Engine/gearbox clearance - Saloon MK2

[list...@liberator-systems.co.uk]

On my saloon the engine bay clearance at crank pulley end is very small - maybe 5mm max between crank pulley rim and inner wing/flitch - it is so small the alternator V belt cannot be removed. The gap between plastic timg belt cover and body is even smaller.

At the gearbox end there is approx 12mm max.

This is a 2.0 cvh engine with BC5 gearbox.

The crank pulley has a larger diameter on outside plate than inner. The outside bigger diameter is approx 140mm. I have another Ford cvh/RS pulley in garage and that has symmetrical sides (140mm) so maybe the installed pulley is non standard/modified? It would have made sense to reduce the outer side rather than inner for better clearance/fitting belt so puzzled.

Possible solutions seem to either somehow shift the engine and gearbox more towards gearbox end or fit a smaller diameter crank pulley (if available) or modify current pulley to reduce diameter of outside plate.

I am wondering if others have such tight clearances with cvh? It is possible this engine is tighter than standard XR2 because it is a big capacity conversion using I think a Sierra crankshaft  so the crank nose/pulley may protrude more from block.

Thoughts & suggestions welcome.

John

[Jim Hearne]

It always is quite tight there the saloon.

The top engine mount is slotted where the rubber part bolts onto the bracket on the engine, you can loosen the 2 nuts , lever the engine across and retighten the nuts.

Loosening the gearbox cradle to body bolts and the lower rubber mount nuts while you lever the engine across may also gain you a few mm.

 

The crank pulley with the bigger outer flange was fitted to some CVH , it’s not a mod, i don’t know the reason for it but you can swap for a normal pulley no problem.

If it is a conversion of the 1.8L Sierra block the length of the engine block and crank is the same and you can directly swap the original Sierra crank pulley with a CVH one.

I did a couple of Sierra 1.8 to FWD CVH coversions.

 

Jim

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[Darren Siepka]

When I had the 2.0 ferriday engine and manual box in my saloon there was a small spacer ( a rather thick washer) under the engine side mount where it bolts through the body. This stopped the mount pulling back toward the body when you tightened up after levering the mount like Jim described.

Darren

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[listsub3]

Thanks Jim
I will try shifting engine over by slackening fasteniings.
I don't know why Quantum did not make the engine bay a bit wider in these tight areas!
The engine block is actually a bored/linered 1.6 efi not Sierra.
Originally I was going to replace this cvh engine with a 2.0 blacktop but the car had other more urgent issues and I don't have the zetec motor any longer. I seem to remember when I measured up the zetec it would have had same clearance issues. I know you have done zetec swaps - did you have to cut any bodywork?
I have been tempted to cut a hole in wing just big enough to access the crank nut with a socket (which currently is not possible without moving engine). Probably not a good idea without at least a removeable strengthening plate around it though.

John

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[Jim Hearne]

I would guess they were trying to keep the  clearance under the wheel arches for the wheels

Also, remember the saloon was originally based on the Mk1 Fiesta which had the crossflow engine, no CVH’s on the Mk1 so it may have been something to do with that as well.

 

The problem with the Zetecs is they have the flat belt pulleys instead off the V belt, this makes the engines a cm or more wider.

There have been several ways people have put a Zetec in the saloon.

1. Solid engine mounts so the engine and gearbox can’t move, somebody did this, maybe only for a track car.

2. Cut away the chassis rail, really not recommended but again has been done.

3. Fit a CVH water pump (which runs off the cam belt instead of the auxiliary belt) to the Zetec and convert the alternator and crank pulley to CVH V belt versions.

4. Remove the guts from the Zetec pump and turn it into a outlet pipe only, then fit an electric water pump above the alternator.

 

I did the electric water pump version on my saloon.

 

As long as it doesn’t cut through the box section or is too close to the edge, one tidy round hole probably wont cause too many issues as the forces will go round it.

Something hacked out by chain drilling (seen that) is somewhat different.

But will it help ?, you will still need to lower the engine to get the pulley off so you might as well remove the top engine mount and lower that end of the engine down, it can normally be done without having to disconnect any pipes or exhaust etc.

 

Jim

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[Darren Siepka]

"Also, remember the saloon was originally based on the Mk1 Fiesta which had the crossflow engine, no CVH’s on the Mk1 so it may have been something to do with that as well.

 "

Another point was the MK1 fiesta only had 4spd gearboxes which are narrower.

I recall there was a kit that cut the chassis rails on a MK1 fiesta to fit a 5spd gearbox in, something we can't use.

With an auto box ( CVT or the escort one)in the saloon it is even tighter ! 

I hope the sigma and auto box from a Mk7 fiesta I have bought for my saloon will have more room  this time.

Darren

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[Jim Hearne]

Yes, good point, the Mk1 was only 4 speed.

I did a 5 speed conversion on a Mk1 Fiesta before there were kits available.

It only needed a small modification to the side of the engine bay to clear the 5th gear end of the gearbox.

But, the bigger issue was that the Mk1 Fiesta tie bar on the suspension went straight under the 5th gear housing on the gearbox.

I ended up buying a very expensive Ford Motorsport kit which lowered the front tie bar mounting but also came with longer adjustable tie bars.

I heated up the tie bar and put a double bend in it to clear the end of the gearbox and also made an offset front mount bracket.

No idea what it did to the suspension geometry but it worked.

 

Is the sigma the Zetec-S or is it the later engine based on the CVH ?

I’m not up on my later engines apart from the ECO-Boost (now seeming know as the ECO-Boom because of a tendency of blowing up)

 

Jim

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[Darren Siepka]

The sigma were used in focus and fiesta until fairly recently, available on 1.25, 1.4 ,1.6 and 1.7 (only in the puma)

Iirc when they appeared in the pumas they were called the zetec se , the Yamaha designed engines.

They aren't the best(can't rebuild the bottom end as there are no pins in the bearing caps) , but they are available .

The 1.5 and 1.6 ecoboost blocks are actually almost identical, only having direct injection heads instead of the port injection. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/quantumowners/A00917EFDB4D454593B1CB8E9083C813%40JimQuad.

[list...@liberator-systems.co.uk]

Levering engine across worked to some extent but still not as much clearance as I wanted at pulley end. I would rather have it close at gearbox end - one reason being I was hoping to fit a timing ring to crank pulley so I could play with efi at some point (although block is an efi block flywheel is not an efi one).

With engine levered across I could just remove alternator belt. Belt was 11.9mm * 675 cogged. It looks rather wide on pulley so I have ordered a 10mm wide belt which is width vast majority of suppliers specify for XR2. I checked the V profile of crank and alternator pulleys and an RS one and they are same.The pulley with unequal flanges has a smaller working diameter so maybe it was used in configurations where belt fitting was particularly tight.

Anyway I decided to remove all engine mounts and check them because I could see the engine top mount insulator rubber was getting well distorted when engine was levered across. The gearbox cradle front rubber mount was really out of shape    - it had sheared to a nice parallelogram shape despite being inside the standard metal cup. The rear mount looked fine. Both cradle rubbers seem to be a standard Ford Fiesta part 89FB6038FA. In saloon build manual it says that diesel rubber Ford part 1661786 is recommended for engine power 120hp and above so these maybe a better option. Anyone know if these fit in Fiesta metal cups? - on the Ford refs I checked it looks like these rubbers were used on other diesel models but not Fiesta diesel? Also what is the function of the J shaped plate fitted over rear cradle mount? (this is an XR2 cradle).

I think the lower mounts take most of the load but when they start giving way the top mount is loaded up more than it should be. The rubber in my top insulator mount is not torn but pretty soft. As it's now out I thought may as well replace but AFAIK new insulators are no longer available. There is probably somewhere that can rebush these but I haven't come across them yet. I know SB Parts do exchange XR2 units but the Quantum ones have been modded from standard so probably not good for exchange. New upgraded mounts are available (SB, Vibra .) - just need to mod the bottom leg as per QSC. I noticed looking at Ford parts diagram the Fiesta Mk2 diesel insulator looks like a sturdier design (M12 thru bolt rather than M10 studs bonded on sides of rubber) - anyone tried one?

John

[Jim Hearne]

I would just fit a EFI flywheel and pickup, got to be easier to keep it
standard.

Part 89FB6038FA is a standard Mk3 Fiesta mounting (you can tell the date the
part was first used from the first 2 digits on Ford part numbers) , this
looks similar to the Mk2 mount.

1661786 is the Ford finis code (why did Ford use 2 different part number
schemes ?) for part 89AB6B032AD, this is the Mk3 Fiesta Diesel mount.
They fit without the cups that go on the Mk2 mounts and you also don't need
the J shaped plate, the cups and J plate are both the limit the movement of
the mount.
All that is built into the Mk3 Diesel mount.

I'm not sure how different the Mk2 Diesel top mount is but as it's a
different block on the Diesel the mounting could be quite different.
The top mounts do wear less than the bottom ones so you may be able to find
a good second hand one.

Jim

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/quantumowners/4492550e-ecc5-4be0-bec4-9c580dc26925n%40googlegroups.com.

[Jim Hearne]

SB seem to have new mounts as part of a Zetec conversion so maybe he can
supply without needing an exchange, or maybe he could get your modified one
refurbished.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/195674565946

Jim

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/quantumowners/E30C0B7499164E408E9829D60272BA27%40JimQuad.

[Darren Siepka]

The diesel cradle mounts are much sronger as old Q says. You don't need the metal "cups" on them that the STD type had fitted.

With the pulley end mount there are three H/D option I know of .

1. Polyurethane solid ( not very nice for road as they transmit lots of nvh)

2. Fill the voids in the original mount with liquid polyurethane. Choose a softish grade .( This doesn't transmit so much nvh as a solid mount but does stiffen up loads)

3. Cut and stuff rubber strips into the voids.( This I did for my automatic saloon as gaps are Uber thin on that. I used thick rubber matting cut into suitable sized strips pushed into the gaps. It stiffened the movement to almost nothing .I didn't notice any real change in nvh)

You can also get solid poly cradle mounts but again not really a road car solution.

You can install a trigger wheel on the inside of the belt pulley or you can attach it to the camshaft pulley. I have heard of both types of setup being used by users on the speeduino ecu group . Another option is to mount the trigger wheel in place of the distributor .

Darren

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[listsub3]

Thanks Jim & Darren for suggestions.

EFI flywheel and standard Ford crank sensor is an option but ..... the efi flywheels seem hard to come by these days and the sensor bush/holder which fits in block (accesible only from inside bellhousing - great design!) - not found those anywhere. If I have to split box for some reason in current session then this would be way to go if parts can be sourced.
Mounting a trigger wheel on inside of crank pulley may be possible but space is pretty tight there - probably have to cut lower belt cover.
I do actually already have a couple of Speeduino ecus here and the plan was to try one out on the cvh engine.

Filling the voids in vibration mounts seems like a proven workaround - I know some of the XR2 racers used to fill voids in cradle metal cups with various stuff.
For the cradle I now have some Escort heavy duty mounts to test.
For the top I am going to see if modding a Fiesta diesel mount is feasible and will update. Failing that filling the voids in standard mount looks favourite for me.

John

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