Do you use Qubes OS as your main OS on primary PC? What kind of work do you get done on it?
lemond...@gmail.com
I want to run Davinci Resolve, which is a video editor that runs on Linux, but it takes advantage of the discrete GPU, and it seems Qubes does not support hardware acceleration nor virtual machines.
So, I'm curious, for those who use Qubes, what actual work do you get done?
I've also tried playing youtube videos but found audio out of sync and I could not resize or maximize the playback window.
I may have tried the second to latest version released so maybe things have changed or will change in 4.x?
Not being able to run VMs, Davinci Resolve, or youtube are making me have to look at other options like OS X, Windows 10, and Linux.
I was leaning towards OS X but enabling case sensitivity for the file system can break certain apps like those from Adobe, or cause other problems.. And I prefer linux/unix like command-lines to DOS, so kind of leaning away from Windows 10.
That leaves Linux distros like Debian, Mint, e bv But I'm wondering how secure it will be compared to Qubes?
Yuraeitha
Many of your listed concerns are not a problem and can be fixed, except discrete high-end GPU's, however something that is being worked regarding exactly that issue. If successful, then you may very well see high-end discrete graphics in Qubes sooner or later, maybe, if you're lucky, as soon as the next 4.1. But I'm neither an expert, nor an inside, nor has there been any official messages about this, however if you go stalk public channels on github, you can see some interesting proof of concepts being worked on for Qubes 4.1. discrete graphics for a single AppVM only, which won't compromise security of the rest of the system.
I've been using Qubes OS since well over 1½ year now, and I've used it for pretty much everything, except high-end graphics related applications as you're also asking about. But most normal use-cases and browsing needs for graphics works just fine, you should not have issues with YouTube, it seems like you got a bad codec though.
I know you're a Linux user, so I apologize if I write a bit condescending by writing extra details below. I'm not, it's just the way I write, I apologize in advance.
If you got issues with YouTube, try this, see if it works better for you, on all my Qubes OS systems, at least YouTube runs smoothly.
First you might want to download fedora version 26 if you got 25 which is not not updated anymore. There is an easy straight forward single command that will do that for you, but it takes a while to download and install, since it's a full OS in and on itself. Take a break while it runs, you won't have to do anything in-between start-end.
in dom0 terminal: sudo qubes-dom0-update qubes-template-fedora-26
Once you got it downloaded, installed, and it reported finished, then proceed by opening the fedora-26 terminal, update it fully. Make sure it's shutdown again once finished. Then you do;
In dom0 terminal: qvm-clone fedora-26 fedora-26-apps"
or whichever name you want to give your clone.
Then open up the fedora-26-apps terminal and type in;
sudo dnf config-manager --set-enabled rpmfusion-free rpmfusion-nonfree
sudo dnf upgrade --refresh
Now you can simply install FFmpeg (For HTML5 that for example allow firefox to play HTML5 videos), VLC, and other useful playback and codecs from RPM-Fusion in your template.
sudo dnf install FFmpeg
sudo dnf install vlc
Shutdown your new template, and then create a new AppVM based on it. Now you should ab able to play any HTML5 content, try open Firefox and type in www.youtube.com/html5 and see if everything looks like it should work.
Now protected content, such as HTML5 protected content, you will probably need stuff like DRM. DRM sometimes work in firefox.
If you run into DRM, Silverlight (Pipe etc) issues, in terms of copyright protection, then you can download Goolgle-Chrome from google's own website, which should run most things without a trouble. If you dedicate a template for Google-Chrome playing videos, then at least you limited your "trust" to google, to only that template, and only those AppVM's based on that template.
Generally though, I can play everything in Firefox, no trouble, no lag, smooth, even 4k videos on my 46" 4k TV that I run Qubes OS on. It just runs smooth, you really have nothing to worry about here. Whatever issues you got with YouTube, it should be possible to be fixed. Just be sure your hardware is strong enough, but if it can play in other Linux or Windows, then it should be able to play on Qubes OS too.
As for full-screen, there are multiple of ways to fix these. The reason you don't get it out of the box, is due to security reasons which is Qubes OS's first priority. Some may judge this is a minor security issue though, and in the end of the day, if you bypass the full-screen limit, your Qubes OS system is still vastly more secure than most other systems out there. A quick way to bypass it, is if you use the default of the box XFCE4, then you can simply hold down "alt key + space key" let go of both keys, and then just type the f key, for full-screen. If you got another language than English, then you may have to use your mouse or press F again to go down the appearing list on your screen. There are other approaches, but this should get you started.
In short, Qubes OS is a new way of life when it comes to using a computer. It's typically hard to adjust for most people, and it may take some days, weeks, or even months, depending on what you were used to before getting on Qubes OS. But I'm sure, you will find that Qubes OS can do pretty much most things you would ever want it to do, and whatever it cannot do, is being worked on to allow it to be able to do it.
Most important of all, the Qubes OS developers are very forward thinking, unlike many other OS projects out there, which are very conservative, backward, kind of thinking, always staying in their old paradigms. As such, they follow an evolutionary pattern, Qubes on the other hand, follows a revolutionary pattern of way of thinking. This means, Qubes OS is always pushing limits, they want to break down limits, and do things which was not thought possible before. Of course, all the while while keeping security as the top priority.
Now, again, I'm no expert, have no insider knowledge or anything, however this is how I perceive the work being done here. Qubes OS is nothing short but amazing, and I've never been happier with any other OS, than I am with Qubes OS.
There are issues, yes, and currently it's a bit messy to get Windows 7 running on Qubes 4.0. which works on Qubes 3.2. But it might get fixed as there isn't much to do, it just lacks a developer, but it looks like someone might pick it considering the focus it's receiving at the moment. Win8 and Win10 won't run with the Qubes-Tools yet due to their new touch-input and interface systems, which needs extra development. But this too looks like some end-users who are also developers, might look into. Eventually these things will likely get fixed.
If you can install Adobe, i.e. on Windows or through Wine on Linux, then yes, you can run it on Qubes. Just as long it won't need high-end graphics, which won't work in Qubes 3.2. or Qubes 4.0. But fingers crossed for Qubes 4.1., however, don't get hopes up yet as it's early development, and no one has promised anything, and it may very well be pushed to Qubes 5, Qubes 6, etc. instead, but who knows, time will tell.
Yuraeitha
Also the question you ask regarding virtual machines, Qubes in and on it self is a massive virtual machine. You can install any Operation System you like in Qubes OS. You can install Win7, Win8, Win10, however only Win7 has support and drivers to make it run smoothly with Qubes OS, and currently, it only works for Qubes 3.2. and only somewhat on Qubes 4.0 if you transfer an existing Win7 install over from your old Qubes 3.2.
You can also install Android, though, similar to the above, it lacks some development to make the mouse act like a mouse input for touch. Though, installing all these third party OS systems is no issue at all, it works just fine. What is lacking however, is the support for mouse-pointer, screen-size and such things. But if you enjoy the terminal as you said, then some of these things you might be able to fix yourself. And these issues are only stuff you bring in yourself, anything out-of-the-box in Qubes (fedora, debian, whonix) should work just fine.
I haven't tried many types of OS installs, but I believe you can make most Linux systems work on Qubes in similar fashions as to the out-of-the-box if you can build and compile the code yourself with the Qubes tools included. Heck, you can get Ubuntu working, though it's not included by default due to license issues, so you need to do it yourself or find someone that did it unofficially (which is available for Qubes if you look for the unofficially).
AppImages also works just fine on Qubes, both fedora and debian. For example I use AppImage from CollateNote and Wire (the new open source chat application). Works just fine, no problems, just like any other Linux system. It may lack a shortcut in Qubes's menu's, but you can easily make that yourself, it's very straight forward to build a one-liner command for it.
Also I've seen people get docker working too, but it's unofficial stuff as well.
Virtualbox and the likes? I haven't heard or tried on Qubes, but frankly I don't think you'll need it here.
Yuraeitha
oh, I also installed Qubes on a small PC tied to a friends TV. It's waaaaaaay more secure than any Smart-TV you could ever buy.. :') I added some stuff like USB-Remote, and I'm planning to add a wireless numpad to execute pre-programmed commands such as automating alt+space+f for full-screen, switch sound and screen for multiple of TV screens, and stuff like this. Planning to add a hardware key, maybe a Yubi-key, so that whenever leaving the TV/desktop crossover system, is esentially locked-out from tampering. It's straight forward stuff, it doesn't take much to set up. Qubes isn't meant to be used as a Smart-TV, but it actually works quite well. If you're tired of insecure SmartTV's, then this should be a nice add too.
bill...@gmail.com
So, the same thing seems to be true here. The developers of this system have done an amazing job and have a tremendous idea. But you always solve the big easy problems first. I have found that I can use Qubes for about 85% of what I want to do. I can run LibreOffice, analytical programs, compilers, email, and surf the web. Videos work fine out of the box for me.
What doesn't work is the 3D graphics. I'm having an issue with some games, the Blender modeling program, Paraview, and stuff like that. Image processing and image manipulation (e.g. GIMP, Hugin, etc.) all work fine.
That's not a deal killer for me. Currently, I run KDE Neon as my base OS, and it works great -- but I don't pay much attention to security on it. I dual boot with Windows 10 for the PowerPoint thing, and now Qubes (on an external hard drive) for fun and maybe more in the future. I'm slowly moving more and more of my work over to the Qubes installation.
Thinking back to the "old" linux days, it seemed that making linux an OS that you *really* could use for everything took the involvement of some major investors. Linux had been bumping along at about 80% useful until a bunch of major companies decided to start dumping money into development -- and then it jumped to about 95% in just a couple of years. Anyway, that's how I remember it.
My impression is that Qubes is going to be a little like that. The amount of effort and talent it takes to pull off something like that is pretty mind boggling. With linux, you have people in the open source community who have devoted 20 years to some damn little subsystem that nobody really thinks about until they don't work. How long did Eric Raymond work on fetchmail or sed or gpsd?
Personally, I am stunned that the folk here have pulled this off as well as they have. And God bless them for it. But there's an old saw in my business that it's trivial to set up a system that works 80% of the time, easy to make one that works 90% of the time, very, very hard to get to 95%, and almost impossible to get to 99%. What that means to me is that Qubes will likely never be at that 99% as long as the people currently working on it are the sum total of the resources devoted to it. It will just very slowly creep up now that they are dealing with the really hard, really labor intensive small incremental stuff.
However, there's always the chance that a Canonical or Apache or Sun or Oracle will come along and say "Hey, this is a good idea. Let's dump a hundred million bucks into it and see what happens." Then it will move to the next level.
I don't know, of course, but that's the pattern I've seen before. In the meantime, my solution is to use a very easy, but not all that secure, OS for my graphics-intensive stuff, and don't do anything on it that I care about security for. Personally, I use KDE neon because I like KDE, but I'm also a fan of fedora.
The thing about security, though, is that almost all of the linux variants are good "enough" for most things -- as long as you don't do something stupid. Qubes is good because it mitigates the damage when you do stupid stuff, not really because it is this totally different linux. Compartmentalization is great, but if you download apps from "let_me_screw_with_your_computer.com", you will always have problems. And that behavioral stuff is where most problems come from now. Look at the recent arrests of folk on the dark web, or more recently the studies in tracking bitcoin transactions. How was this done? Because people use the same identifiers in the dark web for open transactions. There's no technology that will save you from that kind of thing.
I have also started storing my data on the Qubes side of things, but that requires booting into Qubes, copying to a flash drive, and then booting into KDE neon. Cheap laptops are pretty cheap now, so I'm thinking about dropping $400 into another box and running Qubes on one and KDE neon on the other...
Utility Panel
Wow! @Yuraeitha & @billollib! Can we sticky these responses? I mean, I know this is a a distribution list and not a discussion forum, but daum! Wish I could write responses like yours.
I don't actually have much to add. I use Qubes for everything that I care about. I only use Windows for stuff that I use so seldom that I haven't figured out how to do it in Qubes. Insofar as I'm limited in Qubes, it's on account of my own laziness or real life issues rather than any inherent limitation in the OS. And I'm a total hack-job when it comes to computers in general, Linux, or Qubes OS in particular. How I wish I could take a good course in whatever makes Qubes tick! Alas, I'm just an end-user. Not much more to say. Just love Qubes. Don't need to do much else.
Yuraeitha
Glad to read this, it's always interesting to read others insightful perspective, especially for something so interesting as Qubes OS. Your view is very refreshing, for example the point that it's amazing just how smooth and well Qubes works, when taking into consideration how complex it is, and how many others tend to fail to make good working systems before that. Thinking about what you said, I realized it's also easy to take Qubes for granted on the reliability side of things after having used it for a while, forgetting how cumber-stone some other OS's out there can be.
Yuraeitha
You can do that too :) It's just a matter of keep learning, bit by bit, and you don't need to go all down the rabbit hole, you can gather meta-knowledge, which is what I focus on doing. For as long as you try minimize mistakes and error out wrong assumptions, then meta-knowledge is sufficient for regular users like us who may not have the time or resources to learn deeper more advanced technical stuff. If you learn from reliable people who have much deeper insight, or even peers who seek to learn like us, and keep questioning your own knowledge, then you'll eventually build up more and more meta-knowledge.
Also I write in a very risky way, if you want to do something like that, then you need to take risks, which is a decision you can take. What I mean is, I may be wrong about things here and there, since I don't have a too deep insight into the advanced technological aspects, and without insight meta-knowledge can be easy to mistake or switch with wrong assumptions, because knowledge doesn't stick too well if it's non-deep meta, and one may even make wrong assumptions.
If you keep looking to learn, keep gathering meta-knowledge, and try go a bit deeper whenever possible, keep questioning your insight and knowledge, and never sell yourself short, even with limited time, eventually you will build up meta-knowledge about any topic. After that, just take risk to write about it, and be open minded if someone points out about mistakes :) We learn best from mistakes too, mistakes are the ultimate learner.
Qubes, computer systems, and security for that matter, is quite complex indeed. But while you may not have time or resources to go learn about these in depth, if you learn from the people who have the depth, and give it a year or two, and then look back, even if it was just a hobby, you will have learned quite a lot.
Also a disclaimer, I don't actually know a lot of meta-knowledge here, but I'm more outspoken about what I do know, or think I know. For me this is a journey too, to keep gathering more meta-knowledge, and to error out any mistakes or false assumptions I make during the journey in my free time hobby. It can be a journey for you too, at least I think it can be quite fun as well, thus the 'hobby' part :)
Utility Panel
Matty South
I use Qubes as my primary OS to work 50 hours per week. I do application Penetration Testing full time (White Hat Hacker). I bought a Lenovo Thinkpad specifically for Qubes. I watch Youtube and run lots of VMs. I don't have time to play games and I don't need a lot of graphics acceleration so GPU isn't a problem for me. The OS itself is stable enough that I don't find it a hindrance to getting stuff done. There are small hiccups here and there, but I would say it is about as many bugs as OSX or Windows.
The pain points are:
1) Getting everything installed and set-up the way I like it took a while (mostly because I was learning).
2) No way to share entire desktop over google hangouts or anything like that (you can only do that inside a HVM)
3) Some things appear take a little longer since I am used to doing them insecurely on Windows. (stuff like copy/paste, USB, Video Calls)
All in all, I'm extremely happy with my decision to make the switch. I'd say if you are looking for a new machine anyways, then get a Qubes-compatible one and try it out for 6 months. You can always slap an insecure OS on there if you don't like it.
StefanUrkel .
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Tim W
Cheers.
Tim
Yuraeitha
> btw, is upgrading an existing Qubes install to a new version pretty much simply downloading the new version and choosing an option for upgrading existing installations? or is it more involved than that or even requires a fresh install?
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> On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 2:20 PM, <lemond...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Without support for hardware acceleration of virtual machines, plus needing specific hardware compatible with Qubes OS, what kinds of work do you get done if Qubes is your main OS on primary PC?
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> I want to run Davinci Resolve, which is a video editor that runs on Linux, but it takes advantage of the discrete GPU, and it seems Qubes does not support hardware acceleration nor virtual machines.
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> So, I'm curious, for those who use Qubes, what actual work do you get done?
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> I've also tried playing youtube videos but found audio out of sync and I could not resize or maximize the playback window.
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> I may have tried the second to latest version released so maybe things have changed or will change in 4.x?
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> Not being able to run VMs, Davinci Resolve, or youtube are making me have to look at other options like OS X, Windows 10, and Linux.
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> I was leaning towards OS X but enabling case sensitivity for the file system can break certain apps like those from Adobe, or cause other problems.. And I prefer linux/unix like command-lines to DOS, so kind of leaning away from Windows 10.
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> That leaves Linux distros like Debian, Mint, e bv But I'm wondering how secure it will be compared to Qubes?
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But yes,
RC-2 to RC-3,
RC-3 to RC-4,
and
RC-2 to RC-4,
should all be good paths to take.
But stay clear of RC-1, the developers recommend a re-install between RC-1 and RC-2.
alexc...@gmail.com
I use it for all kinds of things, personal use like forums, darnet, etc. I also have a Kali HVM that connects straight to the wifi device only bypassing sys-net. I run only dom0 and my Kali HVM when in use. Even tho I have template VMs, my run VMs have allot of customizations to I did not want to include in the template. I've gotten in the habit of running duplicates and burning them after a couple uses then making another and so on.
When 4 final is released and there is a pack for full support of a Windows 10/Server 2016 HVM, I'mm for sure be doing that as well. I do have a Windows 7 HVM now for the VERY few apps that there are not Linux variants of, but I only need that like 1% of the time.
andrew.t...@gmail.com
elizzz...@gmail.com
nickaz nickaz
Hi alexc
Catacombs
nickaz nickaz
Daniil Travnikov
unman
Yes, under Qubes all the Thinkpads I've seen run hotter with lower
battery life than a standard distro. With coreboot worse again.
This x230 with 9cell battery gives me 4-5 hours, well tuned.
prei...@gmail.com
I know that this is kinda off topic. But what about Battery Runtime in your laptops? I mean is it the same in Qubes like in any other OS?I am asking because my laptop working in Ubuntu about 5 hours, but in Qubes only 1 hour. On any version till the last one - I started use it from 3.2.1.
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installing powertop in dom0 may help. (sudo qubes-dom0-update powertop)