Saloon metal structure replacement

[Rick Finlan]

Hi, has anyone cut out the metal work in the sill and A pillar on a saloon. I want to keep Q for next 20 - 30 years if I can, but its already badly rusted in A pillar and has hollow sound on passenger sill where metal has dissolved : - So about to get handy with an angle grinder and remove what I think is the fibreglass holding in the inner sill and A pillar to see the extent of corrosion. I feel confident I can do it , or get help doing it -  but would firstly like to know if anyone has advice about this major surgery and what metalwork  would need prefabricating to return the structural integrity, any pitfalls?  

I  noticed a  link for the proboards forum , but alas my 3 applications are all still pending approval. I can attend Stoneleigh to discuss  - but unfortunately not in Q until its structurally right again.. Rick

[Steve Kodź]

Rick,

I know Andy Heaton, his son Paul and Eddie Ruskin have removed the metal sill from Paul's Saloon. Not sure if it has gone back in yet. I would expect Andy or Eddie will be on here soon with more information, but expect one of them at Stoneleigh.

Regards,

Stwve

On 29 July 2021 14:06:11 Rick Finlan <rickf...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi, has anyone cut out the metal work in the sill and A pillar on a saloon. I want to keep Q for next 20 - 30 years if I can, but its already badly rusted in A pillar and has hollow sound on passenger sill where metal has dissolved : - So about to get handy with an angle grinder and remove what I think is the fibreglass holding in the inner sill and A pillar to see the extent of corrosion. I feel confident I can do it , or get help doing it -  but would firstly like to know if anyone has advice about this major surgery and what metalwork  would need prefabricating to return the structural integrity, any pitfalls?  

I  noticed a  link for the proboards forum , but alas my 3 applications are all still pending approval. I can attend Stoneleigh to discuss  - but unfortunately not in Q until its structurally right again.. Rick

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[Rick Finlan]

Thanks for the information, I will seek those guys out at Stoneleigh.

In the mean time I have taken some fibreglass off the bottom of the A pillar metal plate to see whats up, look at that corrosion.

will keep you posted with progress..

[Andy Heaton]

We are currently replacing the sills in my sons saloon. Check out the photos in the last qm

Regards Andy 

On Thu, 29 Jul 2021, 14:06 Rick Finlan, <rickf...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi, has anyone cut out the metal work in the sill and A pillar on a saloon. I want to keep Q for next 20 - 30 years if I can, but its already badly rusted in A pillar and has hollow sound on passenger sill where metal has dissolved : - So about to get handy with an angle grinder and remove what I think is the fibreglass holding in the inner sill and A pillar to see the extent of corrosion. I feel confident I can do it , or get help doing it -  but would firstly like to know if anyone has advice about this major surgery and what metalwork  would need prefabricating to return the structural integrity, any pitfalls?  

I  noticed a  link for the proboards forum , but alas my 3 applications are all still pending approval. I can attend Stoneleigh to discuss  - but unfortunately not in Q until its structurally right again.. Rick

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[Jim Hearne]

Interesting, i’m sure the plate on the A pillar with the 2 holes in it is Stainless on my saloon.

 

Also, can you work out what the upper 2 bolts are for, on mine they seem to do nothing and i took them out.

 

Will be interesting to see what the sill itself looks like, it’s not as bad as i was expecting.

 

Post some more pictures when you get there.

 

Jim

 

From: Rick Finlan

Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2021 4:38 PM

To: Quantum Owners Group

Subject: Re: [Quantum Owners] Saloon metal structure replacement

 

Thanks for the information, I will seek those guys out at Stoneleigh.

In the mean time I have taken some fibreglass off the bottom of the A pillar metal plate to see whats up, look at that corrosion.

will keep you posted with progress..

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/quantumowners/6c76b5d8-7b20-49a8-b778-0a5398469390n%40googlegroups.com.

[chris...@btinternet.com]

I plan to change mine for the same reason, when I get that far. Andy and Eddie have gone for galvanized steel as per the original.

I plan to use stainless.

 

Chris G

 

From: Rick Finlan

Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2021 4:38 PM

To: Quantum Owners Group

Subject: Re: [Quantum Owners] Saloon metal structure replacement

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/quantumowners/6c76b5d8-7b20-49a8-b778-0a5398469390n%40googlegroups.com.

[Andy Heaton]

Eddie, Paul and I are putting the new sills into Paul's Q next weekend.

If you are at the classic by all means come and have a chat with me. 

My no is 07970961044.

There are a set sequence of procedures we have done. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/quantumowners/6c76b5d8-7b20-49a8-b778-0a5398469390n%40googlegroups.com.

[Jim Hearne]

I imagine it would be a good idea to take the sill members out with no engine in the car, or at least make sure it’s supported at both ends under the floor and under the engine so there is no weight from the engine pulling the front down.

Otherwise you might end up with a Banana.

 

Jim

 

 

From: Andy Heaton

Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 11:40 AM

To: quantu...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [Quantum Owners] Saloon metal structure replacement

 

Eddie, Paul and I are putting the new sills into Paul's Q next weekend.

If you are at the classic by all means come and have a chat with me.

My no is 07970961044.

There are a set sequence of procedures we have done.

 

On Thu, 29 Jul 2021, 17:11 Rick Finlan, <rickf...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the information, I will seek those guys out at Stoneleigh.

In the mean time I have taken some fibreglass off the bottom of the A pillar metal plate to see whats up, look at that corrosion.

will keep you posted with progress..

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/quantumowners/CAMZeUY755XdoGqYWZ%3D7Z3%2BVkR-_OSSTq%2BH7OWg6v8HSfSLsdvw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Rick Finlan]

Thanks Jim,  I had the same thought.

I haven't removed the sill yet as its raining , but I have noticed the passenger side door has a larger gap at the top of the hoop than the drivers side, its dropped about 3mm by my reckoning,  car is probably already bending,  my thought is that the passenger sill has already rusted through and car is stressing sill area , the sill doesn't ping when tapped like the drivers side and the fiberglass can be pushed in by about 10 mm with a prod just forward of B pillar as though nothing exists behind it. 

I'm awaiting delivery of a cheap borescope to take a look  inside sill box section before cutting, it may also help find some of the water leaks . 

Had the thought that if the sill removal affects structural integrity and car bends or is bent,  that a 2x3 box section steel chassis could be bolted in the floor/sill and a frame built off it to support A and B pillar and seat belt mount - all the gaps would let air round everything and I could see any issues in future, could cover with a removable trim panel and inspect every year  - the box section may help pull car square if bolted along floor from the bottom !

Its just an idea , a replacement plate identical to original steel plate is favourite, but probably not stainless as its more difficult to work with and may still rust when deprived of oxygen , zinc plating is good but that may not bond to the fiberglass either,  I have no experience of that other than horrible  white powder all over a zinc plated Ginetta  G26 chassis.

I wasn't expecting all this, car was a runner not long ago and was to be a simple lockdown project - but having spent a few weeks with it, the cars is really rough and needs respraying, windows out re-bonding, all suspension and mechanicals going over and retrimming as well,  wish I had spent more on a better one, but they dont come up that often. 

I have also noticed micro gel coat cracks in the near side spring turret, like its been flexing,  a previous owner had painted engine bay all black matt paint that was hiding them, it was flacking off so when cleaning off paint the cracks became apparent round the base of the turret and towards wing - any ideas about strengthening the turrets?

Rick

[Jim Hearne]

Unfortunately rusty sills on the saloon and 2+2 is a lot down to luck, how well the fibreglassing went when these areas were being done at the factory.

On both cars the sill to A pillar area is very complicated to completely seal against water coming in around the door hinge openings.

On the saloon the water is supposed to drain out via a hole in the bottom of the A pillar but it must have been almost impossible to completely seal off the end of the steel sill.

 

On the 2+2 the water is supposed to drain out via a hole in the bottom of the door opening but that is about 2” above the top of the sill member and and while it is a slightly easier area to seal it does sit there with the 2” of water in it which will find any gap there is down past the sill, or quite commonly, into the car.

 

On my saloon i used a large drill bit to drill directly up from the hole in the bottom of the sill until i could pass a brass tube up into the bottom of the A pillar area, this path is almost open, the drill just took out some small bits of fibreglass.

It comes up the outer side of the sill tube.

Then I bonded the bottom of the brass tube into the sill with Polyurethane adhesive and sealed around the top as best i could.

I then put in several very thick coats of rubber roofing compound all over the bottom of the A pillar area to fill in any remaining small gaps.

So now there should be no way the water can get down into the sill.

 

On the 2+2 i pulled off the side of the A pillar “pocket area” (it’s a bonded on fibreglass panel on the 2+2), filled the pocket area with expanding foam to just below the level of the drain hole into the door pillar.

Cut the foam to shape with a kitchen knife.

Then covered that on the top and side with fibreglass matting.

Then rebonded the side panel with Polyurethane sealant.

 

On Matthews 2+2 i did it a different way, we had a big tin of left over polyurethane resin at work, we jacked the car up at the back so there was slope towards the drain hole in the door pillar.

Then just filled the pocket area up to the drain hole level with the resin.

Probably added a Kg or 2 in weight but that wasn’t a problem with Matthews car !

 

Just think yourself lucky you’ve not got a H4, i really don’t know who thought fibreglassing the chassis though the body was a good idea.

Maybe if it was galvanised, it might have worked but not with painted steel.

 

Jim

 

 

 

From: Rick Finlan

Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 3:50 PM

To: Quantum Owners Group

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/quantumowners/099bac3f-6339-4f01-ad95-2601a82ed529n%40googlegroups.com.

[Jim Hearne]

Oh, meant to say , i would only really expect stress cracks on the 2+2 and Saloon as a result of accident damage.

The fibreglass on these is so thick it doesn’t seem to be an issue normally.

Can you see the rear of those areas for any indication of the fibreglass de-laminating ?

 

Jim

 

 

From: Rick Finlan

Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 3:50 PM

To: Quantum Owners Group

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/quantumowners/099bac3f-6339-4f01-ad95-2601a82ed529n%40googlegroups.com.

[Rick Finlan]

Cracks are visible on near side strut, they were hidden under the matt black paint / underseal. 

I will take your advice and look bottom side to see if theirs any white delamination or damage. Might have had wheel impact or strut problem  at some time causing this stress. I notice it  has a new shinny spring on this side  so a broken spring may have caused it?

Thanks for all the advice, hopefully no rain tomorrow.

Rick.

[Rick Finlan]

OK so my worries about the cracks visible on the one strut top are still quite high.  I have attached photo of beneath the strut,  the fiberglass is quite white in parts and has what looks like a crack round the ring edge - what do you think? 

I am convinced the cause of this is as follows:

Having now removed the entire strut to replace shock,  clean and paint  I found that not only was the rubber donut badly fitted but that the original kit part 11 ( see manual)  which is a nylon spacer to compensate for extra thickness of the fiberglass shell over original Ford metal body was not fitted on that side.   The spacer is for both types of fiesta mk2 strut even if it has the nylon insert .

Effectively the gap for the rubber top was narrower than mr Ford intended, and when the strut moved slightly in use transferred its movement to the fiberglass strut top not the rubber.

I have attached the build manual section 6.9.5 and diagram about fitting part 11 so nobody else leaves this out, I intend to fit new rubber donuts and a spacer on rebuild, if the strut integrity is ok .

Pays to read the manual (RTFM).

Rick

!

[Jim Hearne]

I guess if part 18 was hitting the fibreglass then it could cause the damage you’ve got, i bet it made a right racket as well.

The fibreglass underneath doesn’t look terrible, i think if you repair the gelcoat it would probably be ok.

It would be a very tricky area to repair and make a repair that is stronger than it is now.

 

Was the rubber lip on the doughnut over the top of the bodywork ?, the top cap (21) looks close to the body on your previous picture.

 

BTW, don’t try fitting polyurethane top mount doughnuts on the saloon, i spent a few hours trying to get them to fit and gave up, just couldn’t get them over the thicker body lip.

 

Yes, the early Mk2 Fiestas use a plastic bush as a bearing on the top of the shock (similar to the Mk1 Fiesta) , the later ones used a proper thrust bearing (as the drawing).

Quantum use the plastic bush from the early Mk2 as an additional spacer on the later arrangement.

 

Jim

 

 

From: Rick Finlan

Sent: Monday, August 2, 2021 2:35 PM

To: Quantum Owners Group

Subject: Re: [Quantum Owners] Saloon metal structure replacement

 

!

 

 

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IMPORTANT NOTE: All information presented herewith is provided on an "As Is" basis, without warranty or the implication thereof. Neither the Quantum Owners Club nor the individuals associated with the Quantum Owners Club or in the preparation of the above information shall have any liability to any person or entity with respect to liability, loss, or damage caused or alleged to be caused directly or indirectly by the instructions contained within this or related message(s).
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[Jim Hearne]

A quote from here : https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224552870386

 

Really ?

I suspect he’s been caught out by the fact that there isn’t a consistent description on the V5’s for Quantum’s and so it’s hard to search the DVLA database.

 

Jim

 

[bill]

It’s one of my old quantum’s, sold it at Newark kit car show in 2010, it needed finishing as no carpets had ever been fitted, there were no door cards when I bought it but I fitted some, and finished a lot of other outstanding jobs.

Sent from my iPhone

On 3 Aug 2021, at 09:55, Jim Hearne <j...@quantums.info> wrote:



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[PAUL Quantum]

There has been a discussion recently on the facebook group about corrosion of the metal sill structures on the cars & I used a endoscope to examine the inside of my saloon sills metalwork.

I've tried posting to the google groups a few times & it didn't work so have created a new email & hopefully this will work this time.

The examination took place through the seat belt mounting hole and the hole where the seat belt lower bar goes into the sill.

A good examination of the inside can be done via both holes once the seatbelt bolt and lower bar is removed

Luckily it looks like it was  possibly galvanized by the factory & is in good condition. The A pillar supports also have very little corrosion but it does seem to be a bit of a lottery as to if they are rusty or not.
But it does look like there is evidence of a weld being done on the metalwork before it was fitted into the car. Weld seems to be in same place on both sides of the car.