A really sad thing indeed, and irritating, but in the end it boils down to "just ignore".
The technical nature of a mailing list does not allow "banning", in some cases, not even "moderation". Even if messages are erased from groups.google.com, everyone has a copy already. In a controlled environment where you could determine whether people are able to read some messages, that would be possible. But given the circumstances, that's not an option.
That said, there is another problem. When you censor people that has a strong opinion (not saying it's right or wrong), they get upset and usually start promoting even more of the same agenda. So when you say someone is wrong and should shut up, what you are really doing is telling them that they should continue making their point again and again and in so many ways until it's spammed everywhere and there's no way that anyone doesn't see it.
In this given context, whenever you fight back anything you don't agree with, the subject will almost always presume that "you didn't get it" and will flame you with all kinds of different ways of saying the very same thing, until you admit he's right.
My experience shows that there are other ways of achieving victory in a ideological fight than to elect a operational system mailing list as a stage, but don't get my word, I recommend anyone to try and see for itself ;)
I don't think the point of moderation is preventing any possibility of copies. That sounds like a red herring.
If antisocial attitudes start propagating on the list, then curtail it. Don't let newcomers wonder whether the project managers condone those messages. That is toxic.
> In a controlled environment where you could determine whether people are able to read some messages, that would be possible. But given the circumstances, that's not an option.
>
> That said, there is another problem. When you censor people that has a strong opinion (not saying it's right or wrong), they get upset and usually start promoting even more of the same agenda. So when you say someone is wrong and should shut up, what you are really doing is telling them that they should continue making their point again and again and in so many ways until it's spammed everywhere and there's no way that anyone doesn't see it.
Making it all about them and their feelings means being held hostage to their sentiments. But if they feel strongly, they're going to also feel entitled to do it everywhere when no one calles them out for their abuse.
> In this given context, whenever you fight back anything you don't agree with, the subject will almost always presume that "you didn't get it" and will flame you with all kinds of different ways of saying the very same thing, until you admit he's right.
In my experience, this kind of free-wheeling attitude usually only applies to abuse from privileged viewpoints and serves to enlarge their sense of entitlement. When the abuse goes in the other direction, however, there isn't even a discussion and action is taken.
There is no doubt in my mind that abuse aimed at some other targets would already have been dispatched with at least a note of disapproval.
> My experience shows that there are other ways of achieving victory in a ideological fight than to elect a operational system mailing list as a stage, but don't get my word, I recommend anyone to try and see for itself ;)
You're probably a native English speaker; Even as the digital divide has shrunk, the Anglophone web is still dripping with intolerance coming from straight, white, religious, male hatred that looks down on everyone else. You may also be spending too much time in your activist circles; Skim random videos on Youtube, or comment sections of tech sites...its unavoidable in those venues and flourishes because it receives tacit approval.
And lets not ignore the fact that your post has already served as a segue point to make excuses for the poor misunderstood souls. It would be funny if it didn't make ITL appear comfortable with bigotry.
I don't think those characterizations hold up. A person arriving at this venue will be sensitive to social signals of acceptance or intolerance. They may arrive here from links in the documentation. And it channels important statements from ITL.
The approach advocated here creates a medium for hateful messages to dominate against a background of silence.
>
> > You're probably a native English speaker; Even as the digital divide
> > has shrunk, the Anglophone web is still dripping with intolerance
> > coming from straight, white, religious, male hatred that looks down
> > on everyone else. You may also be spending too much time in your
> > activist circles; Skim random videos on Youtube, or comment sections
> > of tech sites...its unavoidable in those venues and flourishes
> > because it receives tacit approval.
> And yet, people in their right mind should never trust unreliable
> sources. I myself *could* register a dozen gmail accounts and go write
> everywhere on the net about $thing. This does not make it real, and does
> not make it more trustworthy than a thousand pen-marker writings on the
> walls of a train station.
>
> Tacit approval is a problem with verified sources, say books, newspapers
> or journals, and this is exactly why they have an obligation of
> correction by law. If you see a problem with this, it's because you are
> trying to compare very different forms of pubblications.
Not only is this an official forum, referenced by the system documentation and bug tracker, and where messages are often signed... but I find your "go read a book" comment to be a bit too dismissive. So I can start to get an impression where your sympathies lie, because you didn't tell the troll to go somewhere else for answers. (Interesting how easily that attitude couched in erudite language gets twisted against those who speak up.) You're misrepresenting the nature of the medium and making excuses for his outbursts instead. And you said its fine if there is a bias.
This fake position of indifference is really thinly-veiled hostility... If you don't want to hear people complaining about trolls, I suggest YOU go find a book that doesn't exist (the Qubes book) and read it. Don't be an asshole.
I always call it a forum cause I log into google groups webpage. You are right to just ignore is usually best solution.