Possible to get usable Win7 gui?

[Jarle Thorsen]

Currently my Windows 7 StandaloneVM feels a bit sluggish.

Moving windows (no phun intended) is a pain.

Is it possible to have a Windows VM without any lag, or is this just a part of the deal with Qubes OS?

What tweaks should I do to get my Windows VM as responsive as possible?

I have no problems with lag in dom0 or any of the Linux VMs.

My display is 2560x1440, maybe a large display is part of my problem?

[Grzesiek Chodzicki]

VM Performance is largely dependent on the CPU and RAM so ensure that your Windows VM has enough vCPUs and RAM assigned to it.

[Jarle Thorsen]

Throwing more vCPUs and RAM at it hasn't made a big difference so far, but I'm moving my system to a way more powerful system the next couple of days, hope that will make a difference.

Can anybody please confirm that it is indeed possible to have a lag-free Windows experience under QubesOS?

[Jeremy Rand]

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Jarle Thorsen:

My Windows 7 and Windows 10 VM's feel reasonably responsive for
getting work done (although I definitely wouldn't want to try gaming
with that level of latency). My dom0 resolution is larger than yours;
I haven't adjusted the default resolution in the Windows VM's.

The Windows VM's have between 2 GB and 4 GB of RAM and 2 CPU logical
cores; I'm on a Haswell i7.

Cheers,
- -Jeremy
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[Robert Fisk]

I run a Win7 VM on a i5 gen 4 ULV machine. I have always had problems
with lag increasing over time. On bootup the VM is fast, but after 20
min it is unusable with each screen redraw taking ~4 sec and associated
high CPU usage. This has happened both on R3.0 and R3.2.

I work around the issue by using Remmina (or other RDP client) in an
appVM, and allowing IP forwarding in the firewall vm. This solution does
not suffer from increasing lag, and should be usable for everything
except gaming. See instructions here:

https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/firewall/


Regards,
Robert

[Jeremy Rand]

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Robert Fisk:

I'm curious, are you using Qubes Windows Tools in that VM? My Windows
VM's do not have Qubes Windows Tools. (I'm trying to figure out what
might explain why you've run into this issue and I haven't.)

Cheers,
- -Jeremy
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[Tai...@gmx.com]

Windows post-XP needs at least 2d acceleration for a quality desktop
environment experience especially at those high resolutions, you will
need to assign a secondary graphics card or at least an emulated device
which has better performance and more VRAM such as QXL/spice (but that a
is security problem on qubes, better to just assign 2ndry gfx card)

[Jarle Thorsen]

> My Windows 7 and Windows 10 VM's feel reasonably responsive for
> getting work done (although I definitely wouldn't want to try gaming
> with that level of latency). My dom0 resolution is larger than yours;
> I haven't adjusted the default resolution in the Windows VM's.
>
> The Windows VM's have between 2 GB and 4 GB of RAM and 2 CPU logical
> cores; I'm on a Haswell i7.

Thank you for your feedback. I find that seamless mode works better than normal desktop mode.

[Jarle Thorsen]

Robert Fisk:

> I run a Win7 VM on a i5 gen 4 ULV machine. I have always had problems
> with lag increasing over time. On bootup the VM is fast, but after 20
> min it is unusable with each screen redraw taking ~4 sec and associated
> high CPU usage. This has happened both on R3.0 and R3.2.
>
> I work around the issue by using Remmina (or other RDP client) in an
> appVM, and allowing IP forwarding in the firewall vm. This solution does
> not suffer from increasing lag, and should be usable for everything
> except gaming. See instructions here:

Only problem with this solution is that it does not give you the advantage of seamless-mode I guess?

[Robert Fisk]

> -Jeremy
>

Yes I have QWT installed in the VM, however I guess the problem is
somewhere else: I only notice the problem when using Adobe applications.
These have custom button and toolbar styles presumably drawn with weird
custom Adobe code. As time passes these toolbars redraw slower and
slower, to the point where you can see each new UI element appear in a
tedious ripple across the screen.

I can't remember if restarting the application in question fixes the
problem, or whether a VM reboot was required. But using RDP allows me to
get on with the work, which is all I really care about!

Regards,
Robert

[Jarle Thorsen]

søndag 1. januar 2017 21.17.39 UTC+1 skrev Robert Fisk følgende:
> > Can anybody please confirm that it is indeed possible to have a lag-free Windows experience under QubesOS?
> >

> I work around the issue by using Remmina (or other RDP client) in an
> appVM, and allowing IP forwarding in the firewall vm. This solution does
> not suffer from increasing lag, and should be usable for everything
> except gaming.

After struggling with a very slow Win7 for a while (after pressing a mouse button there would be apx 1 second delay before any response from the GUI, moving/resizing windows was a drag) I finally tested RDP connection from a Fedora VM running Remmina:

WOW! Now everything is snappy and usable again!

Any idea what might cause the normal Windows HVM GUI to be so slow in comparison?

Windows tools (latest version) is installed.

[raah...@gmail.com]

hmm weird, my windows 7 vm is a little laggy, but I figured its normal. it doesn't increase over time for me and doesn't seem that bad. Have you tried to set the windows system setting to performance mode?

If you try to do gpu intensive tasks it might be an issue though.

[Jarle Thorsen]

 <raah...@gmail.com>:

hmm weird,  my windows 7 vm is a little laggy,  but I figured its normal.   it doesn't increase over time for me and doesn't seem that bad.  Have you tried to set the windows system setting to performance mode?

If you try to do gpu intensive tasks it might be an issue though.

The only Windows version I have tried is Windows 7 Enterprise 64-bit, with all default settings apart from installing Qubes Windows tools.
Tried this HVM on both a "normal" system and a performance system with *plenty* of resources. Assigning the win 7 HVM 16 vcpu and 10GB RAM makes no difference 🙁

I do not see any increase in lag over time though, as observed by Robert.

Maybe I'll try a different version of Windows just to be sure...

[cez...@gmail.com]

"Is it possible to have a Windows VM without any lag".

Yes, I can confirm that it is possible. I run Windows 7 completely lag free on Qubes OS, it feels very snappy and instant, just as if it was running bare metal. Both with or without seamless mode.

I've installed Qubes Windows Manager completely according to the official Qubes guidelines.

My setup that runs Win7 smoothly
- QVM instance: Windows 7 64-bit
- CPU: i5 6500 3.2GHz (default set to two cores).
- Total system RAM: 24GB
- QVM Win7 memory allocation: 5GB.
- Disc allocation: 100GB (Make sure Windows has plenty free space).
- Graphics: Intel HD Graphics 530 (CPU integrated graphics)
- Triple monitor setup, all controlled by Intel integrated graphics (HDMI/HDMI/VGA).
- Seamless mode, sometimes on, sometimes off.

In case you use VGA monitors, then VGA monitor in my case causes some issues that impacts screen tearing a bit if used together with HDMI, only a slight second when moving app between screens. It is slightly annoying though, and I haven't looked into that yet. Though just be aware that VGA monitors might not play too well with HDMI/Display monitors, in case you use a setup like that.

You don't need 24GB memory, i.e. I got more than plenty, you will be fine with less. How much is a good guess though, I would say total system 8k GB memory is fine (Qubes 4k, Windows 4k each is fine for normal use), just don't open too many memory hungry VM's at the same time.

My CPU and its integrated graphics isn't top notch, but not all bad either, so if your system is anywhere near these specs, it is probably a software/driver/Bios-setting issue and not hardware performance related.

I found in my early Qubes days that Nvidia with the nouveau driver was laggy as hell, to put it mildly. My nvidia GPU that I first ran Qubes on was GTX1060, which is now retired from my Qubes setup. The GTX 1060 with nouveau ran though, barely. It was by no means smooth, neither in Dom0 or any QVM's, one big hell of lag. Some older graphic cards than 1060 might do better with the nouveau drivers, but the newer the card the less perfect it will likely run in Qubes (i.e. might be the case in your situation). The moment I took out my monitors from my nvidia card and instead plugged them to my motherboard internal graphics, I became completely lag free, and everything was really smooth (Shutdown Qubes first, so it can boot proper graphic drivers). I get stressed by lag, so I can definitely say that the contrast was big to when I used nvidia, I feel nothing now with Intel graphics, it's smooth. As many has said before with Qubes, Intel or many of the AMD graphics, just works. Nvidia with their monopolistic product designs is a big pain in the *** as they try to shove their market fragmented profit maximized proprietary garbage down our throats... *ahem*... we lack competition (Go AMD!).

Anyway, In Bios, in case you have such a setting, then make sure to check if on-board graphics are set to CPU, and not GPU. Furthermore be vary of any "shared" memory features between CPU/GPU in the BIOS, when I turned mine on it made Qubes's graphics teary and really laggy. This might hypothetically be more or less laggy depending on the hardware used, make sure to test the difference by turning it off if you got it on.

So if you got multiple graphic cards, this may be a source to your problems, especially if it is nvidia. If you are dual-booting (despite that it isn't the best to do in terms of security), then you can still make use of your nvidia card in other OS's, i.e. Windows should still detect your nvidia card. If you are running it on a desktop instead of a laptop, then you can use a KVM switch to switch between CPU/GPU graphic cards as you dual boot.

Qubes OS doesn't need heavy graphics anyhow, not as long as heavy graphics industry users, or gamers, isn't a supported audience target group by the Qubes developers.

Off-topic: However it has me puzzled why nothing more hasn't been done to support heavy graphics, it would make many more potential users interested in Qubes OS if it was possible to run heavy graphics on Qubes, such as games. Perhaps the security issue it creates is just too big and unfix-able or time consuming *shrugh*

Lagging (pun intended ;) a bit info on your hardware setup, so I took the liberty to make guesses. I hope any of this was of help to you, I had a laggy Qubes too before I found the proper setup (i.e. ditching my nvidia card).

P.s. if you haven't tried already, try experiment and reduce the resolution to something less, see if it makes any difference.

[Drew White]

To give you a rough breakdown...

3.2.1.3 was working but they broke 3.2.2.3.

I have not received an update for Qubes Windows Tools yet.
I would recommend you go back to verson 3.2.1.3 if that isn't what is installed.

As for your resolution, it does make a difference with the way Qubes is designed, and it does affect things. However the lag in it isn't because of your resolution. I run multiple monitora in 1920 x 1080 and 1600x900 mode and I have no issue with 3.2.1.3 and lag like in 3.2.2.3.

Every time I post letting them know there is an issue, or to find if there is a workaround, it gets ignored. So, in relation to Windows, I can only guess that they just don't have enough time to assess all the critical bugs before they release an update, and they can't get it updated fast enough to please everyone.

So the critical bugs stay on the back burner while they sort out the tiny small ones until they can get the larger ones sorted out.

If you are having great issue with it, uninstall the tools, and do NOT install the video driver. Then you will have no issue with the latest version. No seamless mode, but it will run just fine with 2 threads and 4 GB RAM with ease. You can even have Win7 at 1 thread and 2 GB RAM if you so want.

[raah...@gmail.com]

I use the qubes windows tools maybe that would help.

[Jarle Thorsen]

> hmm weird, my windows 7 vm is a little laggy, but I figured its normal. it doesn't increase over time for me and doesn't seem that bad. Have you tried to set the windows system setting to performance mode?
>
> If you try to do gpu intensive tasks it might be an issue though.

My system settings is already at performance mode, no GPU intensive tasks. Just moving windows on the screen is a pain...

[Jarle Thorsen]

> "Is it possible to have a Windows VM without any lag".
>
> Yes, I can confirm that it is possible. I run Windows 7 completely lag free on Qubes OS, it feels very snappy and instant, just as if it was running bare metal. Both with or without seamless mode.
>
> I've installed Qubes Windows Manager completely according to the official Qubes guidelines.
>
> My setup that runs Win7 smoothly
> - QVM instance: Windows 7 64-bit
> - CPU: i5 6500 3.2GHz (default set to two cores).
> - Total system RAM: 24GB
> - QVM Win7 memory allocation: 5GB.
> - Disc allocation: 100GB (Make sure Windows has plenty free space).
> - Graphics: Intel HD Graphics 530 (CPU integrated graphics)
> - Triple monitor setup, all controlled by Intel integrated graphics (HDMI/HDMI/VGA).
> - Seamless mode, sometimes on, sometimes off.
>
> In case you use VGA monitors, then VGA monitor in my case causes some issues that impacts screen tearing a bit if used together with HDMI, only a slight second when moving app between screens. It is slightly annoying though, and I haven't looked into that yet. Though just be aware that VGA monitors might not play too well with HDMI/Display monitors, in case you use a setup like that.
>
> You don't need 24GB memory, i.e. I got more than plenty, you will be fine with less. How much is a good guess though, I would say total system 8k GB memory is fine (Qubes 4k, Windows 4k each is fine for normal use), just don't open too many memory hungry VM's at the same time.
>
> My CPU and its integrated graphics isn't top notch, but not all bad either, so if your system is anywhere near these specs, it is probably a software/driver/Bios-setting issue and not hardware performance related.
>
> I found in my early Qubes days that Nvidia with the nouveau driver was laggy as hell, to put it mildly. My nvidia GPU that I first ran Qubes on was GTX1060, which is now retired from my Qubes setup. The GTX 1060 with nouveau ran though, barely. It was by no means smooth, neither in Dom0 or any QVM's, one big hell of lag. Some older graphic cards than 1060 might do better with the nouveau drivers, but the newer the card the less perfect it will likely run in Qubes (i.e. might be the case in your situation). The moment I took out my monitors from my nvidia card and instead plugged them to my motherboard internal graphics, I became completely lag free, and everything was really smooth (Shutdown Qubes first, so it can boot proper graphic drivers). I get stressed by lag, so I can definitely say that the contrast was big to when I used nvidia, I feel nothing now with Intel graphics, it's smooth. As many has said before with Qubes, Intel or many of the AMD graphics, just works. Nvidia with their monopolistic product designs is a big pain in the *** as they try to shove their market fragmented profit maximized proprietary garbage down our throats... *ahem*... we lack competition (Go AMD!).
>
> Anyway, In Bios, in case you have such a setting, then make sure to check if on-board graphics are set to CPU, and not GPU. Furthermore be vary of any "shared" memory features between CPU/GPU in the BIOS, when I turned mine on it made Qubes's graphics teary and really laggy. This might hypothetically be more or less laggy depending on the hardware used, make sure to test the difference by turning it off if you got it on.
>
> So if you got multiple graphic cards, this may be a source to your problems, especially if it is nvidia. If you are dual-booting (despite that it isn't the best to do in terms of security), then you can still make use of your nvidia card in other OS's, i.e. Windows should still detect your nvidia card. If you are running it on a desktop instead of a laptop, then you can use a KVM switch to switch between CPU/GPU graphic cards as you dual boot.
>
> Qubes OS doesn't need heavy graphics anyhow, not as long as heavy graphics industry users, or gamers, isn't a supported audience target group by the Qubes developers.
>
> Off-topic: However it has me puzzled why nothing more hasn't been done to support heavy graphics, it would make many more potential users interested in Qubes OS if it was possible to run heavy graphics on Qubes, such as games. Perhaps the security issue it creates is just too big and unfix-able or time consuming *shrugh*
>
> Lagging (pun intended ;) a bit info on your hardware setup, so I took the liberty to make guesses. I hope any of this was of help to you, I had a laggy Qubes too before I found the proper setup (i.e. ditching my nvidia card).
>
> P.s. if you haven't tried already, try experiment and reduce the resolution to something less, see if it makes any difference.

Thank you very much for your very thorough answer!

OK, I'll add some more info about my HW:

I have a Dell workstation with 2 x Xeon E5-2687W CPUs with a total of 16 physical cores, and 64GB RAM. My win7 HVM now has 150GB disk, 10GB RAM and 16vcpus. (I have tried smaller numbers for all settings)

I realize that my problem may be nvidia-related (Noveau). I have tried running on Nvidia Quadro K2000 (had problems getting full res on both displays), so I switched to the Nvidia GeForce GTX 260 which I'm running now. (using Noveau on both cards)

During the install of the HVM I had to make a temp change of video driver setting as described here: https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2488 but this is now changed back to xen. Not sure of this is related to my problem.

As my other VMs and dom0 is nice and snappy, I would think this is not a general driver related, but only related to my HVM settings? I'm leaning towards Windows tools maybe?

[Jarle Thorsen]

I have now found this problem to be deeply connected to the installation of qubes-windows-tools, I have started a new thread here: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/qubes-users/GVVKvG1b7a4/gbFyGUlrDgAJ

[mathde...@gmail.com]

Hello,

> I work around the issue by using Remmina (or other RDP client) in an
> appVM, and allowing IP forwarding in the firewall vm. This solution does
> not suffer from increasing lag, and should be usable for everything
> except gaming. See instructions here:
>

Remmina indeed seems to make this problem go away.

So, I've tried the following which also seems to improve the performance: disable **all** visual effects (effectively the same thing RDP is doing I think):

Right click computer -> Properties -> Advanced System Settings -> Advanced Tab -> Performance (Settings button) -> Adjust for best performance.

Cya,
Matheus.