Responding to the Whonix trolls...

[cooloutac]

After posting on Qubes-Users about my experience with whonix and Patrick. TO voice my #metoo. I got a notice in my email inbox he responded to my old thread. https://forums.whonix.org/t/forward-and-reverse-dns-dont-match-up/2147 I replied I don't trust whonix because of him. and he told me to "FUCK OFF"

After that I saw another notice in my email from some other troll, and Patrick dedicated a whole thread to it. While cowardly banning me so I couldn't respond. Lets see if he posts it... https://forums.whonix.org/t/concern-trolling/6883

So here is my response to TorGroupie here:

First Patrick trolled me to get me to post on his forums again. And now you are crawling out from under the bridge knowing I will respond. Can't get enough of me here?

Yes I use windows 10 for gaming and entertainment. But I use Qubes for other things. My mother uses Qubes as her mainstay does that count? She is not even that computer literate which probably pisses off an inferiority complex nerd like yourself. Anybody can use it. That's the beauty of it. Even though some were trying to make Qubes 4 harder to use, the community responded to make it user friendly again.

I respond to people asking for opinions or help on the Qubes forums. I keep things simple and don't respond to anything I haven't experienced myself. and I dislike rude people who can dish it but can't take it. I find that suspect. Patrick was afraid to troll me on the google mailing list too. no problem. Thats why i love that Qubes chose google. Keeps the trolls out!!

1. Security and anonymity are two diff things. Qubes was geared for home desktop users. Which a common daily task would be logging into personal accounts and keeping data. Hiding my location is something I have no need for. It has some minor benfits like avoiding someone targeting qubes users with bad updates form upstream source, but I always find whonix problematic when it comes to updating. This should be common sense and simple to understand. Unless of course you are trolling....

2. The explanation for why Whonix doesn't have a canary is a poor one to me. And like I said, to claim laws are not same in certain countries but while at same time claiming US laws affect everywhere is contradictory. And I find having no canary suspect. If you don't like that , that's your problem. I explained other reasons why as well and you seem to have no retort to it. Except to troll my character which is typical troll behavior.

3. Security in general is hard. And anonymity is even harder especially if you want a life. For home desktop a more practical solution would be a good vpn. But you would have better anonymity using tails on disposable disk.

4. An example of how tor is so dangerous to use is how many MITM attempts will be made against you when simply updating whonix, simply because you are using tor. Something I've learned when using it when Andrew Wong pointed it out to me. Patrick himself on the Qubes forums states he can't account for security of tor node servers. Which lets face it are probably run by alot of shady people. Or how bout how you would be putting yourself on the governments radar and suspicion just for using it. I'm not even talking about the dark web... Which is a criminal barbarian haven you'd most likely become a victim of by visiting.

5. You are repeating yourself here. Yes its extremely hard. Everyone in the field knows that. You should probably just change your name to TorGroupie. Since you don't really seem to have any experience with anything except trolling. You wouldn't know if you were compromised if something crawled up your ass. I accept the fact I'm compromised. Joanna herself claims noone can tell if they are.

6. And Patrick isn't emotional? He just told me to "FUCK OFF" lol. Hes the typical linux snob. The type of elitist troll you find in a linux irc chatroom. The type to take the time to belittle me while at the same time hypocritically claiming he has no time to answer my question. He must of grew up and been raised by irc chatrooms. You can tell the difference with invisible things labs, and its one of the things I like about them.

And no wonder qubes-whonix left the project. I would of left too. Patrick seems to have other priorities then security and performance of Whonix. I bet with a little research on him I could figure out his other agendas easily. Come try me we can go there.

And hey TorGroupie, why don't you go "FUCK OFF" too. Try this one on for size. Tor is so painfully slow that If you are not fearing for your life or fearing imprisonment. You're a selfish prick who might be getting someone else killed using its bandwidth...

Keep pretending you're special by sticking it to the ad agencies. I do dislike in your face ads on webpages which are security risks in themselves. But if it weren't for ads and trackers we would of never had tv and probalby wouldn't have an internet. We wouldn't have this very google mailing list. Which keeps the trolls under their rocks!!

Come troll me here, don't be scared of the google. Or are they restricting your shady tor node...

[cooloutac]

lol I knew it. My post magically appeared on this forums now... The guy is predictable. That's no way to be anonymous...

[Achim Patzner]

On 20190227 at 22:30 -0800 cooloutac wrote:

Whenever I accidentally read a posting by raahelps@ I'm wondering what
crime we committed to have to bear something like this and what could
be done to avoid attracting people like that...

Do us all a favor and go troll somewhere else.


Achim

[unman]

I dont think this is helpful
Please consider the guidelines and be respectful and polite to others.
None of these accusations of trolling help build the commmunity, or
advance Qubes.

[cooloutac]

unman is one of the reasons I don't trust Qubes as much. FYI... for the same reasons as Patrick.

[cooloutac]

I'm banned again on whonix. And now Patrick says on there he never told me to fuck off. And look now he corrected my grammar. More proof he grew up confused and was raised by irc 4chan trolls. Which is ironic, because most of them are opposite of his main agenda. In essence he is a tool against himself.

But its confirmed the guy is a fraud.

Qubes could of been great. But there is too many fakes on the project for it to become more popular. Its sort of like how linux users prefer noone uses linux, so they can feel special for using it. Its probably why qubes-whonix left Patrick.

IMO using whonix is a security risk. I always felt that way cause of how buggy it was. But now you couldn't pay me to use it due to who maintains it.

And people like unman are just as bad. He is here to undo man lol.

IF we look back. All our systems got borked and Qubes started becoming less user friendly, After Unman started posting and being rude to people. Before Joanna's blog and paranoid mode came out.

Awoked is a good guy though. But unman is actually a dev..... its sad.

What alot of security professionals don't understand is 90% of compromises are from social engineering or inside jobs.

[Achim Patzner]

On 28.02.2019 15:10:21, "unman" <un...@thirdeyesecurity.org> wrote:

On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 11:03:12AM +0100, Achim Patzner wrote:

On 20190227 at 22:30 -0800 cooloutac wrote:

 

Whenever I accidentally read a posting by raahelps@ I'm wondering what

crime we committed to have to bear something like this and what could

be done to avoid attracting people like that...

 

Do us all a favour and go troll somewhere else

I don't think this is helpful

I guess I'm of a different opinion in that case. Sometimes someone has to speak up and draw a line in the sand.

Please consider the guidelines and be respectful and polite to others.

Unlike others I strongly believe that respect has to be earned and it can be retracted. The user in question spent nearly all his time on this mailing list. And _none_ of his postings ever enriched any discussion.

Keep in mind that "a wise man changes his mind, a fool never will" just means the fools will win in the end.

None of these accusations of trolling help build the community, or

advance Qubes.

In that case I would like to demand a vote (of exclusion of certain users) as this is building a community I wouldn't want to be a part of. I can understand why he is not welcome on the whonix lists anymore. And I strongly believe it should be the same here. I guess we will need a management decision on that point.

Achim

[cooloutac]

I saw another user complain about patricks behavior. I commented to say I've experience the same thing so that user did not feel alone.

Then I responded to the notice in my email that Patrick posted on whonix forums. Then he hurls a profanity at me. Which has now been deleted and he denies. And now I'm banned so I can't respond.

I was the one first called a troll. I was the one being badmouthed. I'm not gonna let him ban me and hide like a coward.

His character is definitely related to the integrity of Qubes. If he has none, how can we expect his project to have some?

I've stated my opinions and experiences with the whonix qube and tor. And If you don't like them state your case. Rather then try to censor me like a nazi...

[cooloutac]

Or is this a slick way to try and get me to use tor. Because we know evading bans is one of the things its most known for lol... Oh wait. Google probably already bans tor, which is why this place has been so troll free for the years I've been posting here.

Maybe you should start a German forum on some other platform and then you can all go there. Rather then make even more people complicit in patricks drama.

[unman]

On Fri, Mar 01, 2019 at 07:27:08PM +0000, Achim Patzner wrote:
> On 28.02.2019 15:10:21, "unman" <un...@thirdeyesecurity.org> wrote:
>
>
> > On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 11:03:12AM +0100, Achim Patzner wrote:
> > > On 20190227 at 22:30 -0800 cooloutac wrote:
> > >
> > > Whenever I accidentally read a posting by raahelps@ I'm wondering what
> > > crime we committed to have to bear something like this and what could
> > > be done to avoid attracting people like that...
> > >
> > > Do us all a favour and go troll somewhere else
> > I don't think this is helpful
>
> I guess I'm of a different opinion in that case. Sometimes someone has to
> speak up and draw a line in the sand.

All you are doing is perpetuating the problem.

>
> > Please consider the guidelines and be respectful and polite to others.
>
> Unlike others I strongly believe that respect has to be earned and it can be
> retracted. The user in question spent nearly all his time on this mailing
> list. And _none_ of his postings ever enriched any discussion.

I don't agree. I have my own problems with that user, but he has in the
past provided help on the list, and will do in the future.

>
> Keep in mind that "a wise man changes his mind, a fool never will" just
> means the fools will win in the end.
>
> > None of these accusations of trolling help build the community, or
> > advance Qubes.
>
> In that case I would like to demand a vote (of exclusion of certain users)
> as this is building a community I wouldn't want to be a part of. I can
> understand why he is not welcome on the whonix lists anymore. And I strongly
> believe it should be the same here. I guess we will need a management
> decision on that point.
>
>
> Achim

I don't want a list that is banning people or excluding them. It's
regrettable that Whonix does so. In my experience, that rarely works
given the ready availability of new email addresses.
If you don't like a user, just add them to your kill file.
Build the community that *you* want, by promoting the issues/discussions
that are of value. Let the others wither away.
Credit readers with the sense to decide who is worth listening to.

unman

[haaber]

>
> I don't want a list that is banning people or excluding them. It's
> regrettable that Whonix does so. In my experience, that rarely works
> given the ready availability of new email addresses.
> If you don't like a user, just add them to your kill file.
> Build the community that *you* want, by promoting the issues/discussions
> that are of value. Let the others wither away.
> Credit readers with the sense to decide who is worth listening to.
>
> unman
>

I'd second unman. Several times I have had some precious help by
raahelps. The strength of a group comea from the fact that even if
sometimes, someone gets mad, there is someone else who is willing to
listen. Building closed subcommunities actually weakens the whole project.

Be kind to people who are angry, they need it most : If you can't stand
it (I can understand that), better filter mails that contain swear
words: that is more efficient than banning emails and allows anyone to
come back to the group after he/she went mad for whatsoever reason.
Bernhard

[cooloutac]

Ty Bernhard. I just don't like when people are rude to those asking for help. And yes you are correct I always have issues going on...

And to others I know I'm not a technical guy. Thats why I would never post on Qubes-devel. I'm just the average user.

[Achim Patzner]

On 02.03.2019 03:21:14, "unman" <un...@thirdeyesecurity.org> wrote:
>I don't want a list that is banning people or excluding them. It's
>regrettable that Whonix does so. In my experience, that rarely works
>given the ready availability of new email addresses.

That's why I like mailing lists which require a sponsor to add you and
which will hold said sponsor responsible for the behaviour of his
invitees. If you bring in too many duds. you're getting thrown out, too.

>If you don't like a user, just add them to your kill file.

As long as there are no really useful tools that eliminate everything
that contains quotes of the user you don't really need in your life this
is not as helpful as eliminating that user completely. Unless said kill
file is the input queue of a skilled assassin...

>Build the community that *you* want, by promoting the issues/discussions
>that are of value. Let the others wither away.

Some trolls don't wither on their own. Those have to be cut back.


Achim

[cooloutac]

Stop being a nazi.

I already gave you the link for qubes-devel.

[799]

cooloutac <raah...@gmail.com> schrieb am Sa., 2. März 2019, 22:16:

[...]
Stop being a nazi.

Please don't write such quotes in a public forum, as someone who might argue that he wants to silence the discussion (which don't have to be ok) is something completely different from someone who was involved in something like the holocaust.

Making such a comparison is totally unacceptable.

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"

(...) that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds, the point at which effectively the discussion or thread often ends.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

And no, I will not refresh the discussion at this point as it is not Qubes related (anymore).

- O

[cooloutac]

It's not very different than fascism, in particular the Gestapo, who would use those in the community to censor people through fear of being marginalized.

I'll stop discussing this if you will.

[Andrew David Wong]

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All,

Please keep discussions on-topic, and please follow our discussion
list guidelines and Code of Conduct:

https://www.qubes-os.org/support/#discussion-list-guidelines
https://www.qubes-os.org/code-of-conduct/

- --
Andrew David Wong (Axon)
Community Manager, Qubes OS
https://www.qubes-os.org

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[Achim Patzner]

On 20190303 at 13:15 -0600 Andrew David Wong wrote:
> https://www.qubes-os.org/code-of-conduct/

So what will you do to correct the fact of a member of the mailing list
labeling me as "nazi" and "Gestapo"?

I would like to see something else besides pointing towards the code of
conduct unless you want to prove that it is totally useless to protect
anyone and not worth the electrons used to store it.


Achim

[haaber]

So "nazi" is offending to you. I would feel the same (especially since I
am German). Maybe "troll" is also offending to others, since it means
more or less "I am in possession of the truth, you are wrong, stupid and
better shut up". Your posts here seem equally angry as those of
raahelps, with the difference that your offences are better hidden by
"respecting the form" ...

So the reminder of Andrew to stick to the rules goes *ALSO* to you !
And to me, since I did answer to your non-qubes subject. Sorry for that,
Andrew!

[Tai...@gmx.com]

On 03/01/2019 09:21 PM, unman wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 01, 2019 at 07:27:08PM +0000, Achim Patzner wrote:
>> On 28.02.2019 15:10:21, "unman" <un...@thirdeyesecurity.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 11:03:12AM +0100, Achim Patzner wrote:
>>>> On 20190227 at 22:30 -0800 cooloutac wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Whenever I accidentally read a posting by raahelps@ I'm wondering what
>>>> crime we committed to have to bear something like this and what could
>>>> be done to avoid attracting people like that...
>>>>
>>>> Do us all a favour and go troll somewhere else
>>> I don't think this is helpful
>>
>> I guess I'm of a different opinion in that case. Sometimes someone has to
>> speak up and draw a line in the sand.
>
> All you are doing is perpetuating the problem.
>
>>
>>> Please consider the guidelines and be respectful and polite to others.
>>
>> Unlike others I strongly believe that respect has to be earned and it can be
>> retracted. The user in question spent nearly all his time on this mailing
>> list. And _none_ of his postings ever enriched any discussion.
>
> I don't agree. I have my own problems with that user, but he has in the
> past provided help on the list, and will do in the future.

His "help" is always terrible and potentially dangerous for people who
security is a life and death matter such as journalist in a third world
country and when someone provides constructive criticism he freaks out
and sends them 5 replies.

I hate elitist places that are almost dead because they wish to exclude
people but you gotta have standards.

On 03/03/2019 04:01 AM, cooloutac wrote:
> It's not very different than fascism, in particular the Gestapo,

Yay godwins law.

If it really was like that you'd be on the train to siberia by now.