Could Qubes Installation Configuration Be More User Friendly?

[acr...@gmail.com]

Hi,

This is one of the best OS I have every seen but I haven't gotten a chance to use it yet due to installation issues.

I found that Qubes installation is very difficult.

I do have a notebook comes with Intel + Nvidia GPU and it makes Qubes installation very difficult.

I'm just wondering if there is a plan to make it more user friendly to handle installation issue?

Thanks,
Aaron

[Chris Laprise]

Its more accurate to say that Nvidia hardware is difficult to work with
because they hate (or are afraid of) open source. For this reason, some
operating systems such as Qubes warn against using Nvidia:

https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/system-requirements/

Many computers can disable the Nvidia chip and use the Intel integrated
GPU instead. This can be controlled from the BIOS/firmware settings.

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[Aaron]

Unfortunately I don't have that option in BIOS. There is no way I can disable Nvidia chip.

An average user won't deal with that much complication during installation and this is probably a huge barrier to convert many users from other OS to Qubes.

I hope to see Qubes finding an easy solution for this issue.

[Chris Laprise]

On 3/3/19 2:56 AM, Aaron wrote:
> Unfortunately I don't have that option in BIOS. There is no way I can
> disable Nvidia chip.
>
> An average user won't deal with that much complication during
> installation and this is probably a huge barrier to convert many users
> from other OS to Qubes.
>
> I hope to see Qubes finding an easy solution for this issue.

-
Please post replies to the bottom, not the top.
-

Unfortunately, if Nvidia is secretive and only cooperates fully with
Microsoft, then there is no way to reliably make such complex hardware
'just work'... too much is unknown and left to guessing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia#Open-source_software_support

Its situations like this where people discover that hardware is not some
ideal blank slate, requiring programmers to only put in the right amount
of effort to get satisfactory results. Detailed information about
accessing hardware features is necessary.

And if your laptop maker forces you to use Nvidia then your only option
(for that machine) is to try to troubleshoot the specific compatibility
issues you're experiencing.

Consumers who value open source do have better GPU choices such as AMD
and Intel. They might even contact Nvidia (who are very wealthy BTW) to
ask them to support Linux instead of pretending the onus is on Linux or
Qubes developers.

OTOH, people who don't want to think much about their computers (and
their role as a consumer) or who don't value open source and the goodies
it offers (like Qubes security) can remain comfortable with Nvidia
hardware ...if they go back to Windows.

[Aaron]

I understand. It's definitely frustrating.

I'm definitely new to Qubes, but I'm just wondering... I'm able to install Ubuntu on the 

same machine. I had to install Nvidia driver after Ubuntu installation was done and it 

wasn't a big deal. It took a few mins to handle. At least, I was able to switch to shell (with Ctrl-Alt-F2) 

and install Nvidia drivers at the last stage of the installation, at user login stage.

How does Ubuntu handle a similar issue, at least until hitting the login stage, without any configuration?

Aaron

 

[Sphere]

I believe this is because of a vast difference of manpower and popularity between Ubuntu and Qubes. Also taking into consideration the use-case of Qubes when it comes to popularity.

You see, Operating systems don't really work "magically" on hardware
These operating systems need to have drivers designed and coded in order to establish stable communication between your Hardware and Operating system.

Taking this in mind, yes, for the most part, the general approach is to have a driver for each and every popular hardware that are put into machines and are being utilized by users.

There may be generic drivers but these drivers don't really work universally

So in order to code these drivers, you need a vast amount of manpower
Since Ubuntu is arguably the most popular linux distribution to the general populace and I believe popularity really has alot of influence to the amount of people contributing to the Ubuntu project - contributors who could definitely help in coding these drivers

While I'm not exactly sure if there is a way to make installation seamlessly work on 'any' hardware and only have issues float by Login interface and have access to shell, I sincerely believe that the very reason why installation tends to fail alot is the lack of drivers.

There are a bunch of things you can try to make installation happen like setting nomodeset, acpi=off, and etc.

Alas, if your notebook has an intel CPU then I seriously believe it has Intel HD graphics not unless it's those old ones that don't really have it
It would be great if you have Intel HD graphics cause you can definitely push through installation with nomodeset to avoid utilizing your nvidia GPU

It's not ideal to use that GPU for Qubes anyway, specially when you're looking to make some gaming VM where you would passthrough your Nvidia GPU

[Sphere]

Oh and I must say, Nvidia is a sucker for Open source
Really a huge pain to have their GPU and want to use the KDE desktop REEEEE

[Chris Laprise]

On 3/3/19 11:12 PM, Sphere wrote:
> I believe this is because of a vast difference of manpower and popularity between Ubuntu and Qubes. Also taking into consideration the use-case of Qubes when it comes to popularity.

Even what Ubuntu can do is fairly limited. Have a look at their support
forums... what you'll see is a whole lot of Nvidia troubleshooting
threads. So I believe the difference between Ubuntu and Qubes in this
respect is a matter of degree that may not be so great.

The larger problem is that the relationship between Microsoft and large
hardware vendors gives a false impression that PCs are made of things
that are just made to be "compatible". No - They are made to be
compatible with Windows and a lot of the stuff that's inside is based on
proprietary secrecy. A subset of models promise to be Linux compatible,
but most users don't think to look for these because they labor under
the aforementioned false impression.

But I will say - A system labeled as Linux-compatible is a pretty good
starting point for Qubes. There is no guarantee, but if it means taking
a chance on an unreported make/model then Linux-compatible status
improves your chances that Qubes will work.

[Aaron]

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Let focus on what is possible in terms of a solution to mitigate issues and 

increase conversion.

I think at this point, creating an iso modification script/tool with menu options 

would be a great start.

$ qubes-iso-cfg    -i <original iso file>  -o <modified iso file>

OPTIONS

--------------

1. Disable Nvidia Driver.

2. Enable ....

3. Add <...> config to BOOTX64.CFG

4. ...

Something like that. Menu options could be more specific.

What do you think?

[cooloutac]

I agree with Chris its more a compatibility issue then an installation issue.

You really have to research the machine on linux before using it in Qubes. And have to make sure the bios has the nescessary options before purchase, which is one of the things Qubes docs suggest doing.

And disable security features to make a system compatible might defeat the purpose of using Qubes.

What model laptop do you have that you can't disable the nvidia gpu? You sure it has an onboard one to use in its place?

[awokd]

Aaron:

> Let focus on what is possible in terms of a solution to mitigate issues and
> increase conversion.
>
> I think at this point, creating an iso modification script/tool with menu
> options
> would be a great start.
>
> $ qubes-iso-cfg -i <original iso file> -o <modified iso file>
>
> OPTIONS
> --------------
> 1. Disable Nvidia Driver.
> 2. Enable ....
> 3. Add <...> config to BOOTX64.CFG
> 4. ...
>
> Something like that. Menu options could be more specific.
>
> What do you think?
>

It would help with the UEFI troubleshooting steps. I found a package
called Isomaster that makes the edits a bit easier, but haven't tested
if it actually leaves the image bootable/usable. Would be nice if UEFI
had customizable menus to pick different options on boot.

[Tai...@gmx.com]

On 03/05/2019 03:22 PM, cooloutac wrote:
> I agree with Chris its more a compatibility issue then an installation issue.
>
> You really have to research the machine on linux before using it in Qubes. And have to make sure the bios has the nescessary options before purchase, which is one of the things Qubes docs suggest doing.

This won't do anything since there are many BIOS that provide an "IOMMU"
option that doesn't work for various reasons, I myself have some of
these boards.

The best choice is to purchase something that has open source firmware
and that is owner controlled so that any issues can be fixed.

>
> And disable security features to make a system compatible might defeat the purpose of using Qubes.
>
> What model laptop do you have that you can't disable the nvidia gpu? You sure it has an onboard one to use in its place?

Many do not provide this options especially the ones per-offically
supported dual GPU like optimus and the AMD equivilant.