Which 3.2 VMs to backup and for eventual 4.0 migration?

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yre...@riseup.net

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Dec 21, 2017, 8:43:01 PM12/21/17
to qubes...@googlegroups.com
hello, I went through the docs on creating a backup of the VMs, trouble
is , I don't have the basic concept of which VMs to backup, e.g. Dom0 is
said to be 500Gb by itself, and the Deb 8 and Fed 25 are also hundreds
of Gbs, as is my non-network VM where I keep all my old photos , which
I did backup to somewhere, it's the only VM I've ever backed up.

But, lets say I skip the large "old docs" file ; and wanted to migrate
my VMs to 4.0 , just which VMs would be translatable to 4.0 assuming
4.0 is going to come out of the box with like Debian 9 and Fed 26?

Am I/do people just back up AppVMs and mostly just for 3.2 ? or what am
I missing ..... I am a basic user as you can guess :)

Tom Zander

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Dec 22, 2017, 5:29:46 AM12/22/17
to qubes...@googlegroups.com, yre...@riseup.net
On Friday, 22 December 2017 02:42:57 CET yre...@riseup.net wrote:
> assuming
> 4.0 is going to come out of the box with like Debian 9 and Fed 26?

Fedora 26 is not going to be used in 4.0, maybe in 4.1

source;
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/qubes-devel/13PZgSOaajA/RvBh02ANCAAJ

--
Tom Zander
Blog: https://zander.github.io
Vlog: https://vimeo.com/channels/tomscryptochannel


awokd

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Dec 22, 2017, 2:50:52 PM12/22/17
to Tom Zander, qubes...@googlegroups.com, yre...@riseup.net
On Fri, December 22, 2017 10:29 am, 'Tom Zander' via qubes-users wrote:
> On Friday, 22 December 2017 02:42:57 CET yre...@riseup.net wrote:
>
>> assuming 4.0 is going to come out of the box with like Debian 9 and Fed
>> 26?

If you have room for it, back up everything! You can restore selectively
later.

yre...@riseup.net

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Dec 22, 2017, 10:30:52 PM12/22/17
to aw...@danwin1210.me, Tom Zander, qubes...@googlegroups.com
thanks for the two replies, *However, neither gets to the gist of my
inquiry. Namely, which VMs am I supposed to be backing up, Dom0 (which
for some reason is over *500GB!) , hence I can't backup "everything"
even with a 2GB internal HD that I'm trying to use

I was thinking of skipping the 1 large offline AppVM where I keep old
photos, and did, so why did the Templates and Dom0 come out to such a
*Huge filesize, what would be typical ???

From what your saying can I skip the Debian 8 Template, I have 2 AppVMs
and the Whonix stuff based on it I guess

Todd Lasman

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Dec 23, 2017, 12:20:28 PM12/23/17
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On 12/21/2017 05:42 PM, yre...@riseup.net wrote:
> hello, I went through the docs on creating a backup of the VMs, trouble > is , I don't have the basic concept of which VMs to backup, e.g. Dom0 is > said to be 500Gb by itself, and the Deb 8 and Fed 25 are also hundreds > of Gbs, as is my non-network VM where I keep all my old photos , which > I did backup to somewhere, it's the only VM I've ever backed up. > > But, lets say I skip the large "old docs" file ; and wanted to migrate > my VMs to 4.0 , just which VMs would be translatable to 4.0 assuming > 4.0 is going to come out of the box with like Debian 9 and Fed 26? > > Am I/do people just back up AppVMs and mostly just for 3.2 ? or what am > I missing ..... I am a basic user as you can guess :) > My practice is to back up all my AppVM's and Dom0. The reason for the appVM's is that each one has specific docs along with specific customizations. I back up Dom0 because I store some scripts there. To my knowledge, backing up Dom0 only backs up the home directory, so I'd check the contents of your home directory in dom0 to see why you have 500Gb stuff stored there.

I don't back up templates, as they are easily downloaded, and I don't back up trivial, easily creatable appVM's like my backupVM, which is essentially an empty placeholder for mounting external media.

Hope this helps.
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Andrew David Wong

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Dec 23, 2017, 4:12:12 PM12/23/17
to yre...@riseup.net, aw...@danwin1210.me, Tom Zander, qubes...@googlegroups.com
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On 2017-12-22 21:30, yre...@riseup.net wrote:
> On 2017-12-22 09:50, awokd wrote:
>> On Fri, December 22, 2017 10:29 am, 'Tom Zander' via qubes-users
>> wrote:
>>> On Friday, 22 December 2017 02:42:57 CET yre...@riseup.net
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> assuming 4.0 is going to come out of the box with like Debian
>>>> 9 and Fed 26?
>>
>> If you have room for it, back up everything! You can restore
>> selectively later.
>
> thanks for the two replies, *However, neither gets to the gist of
> my inquiry. Namely, which VMs am I supposed to be backing up,

You should back up every VM that contains data that you don't want to
lose and can't replace. For most people, this means backing up every
VM that contains things like documents, emails, photos, and videos. If
you're short on space, it's not necessary to make backups of things
that you know you'll be able to download easily again later (e.g., an
unmodified TemplateVM).

> Dom0 (which for some reason is over *500GB!) , hence I can't
> backup "everything" even with a 2GB internal HD that I'm trying to
> use
>

For most users, the main reason to back up dom0 is because that's
where your dom0 user settings are stored. Normally, dom0 should not be
that large, since you're only backing up the home directory. (You're
using qvm-backup, right?) It sounds like you didn't expect it to be
that large, so if there's not enough data in your home directory to
account for it, check /var/tmp to see if you have a lot of partial
restores taking up space.

> I was thinking of skipping the 1 large offline AppVM where I keep
> old photos, and did, so why did the Templates and Dom0 come out
> to such a *Huge filesize, what would be typical ???
>
>> From what your saying can I skip the Debian 8 Template, I have 2
>> AppVMs
> and the Whonix stuff based on it I guess
>

- --
Andrew David Wong (Axon)
Community Manager, Qubes OS
https://www.qubes-os.org

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Andrew David Wong

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Dec 23, 2017, 4:25:48 PM12/23/17
to yre...@riseup.net, aw...@danwin1210.me, Tom Zander, qubes...@googlegroups.com
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Just to clarify: Having a lot of data in /var/tmp shouldn't affect the
size of dom0 when you back it up using qvm-backup (since, again,
you're only backing up the home directory). But I mention it because I
don't know whether you're looking at the total size of dom0, and one
common reason for the total size of dom0 becoming unexpectedly large
is that /var/tmp fills up with partial restores.

>> I was thinking of skipping the 1 large offline AppVM where I
>> keep old photos, and did, so why did the Templates and Dom0
>> come out to such a *Huge filesize, what would be typical ???
>
>>> From what your saying can I skip the Debian 8 Template, I have
>>> 2 AppVMs
>> and the Whonix stuff based on it I guess
>

- --
Andrew David Wong (Axon)
Community Manager, Qubes OS
https://www.qubes-os.org

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yre...@riseup.net

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Dec 24, 2017, 8:08:30 PM12/24/17
to Andrew David Wong, aw...@danwin1210.me, Tom Zander, qubes...@googlegroups.com
What is the default backup location from the GUI VM Manager : I'm
wondering now where I backed up my 300GB VM with old photos back in May
2017 ....maybe that has something to do with the size problem I'm
encountering ...... I probably wanna know where is it anyway. I don't
think I thought to change it from the default setting, as I was new, and
still am to what behaviour to expect from Qubes systems ...and just let
it back up where-ever the default would be.

PS: keeping in mind, my perhaps, *only reason to be attempting a backup
would be to migrate it to 4.0 , so I *still want to back up Templates
and Dom0?? Most of my AppVMs are just for browsing the web and the 15
different times, I've reset up firefox with perhaps a few downloads
..... considering that would there be some reason to backup AppVMs .....


Maybe the only VM that matters *is the 300GB AppVM with photos in it ,
that stays offline ?


re: /var/tmp is dom0 I am unable to cut and paste from dom0 what
I see is
/dev/mapper/qubes_dom0-root 952848292 780151168(used)
123272164(available) 87% /
and
various others smaller directories ; I don't know what a "partial
restore" would look like ; I never touch dom0 :0

--
cc: the user group
--

Andrew David Wong

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Dec 24, 2017, 9:01:45 PM12/24/17
to yre...@riseup.net, aw...@danwin1210.me, Tom Zander, qubes...@googlegroups.com
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> What is the default backup location from the GUI VM Manager

It looks like the default is dom0. (Not sure, since I usually use the
CLI, but I just tried going through the first few prompts in the GUI,
and the default target was dom0.)

> : I'm wondering now where I backed up my 300GB VM with old photos
> back in May 2017 ....maybe that has something to do with the size
> problem I'm encountering ...... I probably wanna know where is it
> anyway. I don't think I thought to change it from the default
> setting, as I was new, and still am to what behaviour to expect
> from Qubes systems ...and just let it back up where-ever the
> default would be.
>

Yeah, it sound like you probably have ~500GB worth of backups in your
dom0 home directory. You'll probably want to move those to another
location before backing up dom0 (if you don't want to include those
backups in your backup).

> PS: keeping in mind, my perhaps, *only reason to be attempting a
> backup would be to migrate it to 4.0 ,

I recommend making frequent backups (so that you don't lose data in an
unexpected hardware or software malfunction), not just for migration.

> so I *still want to back up Templates and Dom0??

That really depends on you. The answer will be different for different
people. The main consideration is whether you have any data in dom0's
home or in your TemplateVMs that you don't want to lose. Personally, I
would back everything up just in case. You may not end up using it all
in the migration process, but the problem is that you may not be
entirely certain, before that process is complete, which data you will
want to have migrated. In hindsight, you may wish you had migrated
more. You can always exclude data you have, but you can't include data
you no longer have.

> Most of my AppVMs are just for browsing the web and the 15
> different times, I've reset up firefox with perhaps a few
> downloads ..... considering that would there be some reason to
> backup AppVMs .....
>
>
> Maybe the only VM that matters *is the 300GB AppVM with photos in
> it , that stays offline ?
>

Again, it really just depends on what data you want to keep. Given
your uncertainty, I highly recommend backing up *everything* so that
you don't regret losing something later. It sounds like you're talking
about less than a terabyte in total, which is a pretty small amount of
data relative to hard drive capacities these days. Better safe than
sorry!

>
> re: /var/tmp is dom0 I am unable to cut and paste from dom0
> what I see is /dev/mapper/qubes_dom0-root 952848292
> 780151168(used) 123272164(available) 87% / and various others
> smaller directories ; I don't know what a "partial restore"
> would look like ; I never touch dom0 :0
>

It would be some large directories in /var/tmp that start with
`restore_`. But it sounds like that's not your problem. Pretty sure
it's what we diagnosed above (large backups in dom0 home).

- --
Andrew David Wong (Axon)
Community Manager, Qubes OS
https://www.qubes-os.org

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yre...@riseup.net

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Dec 25, 2017, 1:44:41 PM12/25/17
to Andrew David Wong, aw...@danwin1210.me, Tom Zander, qubes...@googlegroups.com
-----
And *Once something is in dom0 files it can't be moved *out to any
other VMs , so guess I need to delete the large AppVM backup, that is
*indeed in dom0 /home and re-back it up to an another internal HD ....
would seem to be preferable , that backing up to dom0 to dom0 (since I
guess I'll be backing up "everything" and if that's too large then maybe
I'll skip the Templates...

But, again just curious, are the Templates , Whonix, and AppVMs, dom0
going to be *importable into Qubes 4.0 ? in general , I don't
really use Deb-8 which it sounds like will be in Q4.0, and Fedora's
Templates will be F26 *not F25 ....... ?

PS: cc "user list"

Andrew David Wong

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Dec 25, 2017, 3:57:56 PM12/25/17
to yre...@riseup.net, aw...@danwin1210.me, Tom Zander, qubes...@googlegroups.com
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> ----- And *Once something is in dom0 files it can't be moved
> *out to any other VMs ,

You can move files from dom0 to other VMs:

https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/copy-from-dom0/

> so guess I need to delete the large AppVM backup, that is
> *indeed in dom0 /home and re-back it up to an another internal
> HD .... would seem to be preferable , that backing up to dom0 to
> dom0 (since I guess I'll be backing up "everything" and if that's
> too large then maybe I'll skip the Templates...
>
> But, again just curious, are the Templates , Whonix, and AppVMs,
> dom0 going to be *importable into Qubes 4.0 ? in general , I
> don't really use Deb-8 which it sounds like will be in Q4.0, and
> Fedora's Templates will be F26 *not F25 ....... ?
>

I haven't personally experimented with this much, so I'll leave it to
someone who has done so to comment on whether it's possible.

> PS: cc "user list"
>

- --
Andrew David Wong (Axon)
Community Manager, Qubes OS
https://www.qubes-os.org

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yre...@riseup.net

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Dec 26, 2017, 2:12:18 PM12/26/17
to Andrew David Wong, qubes...@googlegroups.com

>>>> re: /var/tmp is dom0 I am unable to cut and paste from
>>>> dom0 what I see is /dev/mapper/qubes_dom0-root 952848292
>>>> 780151168(used) 123272164(available) 87% / and various others
>>>> smaller directories ; I don't know what a "partial restore"
>>>> would look like ; I never touch dom0 :0
>>>>
>>>
>>> It would be some large directories in /var/tmp that start with
>>> `restore_`. But it sounds like that's not your problem. Pretty
>>> sure it's what we diagnosed above (large backups in dom0 home).
>>>
>>
>> ----- And *Once something is in dom0 files it can't be moved
>> *out to any other VMs ,
>
> You can move files from dom0 to other VMs:
>
> https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/copy-from-dom0/
>
>> so guess I need to delete the large AppVM backup, that is
>> *indeed in dom0 /home and re-back it up to an another internal
>> HD .... would seem to be preferable , that backing up to dom0 to
>> dom0 (since I guess I'll be backing up "everything" and if that's
>> too large then maybe I'll skip the Templates...

Well I rm 'd all but the 1 large successful photo AppVM. And instead of
re-backing it up to backupVM (AppVM) I attached another internal HD to
the backupVM and am trying to back to it( by 1st doing qvm-copy-to-vm
<backupVM> <file> , however it's complaining "qfile-dom0-agent: File
copy: no space left on device"

I do note that whatever qubes_dom0-root ?file is above is stating 87%
used ..... (this qubest install is running on a 1GB HD there should be
plenty of run, I have a lot of AppVM perhaps each one walls off a
certain amount of the HD whether they are used or not ? or perhaps I
need to allow backupVM AppVM more "Basic-> Disk storage -> private
storage max size: which is currently set to 2048MB ? l0l change that to
512000 MB maybe ?




>> But, again just curious, are the Templates , Whonix, and AppVMs,
>> dom0 going to be *importable into Qubes 4.0 ? in general , I
>> don't really use Deb-8 which it sounds like will be in Q4.0, and
>> Fedora's Templates will be F26 *not F25 ....... ?
>>
>
> I haven't personally experimented with this much, so I'll leave it to
> someone who has done so to comment on whether it's possible.


Isn't part of the purpose for a 3.2 backup being to enable to
eventually "import" their VMs into 4.0 from 3.2 ??? Seems to me
this would be something basic task that folks are going to do?
or maybe it's so trivial for all the pro users out there , doesn't
need commenting ?

or: if 4.0 is going to come stock with Fedora 26 , are AppVMs
based on Fedora 25 even going to be "import"-able into 4.0 ?
I'd really not have to re-tweak all my Firefox instances again for
example :)


yre...@riseup.net

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Dec 26, 2017, 2:15:07 PM12/26/17
to Andrew David Wong, qubes...@googlegroups.com
fwiw, I am unable to actually add backupVM diskspace for the same
reason, duh. I think my only option is to remove the huge dom0 file ,
but I'm still wondering how do I get a system wide understanding of how
3.2 is using the 1GB HD, seems should be otherwise plenty of room to
run 3.2 ....... sigh

awokd

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Dec 26, 2017, 3:14:34 PM12/26/17
to yre...@riseup.net, Andrew David Wong, qubes...@googlegroups.com
In dom0, do
cd /
du -hd1

then cd into large directories and repeat du -hd1.

yre...@riseup.net

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Dec 26, 2017, 3:48:54 PM12/26/17
to aw...@danwin1210.me, Andrew David Wong, qubes...@googlegroups.com
Ok, thx

only thing seems strange is in a Debian AppVM (my only Deb AppVM) I
have 2 files private.img and volatile.img which end up *near 1.3Gb
any idea if this is normal ?




awokd

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Dec 27, 2017, 6:31:16 PM12/27/17
to yre...@riseup.net, aw...@danwin1210.me, Andrew David Wong, qubes...@googlegroups.com
1.3GB is not a lot of space so yes, that's pretty normal.

Name

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Apr 25, 2018, 9:49:44 PM4/25/18
to Andrew David Wong, qubes...@googlegroups.com

Andrew David Wong

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Apr 25, 2018, 10:49:22 PM4/25/18
to Name, qubes...@googlegroups.com
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 2018-04-25 20:49, Name wrote:
> fyi the downloads section is deprecated on the right :)
>
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/Qubes/comments/8e5xm5/how_to_attach_usb_device_to_hvm/?st=jgfv9j5n&sh=6c26e5a5
>

I don't have the ability to change that. Please tell /u/lugh.

- --
Andrew David Wong (Axon)
Community Manager, Qubes OS
https://www.qubes-os.org

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