ... come on, this is not really common user-friendly
> example 1 : I cannot know what it be said before I subscribe to it

Just realized google strips the sig. I'm using opera 12.16 to read
the mailing lists, which like other mail programs does show the sig,
so my apologies for implying it should have been obvious.

While I do use gmail due to it's convenience for what I do, I don't use
it's web interface except to control the settings. I use pop3 to download
all messages to my computer and smtp for replies.

I have other email accounts for things I don't want google to be able to
see, and use gpg where appropriate for end to end encryption.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

[Zrubi]

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Hash: SHA256

On 1/31/19 12:32 AM, marmot-te wrote:
> So, the real question is : There is someone who takes care about it
> and optionally, Qubes_dev?

There is an unofficial, PoC Qubes User Forum project:
https://qubes-os.info/


- --
Zrubi
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[19hundreds]

I agree at some level with what you are saying however, the current mailing list has a lot of valuable information so I believe it's gonna be hard to se it replaced with something else.

Beside the unofficial resources listed by others, I add https://reddit.com/r/qubes (it's SO comfortable!)

--

1900

https://www.reddit.com/user/19hundreds

Jan 30, 2019, 11:32 PM by marm...@riseup.net:

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[Stuart Perkins]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2019 18:01:58 +0100 (CET)
19hundreds <19hun...@tutanota.com> wrote:

>
>I agree at some level with what you are saying however, the current mailing list has a lot of valuable information so I believe it's gonna be hard to se it replaced with something else.
>

>Beside the unofficial resources listed by others, I add https://reddit.com/r/qubes <http://reddit.com/r/qubes> (it's SO comfortable!)
>

Some of us who keep e-mails off line have the additional benefit of having an archive of all e-mails since joining the list. I can search them for something BEFORE asking a new question. I have done so with this group a few times already and not had to bother asking something which was already asked and answered.

I use claws-mail to retrieve all of my e-mails (about 27 different e-mail accounts...one paid for [legal expectation of privacy] and several gmail/hotmail/yahoo) and since claws-mail is configured to store e-mails as discrete files, I can search them with grep and other *nix utilities. I have an archive going back almost 30 years with over 700,000 discrete e-mails from the many groups I used to belong to, as well as private stuff. It is far easier to just store them than to sort through them for deletion...but they are organized by folders/directories to make it easy to ignore the ones not pertinent for the time.

[Achim Patzner]

Before we begin:

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Am Donnerstag, den 31.01.2019, 18:01 +0100 schrieb 19hundreds:
>
> I agree at some level with what you are saying however, the current
> mailing list has a lot of valuable information so I believe it's

> gonna be hard to see it replaced with something else.

The problem is rather getting the people who are providing the answers
to use something else. It's a case of the prohpet having to walk to the
mountain... (People like to use mailing lists because dealing with them
fits their normal working environment and information archival tools.)

Besides: Mail teaches you patience. There is nothing worse than the
entitled Interweb Power User who is not getting an answer within 60
seconds.

> Beside the unofficial resources listed by others, I add
> https://reddit.com/r/qubes (it's SO comfortable!)

Reddit is definitely less comfortable if you use it in a desktop
environment/web browser than any well configured mail client. It is
usable without network connection. And let's not get into the
indignities of searching something in that trash heap.


Achim

[19hundreds]

Jan 31, 2019, 5:15 PM by no...@noses.com:

I agree all the way with you and Stuart Perkin. The problem for me is that I don't have an anonymous-enough IMAP or POP enabled account so I'm stuck with Tutanota webinterface. If you know the interface you can imagine the pain in following a thread. There is no tree-groupping for a start.

I know that Protonmail recently adopted some kind of IMAP solution but I didn't have the time to look into it. I don't know anyone who can send me a riseup invitation code ... it's kind of a blocking situation for me.

I suppose (but I'm not sure) that the OP is referring to these kind of situation. 

I can mention also another situation: I've just read the post about debian-9-minimal template. I need to say that the `qubes-core-agent-passwordless-root` is missing (I'm not sure if it's intentional) but I don't have the email downloaded in my email client so I can't reply there.

So, yes, the ML is a good thing. Perfect? not for all.

[kitchm]

The problem is more fundamental.

In all things, we need to seek more commonality and
simplicity in our lives. In computer related issues, I have
found over the years that people who do not understand how
things work (thanks to the poor educational systems) simply
like to add more complexity because they do not know to
follow industry standards. The other possibility is that
some do not want to change to better methodologies because
of a sad conservative mind-set.

In the case of digital communications, everything is based
upon voice (telephone), written words (document files and
e-mail) and the visual (videos and web pages). When it
comes to forums, either for discussion and/or for help, the
interface has traditionally been thru the browser window
into industry standard forum software, with the e-mail part
used only for notifications and private messages.

With that said, mailing lists were the old method before
there was a graphical user interface available. There is
little reason for its use any longer, and quite frankly, I
cannot think of a good one.

For this day and age, using anything other than standard
forum software is detrimental to usability and productivity.
That's just how it is, and there is no reason to go
backwards in these things.

We do not download forum databases; rather we expect the
hosts to maintain that for our use.

[Stuart Perkins]

Using software because everyone else is using it sounds very Microsoft to me.

[kitchm]

Oh, sorry if I was not clear. I was speaking of industry
standards and Microsoft is certainly not one of them. I
guess I assumed that everyone understood that. Again, a
problem with education.

Further, when speaking of standards, not only was I not
referencing proprietary ones, but I was speaking of
generally accepted usability ones. The standard way the
forums are laid out is exemplified by this one here. This
is generally accepted as an intuitive format.

[Franz]

Unbelievable!! I always thought that the only practical way to retrieve old emails was using a google account, but you seem to suggest that you are able to do the same  with claws-mail. How much space does 700K emails take? Because you seem to keep them on your computer, correct? And does the search of old emails work as convenient as google?

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[kitchm]

The basic concept here is clarify what is being discussed.
There appears to be two things; one is how a mail-list works
and the other is how a mail-list is not as good as a forum.

Being able to retrieve old e-mails assumes one has a mail
store. Either one keeps them on their own computer by
downloading them from the server thru POP3, he accesses them
from the server by IMAP or she has to access a mail-list
server so see them thru the web interface.

In the case of the mail-list server, one may also use his or
her own e-mail client program, such as Thunderbird, Claws or
other program. Both of these programs can handle newsgroups
and Usenet listings.

Google bought Dejanews archives of the postings on Usenet.
They then started Google Groups while still maintaining a
gateway to Usenet. It makes some sense that if one can
handle newsgroups then one should be able to handle
googlegroups. Sadly, such is not the case.

Being Google, they opted for a proprietary setup and do not
allow access like the standard methodology of the Usenet.
Another strike against Google.

Therefore, there is no reason to use Google Groups at all.
If I have to go to another program to view the information
shared between people, then I will use a forum. At least I
can see that in a properly graphical way. Not only that,
but all postings after my initial one will come right to my
e-mail client.

[Eric]

What is all the fuss about? I am replying here from the
Qubes user forum that is integrated into the mailing list
since October last year. A link to this thread:
https://qubes-os.info/index.php?t=msg&th=650&start=0&
This forum is currently unofficial but seems to work fine.
Only has a few months worth of data so far but a Google
search pulls up the groups entries for older stuff.

[bill...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, January 31, 2019 at 9:47:37 PM UTC-5, kitchm wrote:
> The basic concept here is clarify what is being discussed.
> There appears to be two things; one is how a mail-list works
> and the other is how a mail-list is not as good as a forum.

> [snip]

Maybe I'm not getting something here. What is absolutely necessary in a "forum" that is not present in Google Groups? You can search it, it's archived, and threads are separated. The only thing I can think of that more complex forum software might give you would be categories of posts. Since you can set this up to send and receive emails just like a mailinglist, it seems to me you can use it however you want. I don't get what this is about.

A professional organization I belong to uses a mailinglist instead of a forum for two reasons:

1) A mailinglist is push, while a forum is pull. Once you have the mailinglist set up, you don't have to "do" anything to get it -- it just appears in your mailbox and you read and respond as you feel. In contrast, with a forum, you have to *go* to the forum, log in, and interact. That's effort. The organization found that about 25% of the mailinglist subscribers stopped participating when it tried out a forum.

2) This does not apply to this group, but the organization explicitly does not want to keep archives for legal reasons. A forum almost necessarily means archives, but you can set up a mailinglist to act as a nothing more than a relay.

[unman]

Indeed- what *is* the fuss about..
The main users list is available as a google group - you can use that
as a mailing list, or using the web interface. You dont need a google
account.
Thanks to Zrubi's efforts, the same content is available as a standard
Forum.
The content is also available archived at
https://www.mail-archive.com/qubes...@googlegroups.com/
(The content also used to be available via Gmane before the breakage.)

All this is explained at:
https://www.qubes-os.org/support/

To anyone who cant search their archived mail, just one word
(two?):notmuch.

unman

[unman]

Thank you for the education.
You can interact with the googlegroups list entirely through email.
If you want to use a forum use Zrubi's:
https://qubes-os.info

[unman]

mutt+notmuch

[kitchm]

I think that it is far more helpful for someone who has
actually done it to clearly and carefully explain the steps
involved to use the mail list (or google group postings or
whatever you call them) in Thunderbird and other e-mail
clients, as well as Firefox and other web browsers or within
Tutanota itself.

I have read everything that has been posted, plus the direct
administrator's comments about how to do it, without finding
anything that works so far.

Personal beliefs mean little when people are crying out for
help. If something can be proven to be intuitive, then
speak up, or else hold your tongue. The bottom line remains
that it provably does not work at this point in time.

Thank you.

[Mike Keehan]

What doesn't work?

[jean-...@protonmail.ch]

marmot-te wrote on Wed, 30 January 2019 23:32

> hi here,
>
> I understand that list mail is pretty useful,
>
> but ... come on, this is not really common
> user-friendly
> example 1 : I cannot know what it be said before I
> subscribe to it
> example 2 : I know some users of Qubes than who don't
> give a chance to
> that mail list, cause it is a new level of complexity
> (use of a good
> mailing software) for people who already have already
> some troubles with
> the very! useful man pages.

Just use the forum then:
https://qubes-os.info

[kitchm]

@marmot-te
I couldn't agree more. I have never seen such a poor
support forum example (and I've seen and used a ton of
them). To add insult to injury, we are forced to use one of
the worst company's services when it comes to privacy.

Lack of intuitive design and poor interface makes the whole
thing abhorrent.

Thanks for that comment.

(By the way, I am going to use qubes-os.info from now on.
Give it a try.)

[Achim Patzner]

Am Donnerstag, den 31.01.2019, 11:10 -0600 schrieb Stuart Perkins:
> Some of us who keep e-mails off line have the additional benefit of having an archive of all e-mails since joining the list.

I don't because I immediately erase everything not interesting to me.
But that's one of the more important aspects of Mail: The simple format
that makes storage and searching extremely easy.

> I have an archive going back almost 30 years with over 700,000

Only? I'm obviously still erasing too few. But this is the most
important part: I still retain ownership of my data not some strange
"cloud" thing.


Achim

[Achim Patzner]

Am Freitag, den 01.02.2019, 16:24 -0500 schrieb kitchm:
> Personal beliefs mean little when people are crying out for
> help. If something can be proven to be intuitive, then
> speak up, or else hold your tongue. The bottom line remains
> that it provably does not work at this point in time.

Stop talking in the name of others who did not appoint you to.

Obviously those you want to draw on as your personal unpaid resource
are using their preferred technology. For those who cannot deal with
that there are certain mitigative measures (like the Google archive
everybody is free to use without a restriction or the gateway to a web
forum for those who cannot live without it).

> If something can be proven to be intuitive,
> then speak up, or else hold your tongue.

Yes, it is indeed time to close this useless discussion.

As long as you are not paying for it: Take it or leave it. Tongue
holding seems to be a great idea.


Achim

[Achim Patzner]

Am Donnerstag, den 31.01.2019, 20:16 +0100 schrieb 19hundreds:
> The problem for me
> is that I don't have an anonymous-enough IMAP or POP enabled account
> so I'm stuck with Tutanota webinterface. If you know the interface
> you can imagine the pain in following a thread. There is no tree-
> groupping for a start.

If you are in such dire a position that you have to remain anonymous
you should read the group using TAILS on the TOR side of Google. Even
that's not reliable, though. Or stop believing in the false protection
of remaining anonymous.


Achim

[Stuart Perkins]

Yep. There is no "cloud"...it is just someone else's computer. Control over "my" data is my main reason for such.

My current client has a court order to NEVER delete another e-mail, also from about 30 years ago. My 700,000 is a drop in a bucket compared to what they have to retain. I think theirs are in a database of sorts though, which puts them at risk as technology drifts. Plain text files are plain text files and will continue to be plain text files until ...

[19hundreds]

Feb 2, 2019, 1:23 PM by no...@noses.com:

Or stop believing in the false protection

of remaining anonymous.

Do you have reasons to believe that qubes + whonix + vpn (carefully used) is not enough to grant network anonymity? I'm not considering seizing or physical access to hardware. 

[kitchm via Forum]

Some comments based on what has been posted so far:

- Google is never a secure option.

- No one has ever explained how to archive on a local
computer.

- Prohibiting top posting is a bad idea because we don't do
that with the e-mail standard.

- There is nothing wrong with the fact that busy people
appreciate fast answers.

- We must all recognize the lowest common denominator which
are interfaces such as Tutanota. If you've never used a
web-mail interface you probably don't understand this.

- Yeah, I also think that the forum is the cat's pajamas.
God's blessing on the one who set it up.

- Push and pull is a misnomer in this setting. Subscribing
to a forum allows a person to get just what notifications
they desire. The mailing list sends everything. That's
just another form of spam.

- Both a mailing list and a forum have a repository
somewhere containing all the posts. Legality has little to
do with that.

- There is no reasonable organization to mailing lists, and
as such they are misleading.

- "However, a Google account is required in order to post
through the web interfaces." You cannot get around this
requirement, and no one has yet replied as to how it can be
done. It just doesn't work.

By the way, to everyone who wants anonymity, you cannot use
a mailing list or a forum. It is currently illegal by
federal law to clear your browser history. What do you
think would be the ruling regarding deleting an archive?
You had better not keep the info on your computer, and you
had better make sure you are anonymous and untrackable.

[kitchm via Forum]

@Achim Patzner - noses, Google groups is not intuitive by
any standard. That is a simple fact. And frankly, I don't
understand why you and unman are being just a little too
negative and accusatory. This is a good discussion and it
hits on many parts of the mailing list problem. No one is
requiring you to contribute, so if you do, please be nice
about it. And please note that no one at any time has
displayed any dissatisfaction with the help that is offered
by the people who participate. There is no reason to assume
such, as you have in your comments. There is no reason to
close this topic, and if you truly believed that holding
your tongue was a good idea, then why did you comment
further? It is totally non sequitur.

[awokd]

kitchm via Forum:

> - Prohibiting top posting is a bad idea because we don't do
> that with the e-mail standard.

Email doesn't follow the standard. See
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 3.1.1.

> - "However, a Google account is required in order to post
> through the web interfaces." You cannot get around this
> requirement, and no one has yet replied as to how it can be
> done. It just doesn't work.

Multiple people have suggested using Zrubi's forum, which does not
require a Google account.

> It is currently illegal by
> federal law to clear your browser history.

Cite?

[Achim Patzner]

Am Dienstag, den 05.02.2019, 13:32 -0500 schrieb kitchm via Forum:
> @Achim Patzner - noses, Google groups is not intuitive by
> any standard.

So what? Stop being an entitled whiner and learn to use the tools that
are available instead of demanding the world to rotate around you.

> if you truly believed that holding
> your tongue was a good idea, then why did you comment
> further?

It was a polite way of telling you to stop whining and grow a pair.


Achim

[Achim Patzner]

Am Dienstag, den 05.02.2019, 13:34 -0500 schrieb kitchm via Forum:
> - Google is never a secure option.

And so what? This is a public mailing list with very little
requirements.

> - No one has ever explained how to archive on a local
> computer.

Yeah, well, learn to use the tools you are dealing with. Or pay for a
teacher.

> - Prohibiting top posting is a bad idea because we don't do
> that with the e-mail standard.

You mean "Outlook standard". Before Microsoft encroached upon the world
top posting was a clear request to be shunned. You should have tried it
on Usenet...

Again: If you want to be art of a group, adapt to their standards. or
make up your own environment and live with feeling very lonely there.

- We must all recognize the lowest common denominator which
> are interfaces such as Tutanota. If you've never used a
> web-mail interface you probably don't understand this.

No. Stop patronizin "us". We don't have to do anything. Learn to find
appropriate tools or live with the things you have. You're the land of
the grown ups.

> The mailing list sends everything. That's
> just another form of spam.

I just saw Picard and Riker sneaking around the corner doing a double
facepalm.

- There is no reasonable organization to mailing lists, and
> as such they are misleading.

And now Janeway is joining them. Can it get any better?

> By the way, to everyone who wants anonymity, you cannot use
> a mailing list or a forum. It is currently illegal by
> federal law to clear your browser history.

Wich federation? And if that's a problem just leave the Alpha quadrant.

> What do you
> think would be the ruling regarding deleting an archive?
> You had better not keep the info on your computer, and you
> had better make sure you are anonymous and untrackable.

You might be better off in "Tinfoil-Hat Folding 101".


Achim

[Stuart Perkins]

On Tue, 05 Feb 2019 13:34:04 -0500
kitchm via Forum <qubes...@qubes-os.info> wrote:

>Some comments based on what has been posted so far:

>...

> It is currently illegal by
>federal law to clear your browser history.

>...

Illegal for who? Perhaps a Federal employee...on a work computer.

[John Goold]

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On 2/6/19 1:12 AM, 'awokd' via qubes-users wrote:
> kitchm via Forum:
>
...

>> It is currently illegal by federal law to clear your browser
>> history.
>
> Cite?

What one does with one's browser history, even assuming one's browser
has a browser history, is clearly not governed by law, except perhaps
in countries like China and Russion.
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[kitchm via Forum]

It is called a Trump-ism. Believing that whatever one says
is truth.

So did you not read Stuart's post where he states "My

current client has a court order to NEVER delete another

e-mail"? Have you not read about the Boston Bomber case?
Have you not read books by experts such as Kevin Mitnick?
We who have, know the truth, because we keep abreast of what
the experts say. It is not our own opinion. Further,
anyone who is concerned about anonymity and privacy should
be doing the same. Pretending to know doesn't make it so.

Awokd, you have legitimate and good questions. Please note
the following from the RFC you referenced. "This memo does
not specify an Internet standard of any kind."

You also wrote, "Multiple people have suggested using

Zrubi's forum, which does not require a Google account." I

couldn't agree more; as I have mentioned before. Zrubi is a
Godsend.

Achim, you wrote "So what". Really? You don't see the
significance in that? BTW, you are certainly not polite,
but you are obviously such a whiner since you continue to
whine about me and make this personal.

[unman]

Actually, it may be governed by law in the US, but not in Russia.
The FBI have interpreted Sarbanes-Oxley as creating a
felony offence where one deletes browser history where there was
reasonable expectation of investigation.
It has been used against Matanov, a friend of the Boston bombers, and
David Kernell, who hacked Sarah Palin's email.
The EFF have highlighted this interpretation of Sarbanes Oxley as
egregious, but no doubt the authorities deem it necessary.

Note that it is NOT illegal in the US to clear your browser history:
but it may prove a felony offence to do so. In the two cases cited there
were reasonable grounds to suppose that a federal investigation would
take place.

[Holger Levsen]

On Wed, Feb 06, 2019 at 11:34:57AM -0500, kitchm via Forum wrote:
> [...] BTW, you are certainly not polite,

> but you are obviously such a whiner since you continue to
> whine about me and make this personal.

can you all please stop your ad-hominem attacks and off-topic
discussions and keep this list about Qubes OS?! (Also, please accept that
there are different use-cases for Qubes OS and different definitions of
privacy, security and everything.)

Thanks already.


--
tschau,
Holger

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
PGP fingerprint: B8BF 5413 7B09 D35C F026 FE9D 091A B856 069A AA1C

[John Goold]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 2/6/19 10:36 AM, unman wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 06, 2019 at 10:15:54AM -0600, John Goold wrote: On

> 2/6/19 1:12 AM, 'awokd' via qubes-users wrote:
>>>> kitchm via Forum:
>>>>
> ...
>>>>> It is currently illegal by federal law to clear your
>>>>> browser history.
>>>>
>>>> Cite?
>
> What one does with one's browser history, even assuming one's
> browser has a browser history, is clearly not governed by law,
> except perhaps in countries like China and Russion.
>

> Actually, it may be governed by law in the US, but not in Russia.
> The FBI have interpreted Sarbanes-Oxley as creating a felony
> offence where one deletes browser history where there was
> reasonable expectation of investigation. It has been used against
> Matanov, a friend of the Boston bombers, and David Kernell, who
> hacked Sarah Palin's email. The EFF have highlighted this
> interpretation of Sarbanes Oxley as egregious, but no doubt the
> authorities deem it necessary.
>
> Note that it is NOT illegal in the US to clear your browser
> history: but it may prove a felony offence to do so. In the two
> cases cited there were reasonable grounds to suppose that a federal
> investigation would take place.
>

I think it should go without saying that anyone that violates a court
order issued against them is committing an offense.

Hmmm... So, in the U.S., if you are in a position that there was "a
reasonable expectation of investigation", any attempt to maintain your
privacy may be construed (at least by the FBI) to be a felony offence?
Wow! Egregious seems to be an understatement.

It seems a bit surreal. A person was not expecting to be the target of
a government/justice system investigation, but someone or some group
say the person should have expected to be investigated... I can see
this happening in a non-democratic regime, but it seems unreal in a
nation professing to be at the forefront of democracy.

Anyway, I do not have to worry about this as I do not allow my browser
to keep track of my browsing history (unless the browser is doing so
surreptitiously). So I have no browser history to delete. However, I
suppose if I became the subject of an investigation, any of my
attempts (all mild) to maintain my privacy would be interpreted as
nefarious.

Anyway, as you implied, I was making assumptions based on my
expectations of living in a democracy.

It's an interesting discussion.
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[Holger Levsen]

On Wed, Feb 06, 2019 at 12:51:04PM -0600, John Goold wrote:
> It's an interesting discussion.

yes, but it's also entirely off-topic for this list. please stop it.

[Stuart Perkins]

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Of course the main reason to lunch the ME in bios (for those with systems the right vintage, or at least set the HAP bit) and running Qubes to begin with is to make it difficult for prying eyes to see what we do on our computers. Not that we are doing anything "nefarious", but as far as I'm concerned, my business is exactly that...my business. It pays to always use...private browsing and/or disposable VM for general internet stuff. That way you never overtly act to "hide" anything, so whether or not you have a reasonable expectation of being investigated is a non-starter.
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[John Goold]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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On 2/6/19 1:52 PM, kit...@tutanota.com wrote:
> Yeah, good buddy, we are all making the same assumptions. Knowing
> about the extent the Five Eyes will go to gather your personal
> information makes two points; one is that if they do it, they must
> have a right to do it, and two, because they are, we must fight
> against it 24/7. You are very wise in not keeping records. I
> couldn't agree more.
>
> So then I must ask you, how do you feel about your name being kept,
> as part of your international dossier, associated with the mailing
> list?
>

Actually, I do not mind people knowing my name or roughly where I live
(Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada). I do not mind people knowing I am
a 73-year old male.

What does bother me is a concept I came across, decades ago when I
first starting working on mainframe computers and before The Internet
was publicly accessible. It was the subject of a book called
"Databanks in a Free Society" (I remember the title, but not the name
of the author).

Privacy in my Grandparents age (possibly your Great-Grandparents) was
not ensured because of the lack of access to information. One could
travel to a person's city and look up information about who owned what
property and what price they bought it for, search the registry of
births and deaths, etc. and eventually, often at great cost, put
together a pretty detailed dossier on a person. Part of that was
because it required a lot of investigation — it might even be
difficult to determine where a person was born (not just the city, but
even the state or country).

That great cost gave people a degree of privacy, as did the difficulty
of confirming or disproving a random individual's identity.

Then, starting around 1948, computers were developed enough and made
available to anyone with the money to buy one (i.e. large enough
businesses like insurance companies, large banks,... that could afford
a mainframe computer and the facilities to house it). And, of course,
governments started to store records on computer media (often reels of
tape).

The premise of the book was that it was "now" possible for large
corporations and, especially the various divisions of a government, to
exchange, correlate, merge and massage disparate lots of information
and build up dossiers on people cheaply enough to make it practical to
do so. So, how would those "Databanks" be used in "a Free Society"?
What about an individual's right to privacy?

Of course, we are well past that stage. Information on people is
almost trivially gathered, correlated and massaged. Because of that,
our expectation of privacy (and anonymity) has been shattered.

We can only maintain a fraction of the privacy that my grandparents
had. And, it has become harder for individuals to maintain even a
modicum of privacy, never mind "live off the grid".

Finally, to answer your question: I do not mind my name being
associated with this mailing list.

What I do worry about is my identity being "stolen"; that is, someone
(or some people) being able to impersonate me in a convincing way. I
worry about people being able to access my bank accounts fraudulently
or incur debts that appear to be my debts. About someone destroying or
stealing records I have on my computer that, once upon a time, were
paper records...

Does sharing my name and a few bits of personal information make it
easier for someone to do the above? Probably. But I do not want to
live as a recluse.
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[Achim Patzner]

Am Mittwoch, den 06.02.2019, 11:34 -0500 schrieb kitchm via Forum:
> So did you not read Stuart's post where he states "My
> current client has a court order to NEVER delete another
> e-mail"?

So you don't know the difference between a court order and a law?

> Have you not read books by experts such as Kevin Mitnick?
> We who have, know the truth, because we keep abreast of what
> the experts say.

*rofl*

> Achim, you wrote "So what".

regarding putting public discussions into a place where they are easily
redistributable and archived

> Really? You don't see the
> significance in that?

I do which is why I want to keep them in an easily archivable format
for offline storage where I can keep them accessible in case of the
original mechanism failing. Instead of putting it at the mercy of some
"web forum".

> BTW, you are certainly not polite,

Definitely not to entitled snowflakes.


Achim

[bill...@gmail.com]

It should probably be noted that those 2015 prosecutions were a bit novel, and it has not become common practice. In fact, the Supreme Court reigned it in a little with Yates v US (2015) in which they threw out the conviction of a fisherman who threw away an illegal catch to avoid prosecution. Sarbanes-Oxley was written for corporate stuff, to stop corporations from deleting emails and shredding documents in order to hide a crime that they knew would be, but had not yet been, moved forward for prosecution. The application of this to conspiracy to commit terrorist acts is not too far-fetched, but its application was novel, and was not tested in appeal as far as I know.

In terms of private citizens engaging in routine privacy measures, I know of no such prosecution. Sure, an aggressive DA can charge anybody with anything for any reason, and some pay no attention to truth, precedent or law at all. But if someone has a case of someone as a private citizen who routinely cleans up their files, I'd love to see it.

Since Oxley Sarbanes requires the intent to interfere in the investigation of a criminal act, it would seem to me that a private citizen who routinely cleans house for privacy reasons while not engaged in such acts would have an affirmative defense that continuing to do so does not indicate such specific intent. For instance, as I mentioned, a professional organization I belong to does not archive its mailinglist specifically to avoid people mining archives to look for embarrassing quotes for use in the newspapers and in court. The intent there is clearly *not* to cover up a crime, but instead to protect privacy. I'm no lawyer, of course, but I find it hard to generalize the idea that Oxley Sarbanes is that huge of a threat as it currently is enforced.

I'll also point out that if anything were this kind of violation, then the Hillary email stuff would have been ripe for prosecution under this law, and the DoJ clearly said that the presumption is that there isn't criminal intent, at least with respect to that kind of behavior. I suspect that most prosecutors know this, which means that egregious overapplication of this law will be unlikely, else it will be repealed -- since most Republicans hate the law as it stands and are looking for an excuse to get rid of it.

[Stuart Perkins]

Sarbanes/Oxley certainly has given me and a lot of other consultants...and auditors...a lot of work. :)

[marmot-te]

Thank you all for your answers.

Thank you for https://qubes-os.info/
I'm discovering it.

There is now just one thing who is boring me : i don't like google and
don't want to feed the monster.
There are others free services for mailing lists, like the very nice Riseup.

Whatever, good night and good luck.

[kitchm via Forum]

Don't worry snowflakes, I'm here to help you and you are
welcome.

This is a post about why one should use a mailing list. The
answer is that they should not. The many reasons for not so
doing have been well addressed by the thoughtful comments of
most and those are right on point. Thanks J.R.G., and don't
you stop it at all.

The discussion includes the fine points about the legality
of keeping the information of a mailing list on one's own
computer for searching or referencing, or whatever some have
thought it useful for. Obviously not a good idea for the
security reasons stated. (I might add that not one person
has listed the steps for so doing anyway. Even when asked,
it appears it is easy to talk but hard to do.)

From another angle, we see that using this forum is far
better than the mailing list for most people. I have seen
no statistics that prove otherwise. And with the huge
advantages to graphical interfaces, text-based systems are
simply not that popular.

Further, using anything by Google is a bad idea. There are
plenty of alternatives, and when it comes to mailing lists,
FOSS forums are all the bomb and for good reason. Also,
https://spreadprivacy.com/how-to-remove-google/.

And because the damn mailing list does not work thru email,
I must re-post my replies here:

marmot te, Right you are. And wonderful free forum software
too.

billollib, Excellent comments. My take is this:
Hillary has powerful friends, as does Trump. The friend of
the Boston Bombers did not.

I would really like to hear about an appeal, but a poor
person like you and I have not the resources to pursue such
a thing, especially from prison, and a federal one at that.

Remember, no law is a threat unless enforced. And we never
know when. Also remember that when public passions are
stirred up, anything may happen that may not normally be
so.

The fact remains that I do not want to be put in that
position. Therefore, the answer is always "What cache?".
That same as "Who me?" being associated with a mailing
list.

Stuart Perkins, Yeah, buddy, I'll bet it has. I guess it is
better safe than sorry.

[kitchm via Forum]

Sorry JRG, I also wanted to post my response here as well:

Right you are. The authors are Alan F. Westin and Michael
A. Baker. It came out in paperback in 1972, according to
Amazon.

I think that maybe there was also the lack of accuracy in
the records because the powers that be often required no
corroboration. In the worst, a "friend" could vouch for
someone else. That doesn't work today, as you point out.

Currently, the amount of information gather about you or
anyone else is staggering and often quite surprising.

But I do not think that we must be recluses to keep our
public personas separate from our public ones. We simply
need to practice good methods, as the experts say. For
instance, why would anyone ever want a corporation in their
name. That would be very unwise. It simply is not
necessary today.

If you saw me, you would never know anything about me nor be
able to associate this post with my public persona. And
that's the whole point.

I can respect your choices, and I support your right to make
them. In fact, dying for that right is part of the package.
In the same manner, I only hope that men and women of
intelligence everywhere respect the rights of others to
choose not to make the same choices. I also suggest that
those who wish to server the public make sure to offer those
choices to those they serve.

[js...@bitmessage.ch]

kitchm via Forum:

> The discussion includes the fine points about the legality
> of keeping the information of a mailing list on one's own
> computer for searching or referencing, or whatever some have
> thought it useful for. Obviously not a good idea for the
> security reasons stated. (I might add that not one person
> has listed the steps for so doing anyway. Even when asked,
> it appears it is easy to talk but hard to do.)

Hi,

I think the easiest way to do that is to sign up for the mailing list
using an email provider that supports POP3 (i guess IMAP could work too,
but i hate IMAP). Then set up an email client like Thunderbird using
POP3, and all posts to the mailing list (from that point forward) will
be downloaded to Thunderbird as emails. Then you can just archive
everything (or as much or as little as you want). It may also make sense
to transfer the archived emails to an offline VM for security reasons.

If you mean to also archive all posts that were made before you joined
the mailing list, i think there's a way to do that too, but i'm not sure
how.

--
Jackie

[Tai...@gmx.com]

If you are not smart enough to use a mailinglist you are not smart
enough to use linux.

Catering to the lowest common denominator is an impossible task that
shouldn't be tried as it always comes at the expense of everyone else.

ML's are the most secure and best method of communication even better if
they aren't hosted by the evil spyware google.

I provide many of the answers here and I refuse to use reddit or
anything else that requires javascript or what not - reddit also engages
in censorship and the owners stealth-edit the posts of others and
endorse politically motivated moderation tactics. Yet another "used to
be cool" type of place now played out and all the original users have
migrated to other places like voat where speech is still free.

[John Goold]

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Hash: SHA256

This reply is not aimed at the Taiidan, it is a disagreement with all
people who make, what on the surface are logical arguments without
thinking through the logic carefully.

I get frustrated when people use specious arguments to make a point.
Any argument of the form "If you are not smart enough to <do x> you are
not smart enough to <do y>" is generally wrong. A simple example of the
lack of implication is "If you are not smart enough to use a
sophisticated camera, you are not smart enough to write sophisticated
programs."

Also being smart enough to do something does not equate to wanting to do
that something.

Making the leap to "catering to the lowest common denominator" is simply
insulting. I can use mailing lists, but I prefer, if possible, not
to do so. qubes-users is, in fact, the only mailing list I use.
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[Achim Patzner]

On 20190225 at 16:00 -0600 John Goold wrote:
> Making the leap to "catering to the lowest common denominator" is simply
> insulting.

No. it's necessary. And often enough people even miss the necessary
steps in that setting (like registering their PGP keys... even though
it is quite simple).

And you're missing the obvious points like minimal use of available
bandwidth or asynchronous delivery.

And as long as using Qubes is more complicated than getting Arch
running there are more important tasks than catering to people who are
think mailing lists are lacking sophistication or comfort.


Achim

[cooloutac]

I love that they use google. Keeps miscreants out. I call this a forum, use it like a forum, and it has the word forum in the google link.

The only mail I get in my email, are those threads I have started or subscribed to. I think I check my google mail quarterly lol.

[Sake]

In response to Re: [qubes-users] why mail-list?

--
<:3nn~~

Hello again,

https://qubes-os.info/ seems to be off for months now.
bad new!
What's happen?

Is there some people interested to discuss for bringing a free way to be
informed and structuring the help about Qubes?

Did you heard about framosoft initiatives? of CHATONS? (french acronym
for Collectif des Hébergeurs Alternatifs,Transparents, Ouverts, Neutres
et Solidaires;
or
Collective of Alternate, Transparent, Open, Neutral and Solidary Hosts).

[Sake]

Hello wizards

I found very few resources on WMs except the official doc.

What is your WM and why?
Do you have something to say about configuration? Especially when it
comes for QubesOS?
Can you link some good advises?

Did you notice that the official doc for awesome is more rude about
windows focusing than basic XFCE setup?

[awokd]

Sake:

This was in your signature, so I'm not sure if you meant to send it but:

> https://qubes-os.info/ seems to be off for months now.
> bad new!
> What's happen?

Please see
https://www.mail-archive.com/qubes...@googlegroups.com/msg28187.html.
One alternative is to use qubes...@googlegroups.com as a classic
mailing list.

--
- don't top post
Mailing list etiquette:
- trim quoted reply to only relevant portions
- when possible, copy and paste text instead of screenshots