H4 top engine stay/mount and 2L hoses

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Julian Coleman

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Jul 21, 2019, 3:43:11 AM7/21/19
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Hi

The H4 has a stabilising bar from the chassis frame to the top of the engine. It has just given up. I thought I'd just check to see if there was a chance replacements might be available before having this remade.

The bushes are showing their age but not yet scrap. So I'd be interested in replacing the whole lot if that is possible.

A vain hope I suspect, but worth a shot.

Thanks

Incidentally the hoses in my H4 were pretty poor and some bodged. A full correct correct set was no longer available, one of the most complex shapes being essentially custom. I had that one properly sorted so the moulds now exist for it which makes it possible to source a complete set if anyone is interested.


Julian Coleman
City Audio Services


The Blue Pig

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Jul 22, 2019, 6:23:35 AM7/22/19
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Hi, Julian,

Which engine do you have and on which side is the mounting in question?

I have an H4i with the 1.6 Zetec engine, a unit that had been installed, before I bought the car, to replace an earlier 1.6  engine in order to offer power steering. Unfortunately, the engine was put in by goblins using hammers; it was a tight fit and, I discovered on taking a sharp left-hand bend, lacked an engine mount on the near side connecting the engine to the chassis, resulting in a very alarming noise as an exposed pulley came into contact with the lower chassis member and tried to chew its way through it.

I obtained the correct engine mounting in good condition from a scrapped MkIII Fiesta but never got around to fitting it before garaging the car with a view to sorting out a number of small problems pre-MoT test. That was three years ago!  Consequently, I'm now the owner of a pre-barn-find blue Quantum H4i, a treasure trove of spare parts such as full light sets (time two, since an earlier MkIII was stripped to feed it and that had all lights intact as well), new and unfitted front wishbones, new front and rear shocks (rear fitted, never used, front in box) . . . A real boys' Christmas morning of delights!

If the engine mount might be of interest, let me know. If the rest of the car has appeal, I might be open to offers (since I'd really not like it to go for cannibalisation to feed a Fiesta MkIII).

Cheers!

Susan and Martin Scott

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Jul 22, 2019, 6:45:10 AM7/22/19
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There's someone with a Wanted Ad on Ebay after an H4 at the moment - It looks like your may be too much work for him, but maybe a sale possibility?
Martin
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Julian Coleman

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Jul 22, 2019, 9:30:54 AM7/22/19
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Hi

If you could send me photos and dimensions I may very well be interested. The engine in mine is a 2L silver top zetec. The mounting is from the inlet side roughly in the middle of the car (L/R) and it runs from the mount on the engine back to the stiffener bar which runs between the tops of the suspension turrets. I do plan to go out and measure it up later today but from memory it is about 150 - 200mm long with short tubes at each end, the tubes being about 40-50mm long and about 30 ish mm diameter. 

Take that with a pinch of salt! But if it's anything similar it's worth seeing if it's a match. It would make sense if it was an original part, but who knows.

I've got enough on my hands, never mind nowhere to put it, to be able to consider taking on a second car or indeed keeping a donor. But I wish you well either sorting it or passing it on. They are fun for sure. 

Regards

Julian Coleman
City Audio Services



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Re: [Quantum Owners] Re: H4 top engine stay/mount and 2L hoses



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Jim Hearne

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Jul 22, 2019, 9:42:47 AM7/22/19
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Hi Julian,
That’s not a standard Fiesta mounting.
There should be 2 mounts underneath the gearbox going into the cradle front and rear.
And for a proper Zetec install, 2 mounts on the left (from the front) side of the engine connecting to the chassis rail.
One goes onto the bracket sticking out from the vertical rail and the other is further foward.
On the early H4 the Zetec front mounting holes were not fitted to the chassis rail and some cars were just made with the rear top mount (this lets the engine mover too much) or a modified CVH mount instead (this is ok).
 
I will find some pictures.
 
Strangely i’m sure i have seen on H4 with a tiebar as you describe, somebody must have had trouble with the engine moving too much front / rear.
 
Jim

Jim Hearne

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Jul 22, 2019, 9:50:01 AM7/22/19
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On the attached picture, the green circle is the front Zetec engine mount and the yellow circle is the bracket where the rear top engine mount bolts to.
Aside from these 2 the only other mounts on the Zetec are under the gearbox.
 
I’d guess you may be missing the front mount and somebody has added the tie bar at the rear to try and compensate.
 
Jim
 
 
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:30 PM
100_0279.jpg

Julian Coleman

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Jul 22, 2019, 1:25:08 PM7/22/19
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 Hi

The offending item is the strut shown here between the brake fluid reservoir and the inlet manifold, it's attached to the engine and the brace bar between the suspension turrets. (This is before it broke.) If you have one I'm interested.

Looking at the welds and the paint, I suspect this is a Quantum part, the fixings do not look like an aftermarket bodge. But having said that, it might have been one that was well done

Regards


Julian Coleman
City Audio Services



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Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:49:50 +0100
The bushes are showing their age but not yet scrap. So I'd be interested in replacing the whole lot if that is possible.
 
A vain hope I suspect, but worth a shot.
 
Thanks
 
Incidentally the hoses in my H4 were pretty poor and some bodged. A full correct correct set was no longer available, one of the most complex shapes being essentially custom. I had that one properly sorted so the moulds now exist for it which makes it possible to source a complete set if anyone is interested.
 

Julian Coleman
City Audio Services


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Susan and Martin Scott

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Jul 22, 2019, 2:17:47 PM7/22/19
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Has it broken at one of the welds? It may be possible to get a local engineering place to weld it for little cost.
Martin

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Julian Coleman

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Jul 22, 2019, 3:41:08 PM7/22/19
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Hi

I've just checked out the engine bay and there are two mounts on the offside. The rear one is pretty hard to see but I can see the support coming up to meet a bracket which I assume is bolted to the block. The front one is very easy to see and is in very good condition. The gearbox housing has two, one at the very front, the other at the rear, both very substantial and well bolted down. I know the rubbers are good because I had them checked - there is an optical illusion in the H4 which makes it look as though the engine is not level as though it had sunk at the gearbox end. It was checked, and it is level with no sign of softness in the mounts.

However someone has felt it necessary at some time to tie the engine down tighter and the work looks good aside from the misalignment. 

Given all the mounts are present and apparently correct, I assume it's perfectly safe to remove the offending item and see how it all behaves. If it jerks, I can rebuild the strut and remove the offset.  I wonder though if a shock absorber there might be more useful, but that would not stop the kind of movement that might stress the exhaust for example.

Thanks for the help so far, further advice appreciated.

Regards

Julian Coleman
City Audio Services



----- Original Message -----
From:
"Jim Hearne" <j...@quantums.info>

To:
"Julian Coleman" <jul...@cityaudioservices.com>
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Sent:
Mon, 22 Jul 2019 19:38:55 +0100

Subject:
Re: [Quantum Owners] Re: H4 top engine stay/mount and 2L hoses


100% Not a Ford part and i'm pretty sure it wasn't a Quantum part either.
With the correct Zetec mountings there is no need for a strut there.

Jim
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russ price

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Jul 23, 2019, 3:49:50 AM7/23/19
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Hi Julian,
              I have an H4 with a 2.0 Silvertop without a top stabiliser and have had no problems. I've recently bought a saloon with 2.0 L Duratec badged engine and that does have a top stabiliser but was told the the engine/gear box mountings were weak, so presumably that is why it needs a stabiliser.
Regards
Russ


On Sunday, 21 July 2019 08:43:11 UTC+1, julian wrote:

Steve Kodź

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Jul 23, 2019, 3:59:59 AM7/23/19
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Julian,

I've not seen an upper engine mount like yours on a Zetec before.  You mentioned that offside you have 2 mounts and I'm assuming these are in the locations per Jim's earlier image.  These are the standard locations for engine mounts on the Zetec and the H4 chassis came with bolt holes for the front mount, which was only used on the Zetec engine.  The CVH engine only uses the mount on the offside suspension turret, where the Zetec uses that, plus the bolt in mount at the front.

The only other engine mounts are those under the gearbox, connected to the cradle.  These are fitted to the front and rear sections of the cradle that bend up from the horizontal.

I would expect that if the other engine mounts are in decent condition that broken mount would not be needed, unless the engine/crank was unbalanced and generated too much vibration.  However I suspect this might have been added as a belt and braces approach to prevent the engine torque creating too much movement under acceleration.  I suspect that even high power engines, such as those in Jim's 2+2 (even though it's a hybrid ZVH) or Bob Craig's Zetec turbo could control the torque with good engine mounts in the Ford standard locations.

If changing the gearbox mounts it was always rumoured that the diesel mounts were stiffer/stronger.  I'm not sure if that is true, but I did fit these to my CVH turbo powered H4 and didn't suffer engine movement issues.

Regards,
Steve

Steve Kodź

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Jul 23, 2019, 4:02:42 AM7/23/19
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Russ,

Any photos of the Duratec badged engine as I'm interested to know if this is a Ford/Mazda Duratec of just one of the Zetec's badged up as a Duratec.  The Duratec is quite different from a Zetec and I've not hear of one fitted to a Saloon before.

Regards,
Steve

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Ian Harrison

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Jul 23, 2019, 4:08:01 AM7/23/19
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Could it be an ST170? It was a blacktop 2.0 Zetec badge engineered to be a Duratec. It looks a little different at the top end as the cam covers are knobbly and it has VVT cam paraphernalia. 

Ian

Bill Allison

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Jul 23, 2019, 4:53:33 AM7/23/19
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FWIW my experience with a saloon with silvertop.

I originally fitted a stabiliser to reduce engine rotation under heavy acceleration / deceleration as otherwise the carb airbox would hit the bulkhead and the exhaust system would touch the tunnel or fuel tank. It required the rubber bushes changing annually as those I had used were not up to the task. During a rebuild a few years ago I resolved the situation by making stiffer gearbox mounts and moving the engine forwards 5mm to improve clearance all round. The original and new setups are visible in http://quantumforum.proboards.com/thread/522/ pages 1 and 4 especially. I also fitted a stainless braided flexible connector between the exhaust manifold and the system which allowed firmer mounting of the system without stressing the manifold.

Hope that's useful

Best regards
Bill

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Jim Hearne

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Jul 23, 2019, 5:02:20 AM7/23/19
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Both my ZVH turbo in the 2+2 (260bhp) and Matthews (now Bob Craig’s) Zetec turbo (around 250bhp ?) just have the one CVH top mount and the 2 gearbox mountings, admittedly they are aftermarket uprated items.
 
I have always used the Diesel mountings apart from the cars above, they are certainly better.
 
The CVH top mounting is designed to restrain the engine in all 3 axis, the Zetec rear top mount only controls sideways movement i believe and the front top mount handles the other 2 axis.
 
There are certainly combinations of alternator, alternator mounting and belt length that can cause issues with the alternator pulley ending up very close to things, i had that when i first built the 2+2.
Maybe this strut was fitted to try and stop that rather then sorting out the actual cause.
 
Jim
 
 
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2019 8:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Quantum Owners] Re: H4 top engine stay/mount and 2L hoses
 

Julian,

I've not seen an upper engine mount like yours on a Zetec before.  You mentioned that offside you have 2 mounts and I'm assuming these are in the locations per Jim's earlier image.  These are the standard locations for engine mounts on the Zetec and the H4 chassis came with bolt holes for the front mount, which was only used on the Zetec engine.  The CVH engine only uses the mount on the offside suspension turret, where the Zetec uses that, plus the bolt in mount at the front.

The only other engine mounts are those under the gearbox, connected to the cradle.  These are fitted to the front and rear sections of the cradle that bend up from the horizontal.

I would expect that if the other engine mounts are in decent condition that broken mount would not be needed, unless the engine/crank was unbalanced and generated too much vibration.  However I suspect this might have been added as a belt and braces approach to prevent the engine torque creating too much movement under acceleration.  I suspect that even high power engines, such as those in Jim's 2+2 (even though it's a hybrid ZVH) or Bob Craig's Zetec turbo could control the torque with good engine mounts in the Ford standard locations.

If changing the gearbox mounts it was always rumoured that the diesel mounts were stiffer/stronger.  I'm not sure if that is true, but I did fit these to my CVH turbo powered H4 and didn't suffer engine movement issues.

Regards,
Steve

On 22/07/2019 20:41, Julian Coleman wrote:
Hi
 
I've just checked out the engine bay and there are two mounts on the offside. The rear one is pretty hard to see but I can see the support coming up to meet a bracket which I assume is bolted to the block. The front one is very easy to see and is in very good condition. The gearbox housing has two, one at the very front, the other at the rear, both very substantial and well bolted down. I know the rubbers are good because I had them checked - there is an optical illusion in the H4 which makes it look as though the engine is not level as though it had sunk at the gearbox end. It was checked, and it is level with no sign of softness in the mounts.
 
However someone has felt it necessary at some time to tie the engine down tighter and the work looks good aside from the misalignment.
 
Given all the mounts are present and apparently correct, I assume it's perfectly safe to remove the offending item and see how it all behaves. If it jerks, I can rebuild the strut and remove the offset.  I wonder though if a shock absorber there might be more useful, but that would not stop the kind of movement that might stress the exhaust for example.
 
Thanks for the help so far, further advice appreciated.
 
Regards

Julian Coleman
City Audio Services



----- Original Message -----
From:
"Jim Hearne" mailto:j...@quantums.info
 
To:
"Julian Coleman" mailto:jul...@cityaudioservices.com

Cc:
 
Sent:
Mon, 22 Jul 2019 19:38:55 +0100
Subject:
Re: [Quantum Owners] Re: H4 top engine stay/mount and 2L hoses


100% Not a Ford part and i'm pretty sure it wasn't a Quantum part either.
With the correct Zetec mountings there is no need for a strut there.

Jim


On 22/07/2019 18:25, Julian Coleman wrote:
Hi
 
The offending item is the strut shown here between the brake fluid reservoir and the inlet manifold, it's attached to the engine and the brace bar between the suspension turrets. (This is before it broke.) If you have one I'm interested.
 
Looking at the welds and the paint, I suspect this is a Quantum part, the fixings do not look like an aftermarket bodge. But having said that, it might have been one that was well done
 
Regards
 

Julian Coleman
City Audio Services



----- Original Message -----
 
To:

Cc:
 
Sent:
Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:49:50 +0100
Subject:
Re: [Quantum Owners] Re: H4 top engine stay/mount and 2L hoses


On the attached picture, the green circle is the front Zetec engine mount and the yellow circle is the bracket where the rear top engine mount bolts to.
Aside from these 2 the only other mounts on the Zetec are under the gearbox.
 
I’d guess you may be missing the front mount and somebody has added the tie bar at the rear to try and compensate.
 
Jim
 
 
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Quantum Owners] Re: H4 top engine stay/mount and 2L hoses
 
Hi
 
If you could send me photos and dimensions I may very well be interested. The engine in mine is a 2L silver top zetec. The mounting is from the inlet side roughly in the middle of the car (L/R) and it runs from the mount on the engine back to the stiffener bar which runs between the tops of the suspension turrets. I do plan to go out and measure it up later today but from memory it is about 150 - 200mm long with short tubes at each end, the tubes being about 40-50mm long and about 30 ish mm diameter.
 
Take that with a pinch of salt! But if it's anything similar it's worth seeing if it's a match. It would make sense if it was an original part, but who knows.
 
I've got enough on my hands, never mind nowhere to put it, to be able to consider taking on a second car or indeed keeping a donor. But I wish you well either sorting it or passing it on. They are fun for sure.
 
Regards

Julian Coleman
City Audio Services



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russ price

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Jul 23, 2019, 5:02:48 AM7/23/19
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Yes it is a ST170 so not really a Duratec just badged that way. I didn't do the conversion but bought the car recently as a non runner due oil pressure warning light on.
Russ
saloon15.jpg

Jim Hearne

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Jul 23, 2019, 5:03:36 AM7/23/19
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I saw that one on Ebay.
 
Did you find out why the oil light was on ?
 
Jim
 
 
From: russ price
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2019 9:56 AM
Subject: [Quantum Owners] Re: H4 top engine stay/mount and 2L hoses
 
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Steve Kodź

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Jul 23, 2019, 5:07:17 AM7/23/19
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The Saloon engine bays are a lot tighter than the H4, so less engine movement is definitely needed.  I'd certainly be happy to run an H4 with a Zetec just using the 4 standard Ford engine mounting locations.  As Jim mentioned, any issues should be resolved rather than just restricting the engine movement to mask them.

Regards,
Steve

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Julian Coleman

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Jul 23, 2019, 1:58:18 PM7/23/19
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To the many who have contributed

Many thanks for the advice. I did wonder whether it was being used to stop normal movement because the space is too restricted to allow it.  

Anyway it's pretty clear it should not be needed, so I'll take it off (being broken it generates noise right now) and see how things go.

Regards

Julian Coleman
City Audio Services


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Tue, 23 Jul 2019 10:07:16 +0100
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Re: [Quantum Owners] Re: H4 top engine stay/mount and 2L hoses

russ price

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Jul 24, 2019, 5:09:02 AM7/24/19
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Jim, No i have not had time to do anything yet, when i do i'll start a thread.
Russ

On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 8:43:11 AM UTC+1, julian wrote:
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