Zetec Blacktop into Saloon -anyone got info/advice?

[JR]

Looking to replace my saloon cvh lump with a 2 litre zetec blacktop motor. Anyone have any experience of this... tips.problems . pointers etc?

Most of the info I have found relates to using the old silvertop zetec engine - I won'r be using one of those (too old/rare/expensive in comparison to plentiful cheap blacktops)

I don't see any problems with manifolds, loom, injection, ecu etc. (I will be using aftermarket ecu/efi)

Biggest problem I see is very tight fit/access in engine bay at crank pulley/cambelt end. Ideally I do not want to be cutting inner panel.

John

[russ price]

Hi John

                Just to be clear is this the Blacktop which is a derivative of the Silvertop or the Sigma/Yamaha/Mazda engine? If the former I maybe able to help, i have a saloon with a ST170 engine fitted; if the latter sorry haven't a clue.

Russ      

[JR]

Hi Russ

Yes the immediate successor to silvertop - as per mondeo , mk1 focus etc

John

[russ price]

 In that case it is the same size as the ST engine fitted in mine. I didn't do the conversion but i had to change the engine so have some idea of how it's done. The clearance at the crankpulley end is quite tight but it is possible without cutting anything, clearance at the gearbox end is even worse 1mm only. I'll take and post some pics later, The exhaust has had some work done to squeeze it in. The biggest problem however is on the induction side i don't see how it would be possible to use the original system, mine is running on bike carbs and that still a bit of a squeeze. Engine mounts need to be pretty firm and a head steady is a good idea.  Just realised the topic started by the chap who did the conversion is still on proboards forum take a look at ST170 Saloon posted by nickp.

Russ

[Jim Hearne]

Hi Russ,

Did you find out what the problem was with the old engine ?

I would still be interested in that as a mock up for my H4x4 rather than using my good engine.

 

Jim

--
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Quantum Owners Group" group.
To post to this group, send email to quantu...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to quantumowner...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/quantumowners?hl=en
 
IMPORTANT NOTE: All information presented herewith is provided on an "As Is" basis, without warranty or the implication thereof. Neither the Quantum Owners Club nor the individuals associated with the Quantum Owners Club or in the preparation of the above information shall have any liability to any person or entity with respect to liability, loss, or damage caused or alleged to be caused directly or indirectly by the instructions contained within this or related message(s).
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Quantum Owners Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to quantumowner...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/quantumowners/e8d39171-e97c-408a-9c84-0e3e71dd4518%40googlegroups.com.

[russ price]

Hi Jim, No i didn't look at the old engine i got caught up in working on the saloon and forgot all about the looking at the old engine, i haven't got it with me at present as i decided the best way was to lift the engine out and didn't have enough headroom here so took the car to a local garage to do it but i'll let you know  when i can collect it dependant on travel restrictions etc. I did have a concern that the oil pick up might need moving as the engine is more upright in the Q than it is in a Focus but that was just paranoia, with the sump off it was obviously not a problem. I have however fitted a remote filter as the only one that would fit in the space available was a Fiesta one which is about half the size of the ST filter.

Russ

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to quantumowners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[JR]

1mm clearance sounds super tight! - you must have some really good engine mounts to stop that hitting. Do you have a 6 speed box or BC/IB5? Front or rear starter motor? On my cvh + BC 5 spd there is better clearance than 1mm on gearbox end. Maybe fiitting a zetec blacktop needs the whole of the power unit moving slightly towards nearside to make it fit?

With regards induction I will be using a cvh efi./turbo up and over alloy inlet manifold with some adapter plates (single throttle body) - this should make it easier to move to turbo later once the basic conversion has been sorted. Had a re-read of nickp;s thread - thanks for reminder.

John

[Jim Hearne]

I would think the 1mm clearance on the gearbox end is because the engine and gearbox has been moved across that way to give enough clearance on the crank pulleys and belts.
The Zetec cylinder blocks are the same width as the CVH, it's just them having flat belts for the auxiliarys instead of V belts that causes the clearance issues.
In the 2+2 you can modify the steel frame rails, the saloon isn't so easy.

With the silver top Zetec in my saloon i converted the alternator to V belts and replaced the water pump with an electric one.
That let me keep the engine and gearbox in the same place as a CVH

The ST170 6 speed gearbox is actually narrower then the BC/IB5 so it would let you move the engine/gearbox across to the gearbox side.
But, it uses unique driveshaft joints on the inner end so you would need to get custom shafts made.
It is also hydraulic clutch and cable gearchange so a lot of work.

Jim

--
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Quantum Owners Group" group.
To post to this group, send email to quantu...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to quantumowner...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/quantumowners?hl=en
 
IMPORTANT NOTE: All information presented herewith is provided on an "As Is" basis, without warranty or the implication thereof. Neither the Quantum Owners Club nor the individuals associated with the Quantum Owners Club or in the preparation of the above information shall have any liability to any person or entity with respect to liability, loss, or damage caused or alleged to be caused directly or indirectly by the instructions contained within this or related message(s).
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Quantum Owners Group" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to quantumowner...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/quantumowners/fc64a7b4-2bd7-4966-84f8-81a28b07b55d%40googlegroups.com.

[russ price]

Looks like the engine/gearbox has moved fractionaly to the n/s, clearance is now less than 1/2 mm on gearbox end and 6mm at the other. The engine mounts now fitted came with car, offhand i can't remember the make but they aren't Ford, i'm pretty sure i saw receipt for £50+ for just one. A number parts came with car for upgrades, not all fitted but they are all quite expensive and seem to be good quality. Gearbox is IB5 with rear starter motor, thought about 6 speed but decided not worth the trouble. If you go to imgbb i've put some pics in folder ST170 :- https://vitesse.imgbb.com/albums

Russ

[JR]

Thanks for the  pics Russ - very nice - looks like a super neat conversion. From your info the it sounds like there is about 6.5mm total clearance with a zetec blacktop + BC/IB5 gerabox (3mm each side). I am expecting to have to fabricate some mounting hardware (never seen any advertised for Mk2 Fiesta conversion) and do exhaust mods. The IB5 with rear mount starter also sounds the best way to go - the front mount motor on cvh  is too close to exhaust (XR2) even with short version motor.. I thought the 6 speed box might be wider but Jim has posted that it is actually narrower - still too much effort to fit though.

John

[JR]

Thanks for the info Jim. Sounds like V belt drive is worthy exploring. What did you do for crankshaft pulley?

John

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to quantu...@googlegroups.com.

[Nigel Plant]

If it's of any use, I had a lot of movement in my engine mounts on the black top zetec turbo on my xtreme. I had up to 20mm movement on the track. Eventually I bit the bullet and bought the vibra technical mounts. Cannot speak highly enough of them. Virtually no movement and great damping. However less than 1mm movement, sounds too big an ask for any mounts. Also note this is a longitudinal installation on the xtreme.

[Jim Hearne]

The 6 speed box is narrower as it has twin output shafts (internally) with 3 gears on each rather than one shaft with 5 (or 6) gears on.
6th is about the same ratio as 5th on a 5 speed box so unless you like changing gear or have an engine with a narrow power band i don't think it's worth it.

Jim

--
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Quantum Owners Group" group.
To post to this group, send email to quantu...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to quantumowner...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/quantumowners?hl=en
 
IMPORTANT NOTE: All information presented herewith is provided on an "As Is" basis, without warranty or the implication thereof. Neither the Quantum Owners Club nor the individuals associated with the Quantum Owners Club or in the preparation of the above information shall have any liability to any person or entity with respect to liability, loss, or damage caused or alleged to be caused directly or indirectly by the instructions contained within this or related message(s).
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Quantum Owners Group" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to quantumowner...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/quantumowners/7ffd1ca4-ab15-463c-90af-49a54c7e11e3%40googlegroups.com.

[Jim Hearne]

On the silver top Zetec the CVH pulley fits straight on, just needing a spacer to align it with the alternator.

Jim

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to quantumowner...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/quantumowners/b20b37b1-a629-409e-bd85-a219f00447fe%40googlegroups.com.

[russ price]

 That rings a bell, i'm sure it's Vibra tech mount that came with and are now fitted to the saloon, certainly an improvement.

[JR]

Jim do you know if the cvh crank pulley also fits the zetec blacktop crank or are the crank noses different?

John

[Jim Hearne]

Sorry, i don't know.
I would think it's fairly likely, Ford don't tend to change things unless they have to.

Jim

--
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Quantum Owners Group" group.
To post to this group, send email to quantu...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to quantumowner...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/quantumowners?hl=en
 
IMPORTANT NOTE: All information presented herewith is provided on an "As Is" basis, without warranty or the implication thereof. Neither the Quantum Owners Club nor the individuals associated with the Quantum Owners Club or in the preparation of the above information shall have any liability to any person or entity with respect to liability, loss, or damage caused or alleged to be caused directly or indirectly by the instructions contained within this or related message(s).
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Quantum Owners Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to quantumowner...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/quantumowners/924d57f7-2f1a-49fa-a4c5-ed37a4db3d7a%40googlegroups.com.

[Mark]

Hello John,

I've fitted a silvertop to a saloon & a blacktop to a 2+2 both using the standard XR2 BC gearbox (front starter motor) Neither I noticed seems to move the gearbox over to the inner wing area.

I had spoken to someone who started to fit a complete Focus Zetec & 6 speed box to a 2+2 and he seemed to be finding that some major mods where required to the subframe. He also said that you would require bespoke driveshafts as the splines in the 6 speed are different to the BC or IB5.

The main thing to think about with the blacktop is that the water pump sticks out and is driven by the crank pulley along with the alternator, so if changing the crank pulley for a 'V' one would mean doing the same for the water pump. Alternator isn't too bad if using CVH one. 

My 2+2 was diesel powdered when I got it so doing the zetec conversion required no subframe mods. I would imagine that the saloon engine bay is sized similar to the 2+2 frame, therefore you will either have to mod the inner strengthening or fit a V pulley.

I'm sure there is other info I could pass on, but hows this for a start.

Mark

On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 3:41:57 PM UTC+1, JR wrote:

[JR]

Hi Mark

Thanks for your input.

As you say when using the BC/IB5 box (as I plan to) the problem area is the crank pulley end. The blacktop water pump runs in opposite direction to silvertop (anti clockwise instead of clockwise) so a simple triangular belt drive config (crank water pump alternator) spins the pump the wrong way. Most of the kit car builders solve this by fitting one of the extra idler pulley kits which drives the water pump off the back of the belt - but this solution obviously uses the original type wide flat ribbed belt so engine width stays the same. Reverse impellers/pumps are available for blacktop i.e. the pump rotation direction is same as original but it pumps opposite way.- these are not cheap but still less expensive than going the electric pump route. So currently it seems he best way to go would be a simple triangle belt config using a reverse impeller water pump and low front mounted alternator (as per XR2) - all using V belt pulleys. Decent engine mounts and a top stabiliser bar to bulkhead would hopefully keep it all in place.

John

[Jim Hearne]

Another option that might be looking at is converting the water pump to a CVH one so it's driven off the timing belt.
Look for details on the ZVH conversion as this uses the CVH pump on a Zetec block with an adaptor plate.

I know at least one silver top Zetec was fitted into a saloon with this method, CVH alternator, CVH water pump and a V belt.

Jim

--
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Quantum Owners Group" group.
To post to this group, send email to quantu...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to quantumowner...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/quantumowners?hl=en
 
IMPORTANT NOTE: All information presented herewith is provided on an "As Is" basis, without warranty or the implication thereof. Neither the Quantum Owners Club nor the individuals associated with the Quantum Owners Club or in the preparation of the above information shall have any liability to any person or entity with respect to liability, loss, or damage caused or alleged to be caused directly or indirectly by the instructions contained within this or related message(s).
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Quantum Owners Group" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to quantumowner...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/quantumowners/54335d09-b2ec-4be4-9106-a33680128c88%40googlegroups.com.

[JR]

Hi Jim

I have seen cvh pump adaption methods on your website (excellent btw) and a couple of others (slightly different) . It may well be an option to consider as an alternative to reverse impeller.

John

[Mark]

No worries John, hope I can assist.

I did have an auxiliary pulley to drive the water pump the right way on the blacktop in the 2+2. But have just this winter installed the reverse impeller, still need to sort the ribbed pulley.

Its not possible to put the CVH water pump on the blacktop as the water pump sits in its own housing slightly to the front over what would be the alternator position. I did do this conversion on the silvertop that I put in my saloon.

Let me know if you've got other questions, hopefully I can help.

Mark



On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 3:41:57 PM UTC+1, JR wrote:

[Rolf]

When converting my 2+2 from cv to silvertop, I used a PSA cranckpulley to make the waterpomp Vbelt driven.

A friend of mine turned  the centre bagger on a lathe to fit perfectly on the waterpomp boss with the four holes.

Cranckpulley was cvh, as Jim shows, but turned off 2mm to get in line as close to the engine as possible.

Made a new alternator bracket to get that pully in line. Bracket consists of two pieces of angled girder with some holes.

Rolf