Saloon Ventilation

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Mar 19, 2021, 2:26:35 PM3/19/21
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Just wondering what other saloon owners recommend to improve cabin ventilation?

My saloon (late 1991 factory build) has matrix of holes drilled in each door pillar above striker. This is referenced in an old QSC tech bulletin (dated aug 1993). It also mentions that QSC are now using Astramax Van vents in same position  and Graham Lindley used vents in rear wing before rear lights.
So which, if any of these work?

Inside the door pillar on mine the hole matrix seems to have been covered with some semi airtight mesh (or what's left of it) - was this standard or someone trying to block off the holes becuase it does not work?

The same QSC bulletin also states that with any of these methods the A pillar tube alongside the windscreen must be blocked off with expanding builders foam to form a dam to stop water getting in? - I guess there was a concern that low pressure would cause water to be sucked in but not clear exactly where that was likely to occur. I have not yet checked my A pillars but maybe other owners may know more. 

John20210319_144841.jpg20210319_144935.jpg

Bill Allison

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Mar 21, 2021, 4:16:16 PM3/21/21
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John

Am I correct in thinking that, like many Q saloon owners, you are troubled with dampness in the cabin and the consequent high (in comparison with mass-produced cars) tendency for windows to steam up and such?

Prompted by a drive in torrential rain last year which caused the windscreen to instantly and heavily steam up, reducing vision to near zero, I investigated and as a result modified my Q as follows, which has resulted in dramatic improvement. The mod is simple. Block off the heater air intakes in the underside of the front wings just behind the headlights (I used some nice springy closed cell polyurethane 50mm sponge cut oversize to the roughly triangular shape of the intakes). The heater now draws air only through the door hinge holes, where the air is relatively dry. The front intakes, effectively within the wheel arch, drew not only moist air but water droplets when driving in even quite light rain. Other owners have fitted wing arch panels to shield the intakes from heavy tyre spray but I believe that to be ineffective in the more extreme wet conditions. You will be wondering whether the area of the hinge openings is sufficient, as was I, but although I was prepared to drill a couple of additional 30mm dia holes each side that has not been necessary. The area of the hinge holes is approximately equal to the area of the gap around the lower (below waistline) portion of the door and at 80cm2 each side appears to be sufficient.

B pillar vents -  mine has them but I believe the only real benefit is on the nearside, to prevent a build-up of petrol fume in the event of an imperfect seal in any of the filler pipe joins.

If you would like a chat to discuss further, my contact details are below.

HTH

Best regards
Bill

Bill Allison
Borders Group of Advanced Motorists
National Observer (Cars)


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Jim Hearne

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Mar 22, 2021, 6:05:15 AM3/22/21
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My understand of the issue with the ventilation in the saloon was more misting of the rear side windows and rear screen.
Hence the fitting of the vents in the B pillars (mine has those) or in the rear quarters.
I don’t remember having any real issues on my saloon but it does also have the splash guards in front of the front wheel arches.
 
As you say, the only real exit from a unmodified saloon is via the door hinge openings.
Although, remember when the door is shut 99% of that area is blocked off by the other half of the hinge.
 
I believe there have been cases of the bonded in glass popping out when doors are slammed due to the air pressure.
 
Jim
20210319_144841.jpg
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Darren Siepka

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Mar 22, 2021, 6:18:05 AM3/22/21
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Further to what Jim was saying about air pressure, 
I was told that the venting assisted in making sufficient air movement in the cabin to let the blower pull in air more easily whilst not causing a negative differential to the outside which would have encouraged leaks..
I have the grey Slat type vents in my saloon door post.

The best fix for windscreen misting would be to put an electric heated screen in , which are a straight fit :-)


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kynastonp .

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Mar 22, 2021, 6:43:32 AM3/22/21
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When I built my saloon people were complaining about misting of the side and rear windows , the factory suggested fitting the astramax vent in the rear of the door opening . I also fitted vents under the rear window to allow air through the parcel shelf and more vents from the sides of the boot into the inner wing . Never had a problem after that . The vents some people have fitted in the rear wings are from a Nissan bluebird from 1986 onwards.

From: quantu...@googlegroups.com <quantu...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Darren Siepka <dar...@siepka.me.uk>
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Andy Heaton

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Mar 22, 2021, 7:08:20 AM3/22/21
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Bill double check there is no leak on the heater rad. It can cause a slight weep and then slightly damp carpets and sound proofing. wet interior misty windows !!
regards
Andy.

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Derek Clews

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Mar 22, 2021, 7:35:21 AM3/22/21
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I have taken the low tech approach and just crack the windows open as necessary.  Beginning to think the electric screen is the right idea.  Pity they are only in clear colour as all my Q’s are light green glass.  Put have wondered about the latest generation of electric blower demisters.  Seems that are good enough for Caterham to get approved with only them fitted.  

Derek


Darren Siepka

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Mar 22, 2021, 9:16:42 AM3/22/21
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The electric elements as fitted to recent diesel OEM vehicles work amazingly!
They do draw lots of leccy so beware.

I have put one in supplement to the water radiator in my current 2+2 rebuild to enable near instant hot air upon startup , they reach temp in about 60seconds!
I am using one from a focus/Volvo ( same parts) very simple to operate, a simple pwm signal sets the output, but there are other versions like the ones on Mk7 8 fiesta that use a multi wire approach to level setting.

Darren

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Derek Clews

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Mar 22, 2021, 9:37:06 AM3/22/21
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On my 2+2 rebuild I am going to fit a sump heater to use 240V to preheat the oil in the engine to reduce wear and provide quicker heat for short journeys.  At present I have to drive around 5 miles before the car is up to temperature.  

The energy required to heat water like you are doing using 12 V is a great deal.  How does that even work?  Or is it 240V as well?  Reading it again you don't say.  240V only works when you are starting from home, not the works car park.  

On a really cold day start I have been known to runout a cord and mains fan heater to warm up the car before I go!  

Derek. 


Bill Allison

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Mar 22, 2021, 9:59:31 AM3/22/21
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Andy

I had a leaky heater rad in the past but that's easy to monitor and it's not the case at the moment. For diagnosis I fitted a drain in the bottom of the heater casing and I have a cooking sauce jar which is a nice tight fit between the heater underside and the tunnel and a drive in heavy rain collected 6mm or so of clean water after only a few miles. Also, when I stripped the car completely for a full rebuild a few years ago I found the floor of the heater intake ducts thick with accumulated road dirt, so I've been aware since then that there was a problem here.

Jim's point re the reduction in heater intake area through the hinges when the door is closed is a good one, but in my saloon the hinge openings are larger than necessary to accommodate the closed hinge with also a semi-circular cut-out in the inboard side of the openings. I could add separate intake holes between the hinges, but it seems not necessary as there is no perceivable difference between the airflows from the heater outlets doors open vs doors closed. Interestingly, the tendency of the three rear windows to steam up has also gone. The whole interior seems markedly drier now.

I suspect Jim's comment re bonded windows "popping out" is tongue-in-cheek, those bonds must have been faulty. Windscreen bonds for example need to be strong enough to support the force of a person thrown into the windscreen, albeit with the load spread by an airbag. Anyway, there is clearly enough air outlet capacity, intentional (B-pillar vents) and unintentional (imperfect boot seal, etc, etc) in my saloon at least, otherwise there could be no output from the heater and my ears would 'pop' on attempting to use it :)

Best regards
Bill

Bill Allison
Borders Group of Advanced Motorists
National Observer (Cars)


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Darren Siepka

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Mar 22, 2021, 1:52:41 PM3/22/21
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Ah no , this is an auxiliary heater matrix, runs on 12v from the car! Pulls like 80a or so!
See piccys.

Darren

IMG_20210322_175009.jpg
IMG_20210322_175019.jpg

Derek Clews

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Mar 22, 2021, 2:57:26 PM3/22/21
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That is huge on a standard alternator!  Must take an hour of running to recharge the battery after a cold morning start?  

Derek



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<IMG_20210322_175009.jpg><IMG_20210322_175019.jpg>

Darren Siepka

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Mar 22, 2021, 6:40:59 PM3/22/21
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I have a BMW 180A alternator fitted for just such a reason, that and the EPAS which also pulls loads of power too :-).
Not sure whether that alternator will fit on a cvh or zetec mind you....
As fitted to N47 on e6x ,8x and 9x BMW and mini, cheaper than a fiesta unit !

Darren

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Mar 26, 2021, 8:33:08 AM3/26/21
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Thanks to all for their input on ventilation question.

 Just to confirm my saloon suffered from internal misting up (front, side and rear). I am currently rebuilding - most of the car is stripped apart from dash & engine bay so now would be a good time to install any rear vents/ducting to prevent future problems.  Just before I took car off road I was getting major water ingress - i.e. footwells soaked (misting was happening before this though). A lot of this water was coming through glass sunroof which had obvious signs of previous attempts to seal. Sunroof has now been removed and replaced with bonded in blanking panel with roof reinforced so no more water from there.

Re; Front arch intakes - I had a quick look and it seemsf both wheel arches already have covers at front - some sort of soft material.

Re: B pillar vents - to those who have these do the openings go straight through into door pillar cavity or is their any kind of fabric/mesh on the back? I don't know whether to drill my holes out cleanly or not. The effectiveness of these also seems a bit dubious to me (although QSC appreas to contradict this when they warn about water being sucked in somehow without blocking pillars?....). When car is moving I can see they are in a low pressure area but with all interior trim fitted seems like cabin air would have a pretty restricted path to exit?

Re: Parcel shelf vents - I had also considered this but I would have thought to be effective their needs to be a low pressure opening in boot area somewhere to pull cabin air through. External rear quarter vents from Buebird seems like they would work well to achieve this but I am not keen chop body in visible area. I am thinking a simple tube type duct/vent through boot floor may work - I already have boot mods for fuel pumps, swirl pot, ARB mounts etc. so another mod will not matter there.

Re: Heater leak - always a possibility but I don't think mine is leaking (fingers crossed!). Since I stripped interior and dried it out there has not been any further water in footwells (car is under cover now). With engine running and cooling system under pressure this could change but at moment I cannot start engine to test.

Re: Heated windscreen - I always liked these in my Mondeos. Who supplies these? Were they a Ford factory option for Fiesta Mk2? If my screen has to come out (when I start chasing leaks) I would consider this if cost is not too bad.

Obviously any water in the cabin is going to cause condesation problems so I will be trying to chase down any possible water entry points as I rebuild. One obvious area looks like the front window rubbers - I have at least a 5mm gap bewteen glass and rubber lip. 

John
   


Jim Hearne

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Mar 26, 2021, 8:52:16 AM3/26/21
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>Re: B pillar vents - to those who have these do the openings go straight through into door pillar cavity or is their any kind of fabric/mesh on the back? I don't know whether to drill my holes out >cleanly or not. The effectiveness of these also seems a bit dubious to me (although QSC appreas to contradict this when they warn about water being sucked in somehow without blocking >pillars?....). When car is moving I can see they are in a low pressure area but with all interior trim fitted seems like cabin air would have a pretty restricted path to exit?
 
I suspect the mess is probably there in an attempt to stop water going through the holes too much.
There is no water drain from behind the B pillar so any that got in would sit around on top of the sill.
The plastic vents i have in my B pillars have an enclosed section behind with only an opening at the top so you would have to point a hose directly at it to get any water inside.
You could do something similar with fibreglass behind the holes you already have, make a fibreglass part moulded from a lunchbox or similar with one end open.
Then glass that into place.
 
 
>Re: Parcel shelf vents - I had also considered this but I would have thought to be effective their needs to be a low pressure opening in boot area somewhere to pull cabin air through. External rear >quarter vents from Buebird seems like they would work well to achieve this but I am not keen chop body in visible area. I am thinking a simple tube type duct/vent through boot floor may work – I >already have boot mods for fuel pumps, swirl pot, ARB mounts etc. so another mod will not matter there.
 
Yes, you would need vents in the boot as well as the parcel shelf for that to really work.
Or it you have the vents in the B pillar then vent through the parcel shelf and then through the sides of the inner boot which would eventually end up at the B pillar vents via above the wheel arch.
 
Would the boot floor be a low pressure area or a high pressure one due to the air being compressed under the car, getting a bit physics for me.
 
 
>Re: Heated windscreen - I always liked these in my Mondeos. Who supplies these? Were they a Ford factory option for Fiesta Mk2? If my screen has to come out (when I start chasing leaks) I would
>consider this if cost is not too bad.
 
I’m sure somebody posted a link here for the Mk2 Fiesta heated front screens (it was never an option on the MK2, these are aftermarket) very recently but i can’t find it, strange.
 
Jim

Bill Allison

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Mar 26, 2021, 10:25:32 AM3/26/21
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John

One or two further thoughts & tips.

The engine bay is a high pressure area so make sure that any holes into the cabin are perfectly sealed, especially lower down such as around the steering rack input shaft housing. When stationary, rainwater will enter via the gap at the rear of the bonnet and can enter the heater chamber if the bonnet catch plate is not perfectly sealed and the holes in it plugged, Check also the brake pedal push-rod grommet. But best of all a 16mm aluminium 'U' channel fitted to the bulkhead just under the bonnet will divert rain-flow into the battery / screenwash compartments either side which (should) have reasonably large drain holes.

There are drain holes on the underside of the sills at the front, they block too easily with road dirt thrown up by the front wheels. I enlarged mine but now that I've blocked the heater intake vents at the front of the wings, there is suction there when the heater fan is full on so I've blocked those with rubber bungs to prevent spray being sucked in.

I must say that blocking the under-wing heater intakes has been transformational, I completed a 4 mile drive on a recent frosty morning and it wasn't until I arrived at my destination that I realised I hadn't set the heater to demist!

Check that there is no water ingress into the area behind the 'B' pillars (imperfect petrol filler to bodywork seal was the culprit in my case) as that will steam up the rear windows especially if, like me, the area is filled with acoustic wadding to reduce rear tyre on wet roads noise.

Make sure the door seals are in good contact all the way round. I had to smooth off where the window frame passes into the door shell, especially at the front where the tiniest gap will let water run down the door just inboard of the seal then drip onto the floor.

I'd expect the lowest pressure area at the rear to be on the rear face of the boot lid or just below the lip at the rear, and vents on the underside of the lip would not be particularly visible, but a problem with vents anywhere near the rear of the boot is that when stationary exhaust fumes will enter the cabin via the boot.

Finally, check that no water has entered the sills. Poor fibreglass lay-up by QSC at the front of the sill in front of the 'A' pillar led to me having to replace the metal sill - it had rotted away to nothing near the seat belt attachment! (https://quantumforum.proboards.com/thread/522/quantum-saloon-full-rebuild?page=2)

I hope some of that might be useful.

Best regards
Bill

Bill Allison
Borders Group of Advanced Motorists
National Observer (Cars)
07702 739474
01750 22550 (before 21:00 please)


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Derek Clews

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Mar 26, 2021, 10:25:46 AM3/26/21
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Here is one link


I have not used one myself so no recommendation.  Just found it one day and put it aside for the future.  I note it is clear.  That has always been an issue for me as my glass is light green.  

ATB

Derek



mga...@yahoo.com

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Mar 26, 2021, 11:34:25 AM3/26/21
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>Finally, check that no water has entered the sills. Poor fibreglass lay-up by QSC at the front of the sill in front of the 'A' pillar led to me having to
>replace the metal sill - it had rotted away to nothing near the seat belt attachment!
>(https://quantumforum.proboards.com/thread/522/quantum-saloon-full-rebuild?page=2)

This sounds like a possible (and alarming) explanation for the brown patch under the gelcoat on my 2+2 below the door hinges in the sill. I've asked for a logon for the proboards to look at your link.

Matthew


Jim Hearne

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Mar 26, 2021, 11:54:35 AM3/26/21
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It is an issue on the 2+2 as well as the saloon as they have a very similar
joint between the fibreglass and the body around the bottom of the A pillar.
This area is very tricky to access.

On the saloon they tried to leave a passage down between the sill and the
body with a drain hole at the bottom.
On the 2+2 the drain hole went out into the door shut so in theory the water
doesn't go near the sill

The issue on the 2+2 is the drain hole is quite a distance above the level
of the bottom of the "pocket" that fills with water via the door hinge
holes.
So if the fibreglassing between the sill and the body has any leaks at all
the water gets down around the sill tube.

On my 2+2 and Matthews i filled the pocket area up to the level of the drain
hole, on mine with foam and fibreglass over the top, on Matthews with
polyurethane resin left over from work.

On my saloon i drilled up the existing drain passage with a large drill to
create a round hole, then i bonded a brass tube of a suitable height into
the drain hole.
The top end of the tube was sealed around with plasticine and then several
coats of rubber compound. So the water can only go down the tube.

Jim
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Darren Siepka

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Mar 26, 2021, 1:57:28 PM3/26/21
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Here is the heated windscreen supplier


To the club website bods , can a link to that source be added somewhere perhaps?

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Andy Heaton

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Mar 26, 2021, 6:03:19 PM3/26/21
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Morning John.
The Astramax vents were standard just above the door striker pins and allowed further air into the cabin rear wing area.
Yours I have seen and on other Qs, the foam or mesh was used to filter the air and keep dirt out. 
Many of us have fitted additional vents on the rear parcel shelf to allow the air flow through into the boot area. From here the airflow would exit via the rear fog lamp access gaps and out the drain holes in the boot lid. 
Additional vents can be fitted inside the boot to the two inner panels. This allows airflow to exit from the inner rear wings....this still wasn't enough!! This is where the late Graham lindley came up with the idea of fitting the Nissan Stanza rear vents I believe....and yes they do work!! 
Other Q members have drilled a series of holes at the base of the rear screen into the water channel.
At the front of the saloon the design has two air flow sections built into the front wings to allow ram air effect to the heater box, both in the saloon and the later 2+2 with the trunking benefitted from having the area by the A post pillars internally blocked to some degree with foam to allow filtered air into the air box. Most of the air would exit via the A post pillars and any moisture would exit via the drain holes at the bottom of the A post pillars. 
With all vehicles the design seems to be to ram air through the vehicle to change the airflow and in modern vehicle behind the bumpers there are vents to allow the cabin air out which goes back the Graham's method with the external vents. 
Happy modifying 
Andy Heaton 

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Mar 26, 2021, 6:03:39 PM3/26/21
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@Bill
Many thanks for your tips - I have read your Full Rebuild thread numerous times - superb work!

@BIll & Jim
Your comments about water ingress into sill area have set alarm bells ringing in my head! Corrosion on bonded in structural parts is usually reaaly bad news - been there before many years ago.

 I must inspect mine carefully tomorrow. Are there particular signs that corrosion has set in?

@Derek 
Re heated screens - in addition to your link I found an old thread on XR2 forum where they were trying to organise a group buy for heated screens. The manufacturer required min order of 10 all of same type (clear, tinted, top tint) so I guess tinted versions are/were available somewhere.

John

Bill Allison

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Mar 27, 2021, 6:10:09 AM3/27/21
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Matthew

Brown stain only at the front doesn't sound too threatening, much more important from a safety point of view is the area just forward of the 'B' pillar, where the seat belt attaches. Perhaps it will be sufficient in your case, to prevent further deterioration, to block the drain hole below the bottom of the 'A' pillar and temporarily fill the bottom with, say, thinned waxoyl. Capillary action should get it to the stained area. Also, coat inside the steel the full length of the sill with waxoyl (thinned by warming) using the pump and long tubes available for this sort of task. You'll need to drill a hole, say 20mm, into the sill as the two holes for the seat belt mount are too small.

John & Matthew

Brown staining on the fibreglass on the inside below the doors is one sign but a look inside is also necessary because if the member is rotting from the inside you won't see any staining until it has perforated. A borescope will reveal all https://www.amazon.co.uk/Inspection-Depstech-Waterproof-Borescope-Smartphone-Black/dp/B01NBFTAHE/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=Borescope+Inspection+Camera&qid=1616832893&sr=8-5

Best regards
Bill

Bill Allison
Borders Group of Advanced Motorists
National Observer (Cars)
07702 739474
01750 22550 (before 21:00 please)


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Jim Hearne

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Mar 27, 2021, 6:21:28 AM3/27/21
to 'Bill Allison' via Quantum Owners Group
Be advised that the makers of Waxoil do not recommend it comes in contact with fibreglass.

I must have a peek inside the sills on my saloon with my borescope camera, just like the one you link to in fact.

Jim
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mga...@yahoo.com

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Mar 29, 2021, 7:33:11 AM3/29/21
to quantu...@googlegroups.com

Hi Bill,

 

Many thanks for this reassurance.

 

My Q is absolutely fine further back – the patch is small, only at the front, and only visible on the outside. Next time I need to go somewhere I’ll take a picture, as the car’s parked tight up against the house right now.

 

Thanks again.

 

Matthew

 

From: 'Bill Allison' via Quantum Owners Group <quantu...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: 27 March 2021 8:21 AM
To: mgaskin via Quantum Owners Group <quantu...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Quantum Owners] Saloon Ventilation

 

Matthew

 

Brown stain only at the front doesn't sound too threatening, much more important from a safety point of view is the area just forward of the 'B' pillar, where the seat belt attaches. Perhaps it will be sufficient in your case, to prevent further deterioration, to block the drain hole below the bottom of the 'A' pillar and temporarily fill the bottom with, say, thinned waxoyl. Capillary action should get it to the stained area. Also, coat inside the steel the full length of the sill with waxoyl (thinned by warming) using the pump and long tubes available for this sort of task. You'll need to drill a hole, say 20mm, into the sill as the two holes for the seat belt mount are too small.

 

John & Matthew

 

Brown staining on the fibreglass on the inside below the doors is one sign but a look inside is also necessary because if the member is rotting from the inside you won't see any staining until it has perforated. A borescope will reveal all https://www.amazon.co.uk/Inspection-Depstech-Waterproof-Borescope-Smartphone-Black/dp/B01NBFTAHE/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=Borescope+Inspection+Camera&qid=1616832893&sr=8-5

 

Best regards
Bill

Bill Allison
Borders Group of Advanced Motorists
National Observer (Cars)
07702 739474
01750 22550 (before 21:00 please)

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paul slater

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Mar 29, 2021, 9:00:17 AM3/29/21
to quantu...@googlegroups.com

Tried to reply to this subject yesterday, hopefully post will work today.

Just to echo Jim’s comment Waxoyl should be kept as far away from fiberglass as possible.

 

My saloon has a small pipe stub mounted on the bulkhead. There is evidence of there being a pipe on it at some point though nothing is mounted to it now.

I presume its a air inlet for the heater in a similar way to the 2+2 that has the much larger air inlet pipe over one of the wheelarches.

I will get a photo of the pipe stub

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: mgaskin via Quantum Owners Group
Sent: 29 March 2021 12:33
To: quantu...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Quantum Owners] Saloon Ventilation

 

Hi Bill,

Message has been deleted

Paul Laters

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Mar 30, 2021, 5:26:03 PM3/30/21
to Quantum Owners Group
As Jim has said Waxoil should really be kept away from fibreglass where possible.
I have a similar wireless  type endoscope so will be having a look in the sills of my saloon just out of curiosity more than anything.
On the subject of ventilation my saloon has plastic vents in the door shuts but it also has a small inlet, at a guess, on the bulkhead in the engine bay.
I have had a look through lots of photos but not seen anything similar fitted to a saloon. There is evidence of a pipe being fitted at some point though nothing fitted to it when I bought the car.
I was thinking that it was some sort of air intake pipe for the heater in a similar manor to the much larger pipe the 2+2 has.
I will try to get a photo of the area a little later.

Paul

paul slater

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Mar 31, 2021, 1:45:34 AM3/31/21
to quantu...@googlegroups.com

Couple of photos of the pipe stub & remnants of the pipe on my saloon.

Guessing its a inlet for the heater & will have to source some flexible piping to go on so fumes from engine don’t get into heater.

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: mgaskin via Quantum Owners Group
Sent: 29 March 2021 12:33
To: quantu...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Quantum Owners] Saloon Ventilation

 

Hi Bill,

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