Inconsistent loss of video signal (help?)

[Mike Post]

Hi all,

I’ve been having trouble with a Projection rig and wanted to get the QLab Brian Trust’s opinions. This is a 4 projector setup with the following gear:

- Mac Studio - Apple M1 Max 32GB Memory, 1TB SSD storage

- j5create USB-C to 4K HDMI Cable

- Black Magic 12G SDI/HDMI Bidirectional Micro Converters

- Canare 300 foot 12G SDI Cables

- Philips 6' Elite Premium High-Speed HDMI Cable

- BenQ LK936ST Projectors

- QLab v5.36

The connection chain for each projector is:

Mac mini TBolt 4 -> j5 Create cable -> Black Magic HDMI/SDI -> Canare Cable -> Black Magic HDMI/SDI -> Phillips HDMI -> BenQ

Content/resolution is 1080p (1920x1080) PNG, ProRes LT, ProRes 4444


The problem I’m running into is output on projectors blanking and restoring due to lost signal. The restore takes about 15 seconds and has always made it back so it seems to be a momentary loss. I can’t find any consistency in this happening - different projectors, no distinct interval. Sometimes this happens only once per 2.5 hour show, sometimes several times. I spec-ed this system with the intent of driving 4K to four outputs, but can’t seem to get 1080p to work reliably.

Things I’ve tried

- Shorter cable runs (100 foot 3G SDI)

- Black Magic 3G SDI/HDMI

- Decimator 3G SDI/HDMI

All of this had the same issues with signal loss. I have also used two other setups with no issues:

- iMac 16GB with the same connectivity with 1 projector.

- Mac Pro 2013 (trash can) with QLab 4 and 3G SDI connectivity and 2 projectors.


I’m looking hard at my Mac Studio right now as the culprit. It belongs to my school and IT has dumped a bunch of remote management as well as unnecessary programs on it (MS Domain Management and Office et. al.) that I’m trying to get removed. But near as I can tell, even with the unwelcome overhead, the machine isn’t even breaking a sweat. I would also expect more frequent failures if that was truly the problem.

So I’m wondering if anyone has had issues with the Mac Studio M1 Max connectivity through it’s Thunderbolt ports and if they have any suggestions about how I can fix this or things I can try to diagnose it. Is there something I can look for in Console? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Mike Post
mdpost...@gmail.com
http://mdpostdesign.com

[Sam Kusnetz]

On Mar 10, 2024 at 7:07 PM -0400, ql...@googlegroups.com, wrote:

j5create USB-C to 4K HDMI Cable

I’ve never heard of this company. Their website prominently advertises that their equipment can be bought at Walmart, which is not typical of high quality manufacturers. I’d consider replacing these and see if that helps.

Apple’s adapters are, of course, guaranteed to work but they’re pricey and bulky. I like Sonnet Technologies’ adapters because you get two HDMI ports per one Thunderbolt connection, so they’re much more space-efficient. Sonnet is a company with a spotless reputation spanning decades. They make gear for professionals.

I’d also take a hard look at the projectors. Is there some sort of “helpful” energy saver setting that’s messing with you? Auto input detection maybe? BenQ isn’t garbage, to be sure, but it’s not top shelf either so there may be weird things going on.

Good luck!

Sam

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Sam Kusnetz [he/him/his] (what is this?)
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[Mike Post]

Thanks for your thoughts, Sam.  I didn’t even know Sonnet was still in business.  I tend to look at Apple or Belkin.  I’ll look into the Sonnet stuff.

I’ve had good luck with j5create and I used that adapter on the single projector system with no issues.  That suggests to me there’s a more significant difference between the USB-C on the iMac and the Thunderbolt 4 on the Studio than I was able to research - maybe the latter is more sensitive?

Did all the looking at the BenQ settings.  Fixed port select, played with the HDMI frequency adjust.  No love there but I feel like I can trust the projectors.  They too operate just fine on other Macs beside the studio.  Except for  AutoKeystone (hurl), they’ve been pretty solid and a great price/performance ratio.

Best!

Mike

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[Tommy]

Hi,

This M-series Mac and USB-C to HDMI are causing similar issues in various places. Indeed, I've experienced signal loss in my surroundings, and this has been a frequent topic of discussion in different software communities, such as Millumin and Resolume, since the beginning of last year. The issue doesn't occur when outputting directly from the HDMI port that comes with the device; it only happens when using an HDMI adapter with the Thunderbolt/USB-C port, which many believe is due to the drivers installed in the M-series. Below are some considerations and verifications made in various communities, which might be of reference:

1. First, export the video signal from the Mac using a Thunderbolt to DisplayPort adapter, then convert it to HDMI or SDI. In other words, treat it as PCIe + DisplayPort. (This was the most common viewpoint)
2. Use a Thunderbolt 3/4 Docking Station. (For the same reasons as 1)
3. Some USB-C to HDMI dongles might work fine depending on the chip they have. (Possibly)
4. Use an ACTIVE adapter. (Not a PASSIVE one)
5. Use the output from Blackmagic DeckLink. (This requires Mac Pro, or a compatible PCIe enclosure box like Sonnet Echo)

Since paying attention to these, I (and those around me) have stopped hearing about signal loss issues.

However, it's worth noting that Apple has not officially acknowledged this problem, so all of this remains in the realm of user speculation.

Best,
Tommy

[blindeye 1995]

You are using an M1 Max Processor that means you are Limited by Apple Software to 4 Screens total. You are using 5 Screens 4 projectors + Control Screen for qlab. I had Simular behavior when i tried to use 5 screens on my Mac Studio M1 Max. 

Maybe you Should Consider Running a second Mac with qlab for 1 Projektor or you use a Display link Adapter. Or a Special Gear like mentiond from sam in the livestream qlab class :) 

With King regards 

Max

Am 11.03.2024 um 08:26 schrieb Tommy <selfimag...@gmail.com>:

Hi,

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qlab/17d9817b-14e5-4c36-a5c9-f37532db1807n%40googlegroups.com.

[Sam Kusnetz]

On Mar 11, 2024 at 4:03:20 AM, blindeye 1995 <blinde...@gmail.com> wrote:

You are using an M1 Max Processor that means you are Limited by Apple Software to 4 Screens total. You are using 5 Screens 4 projectors + Control Screen for qlab. I had Simular behavior when i tried to use 5 screens on my Mac Studio M1 Max. 

Mike actually didn’t say whether he was using a fifth control monitor. Mike, are you?

blindeye is indeed correct that the M1 Max supports four screens total, although this is not a software limitation but a result of the number of display controllers built into the M1 Max chip.

Maybe you Should Consider Running a second Mac with qlab for 1 Projektor or you use a Display link Adapter. Or a Special Gear like mentiond from sam in the livestream qlab class :) 

I can not overstate how strongly I recommend AGAINST using DisplayLink adapters, many of which are terrible and all of which are badly limited.

Tommy’s advice is solid; be sure you’re using video adapters which present to the Mac as DisplayPort (not USB video, not DisplayLink.) Your conclusion that the j5create adapters must not be the problem isn’t necessarily so, because the older Macs are more “forgiving” of lower-end adapters.

Or, indeed, as both Tommy and blindeye have said, use Blackmagic DeckLink or UltraStudio video output devices to get video out from your Mac. Not cheap, but not terrible!

You could get a Sonnect Echo Express PCI card chassis, add a DeckLink 8K Pro card, and you’d have four 4K outputs with SDI connections ready to go.

Best

Sam

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Sam Kusnetz (he/him) | Figure 53

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[blindeye 1995]

I am very sorry that i missinderstood your mentioning of Display link at the livestream. 

With King regards

Max

Am 11.03.2024 um 14:29 schrieb Sam Kusnetz <s...@figure53.com>:



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[Mike Post]

Thanks Tommy, Max and Sam,

Mike actually didn’t say whether he was using a fifth control monitor. Mike, are you?

blindeye is indeed correct that the M1 Max supports four screens total, although this is not a software limitation but a result of the number of display controllers built into the M1 Max chip.

I am running a 5th control monitor, actually.  However, this is on Apple’s support site:

Mac Studio (2022) models support up to five external displays simultaneously, based on the resolution (up to 6K) and refresh rate (up to 60 Hz) of each external display. You can connect displays to the Thunderbolt 4 ports and HDMI port on the computer.

On Mac Studio with the M1 Max chip, the two USB-C ports on the front don’t support external display connections.

. . .

Five external displays

Supports five external displays in the following configuration:

Four displays up to 6K at 60 Hz over Thunderbolt, and one display up to 4K at 60 Hz over HDMI

https://support.apple.com/en-in/101910#:~:text=Four%20external%20displays-,Supports%20four%20external%20displays%20in%20any%20one%20of%20these%20configurations,at%20240%20Hz)%20over%20HDMI

I am not using the front USB-C ports and everything is within the listed specs.  Am I missing something or did Apple just lie to me about this?

Tommy’s advice is solid; be sure you’re using video adapters which present to the Mac as DisplayPort (not USB video, not DisplayLink.) Your conclusion that the j5create adapters must not be the problem isn’t necessarily so, because the older Macs are more “forgiving” of lower-end adapters.

That confirms what I was thinking about the j5create adapters and the sensitivity of the Bolt-4 ports.  I’ll look for something active.

Best!

Mike Post

mdp...@mac.com

http://mdpostdesign.com

[Sam Kusnetz]

Hello all

I missed the information about the single “bonus” display allowed over HDMI.

It has been very challenging for me to keep up to date on the display configurations supported by each revision and version of each Apple Silicon system!

And Max, no apology necessary!

[Mike Post]

Awesome - thank Sam.  I’m always amazed at what you can keep up with.  It ain’t easy :-)

Off I go down the road of adapters and better connectivity…. Thanks for the help everyone!

Mike

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[Tommy]

Have a great (equipment) trip, Mike!

Tommy

[Jumpcut Jeff]

I've had success with Blackmagic's UltraStudio Monitor 3G playback device. It's well suited for Silicon machines and has both HDMI and SDI out. Good luck!

[Andy Dolph]

Sam,

Do you know if those Sonnet TB to dual HDMI are still for sale anywhere?  I can only find displaylink based ones, and their TB to dual displayport.

What do folks think of these as an alternative?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1627770-REG/sabrent_th_s3h2_thunderbolt_3_to_dual.html/reviews

Thanks,

Andy

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[Mike Post]

Sonnet has dual HDMI available on their website but listed as New so it might be a different thing.

https://www.sonnettech.com/product/usbc-to-dual-4k-60hz-hdmi-adapter/overview.html

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[Sam Kusnetz]

The “new” dual HDMI device on Sonnet’s site is Apple Silicon-compatible; the old one is not. I have both sitting in my desk right now and can confirm this!

I don’t know anything about that Sabrent adapter but it looks like the sort of device I favor. It’s price is suspiciously lower than Sonnet which raises my alarm… usually when a company sells a device that’s really similar to something that another (very reputable) company sells, it’s either for the Hosa reason or the Behringer reason.

The Hosa reason is they see the good product and figure out which corners they can cut to make one that’s *nearly* as good but cheaper. 

The Behringer reason is that they copy it wholesale without thinking or caring about the details, use the cheapest manufacturing house they can find, and ship a product that’s technically just as good as what they copied but has triple the failure rate (and no ethics.)

And of course sometimes someone comes along and is just able to build it cheaper!

If anyone finds out which of those three the Sabrent Thunderbolt 3 Dual HDMI 2.0 adapter is, please share with the group!

Best
Sam 

[Andy Dolph]

The new dual sonnet Mike linked is a DisplayLink device.

From their website "It’s well known that Apple® M series Mac® computers offer outstanding performance but limit the number of external displays you can connect to them. If you’re using an M1/M2 MacBook Air®, M1/M2 13-inch MacBook Pro®, or M3 14-inch MacBook Pro that number is one. Featuring DisplayLink™ technology, the bus-powered Sonnet USB-C to Dual 4K 60Hz HDMI Adapter beats the limit, enabling you to connect two 4K (3840 x 2160) @ 60Hz; or two 1440p or 1080p @ 144Hz HDMI displays to a single port on your computer."

I thought that would disqualify it from being a good idea with Qlab.

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[Sam Kusnetz]

On Mar 12, 2024 at 1:15:57 PM, Andy Dolph <acd...@gmail.com> wrote:

The new dual sonnet Mike linked is a DisplayLink device.

From their website "It’s well known that Apple® M series Mac® computers offer outstanding performance but limit the number of external displays you can connect to them. If you’re using an M1/M2 MacBook Air®, M1/M2 13-inch MacBook Pro®, or M3 14-inch MacBook Pro that number is one. Featuring DisplayLink™ technology, the bus-powered Sonnet USB-C to Dual 4K 60Hz HDMI Adapter beats the limit, enabling you to connect two 4K (3840 x 2160) @ 60Hz; or two 1440p or 1080p @ 144Hz HDMI displays to a single port on your computer."

I thought that would disqualify it from being a good idea with Qlab.

This is very curious!

The last time I looked the page for this device, that text did not exist. The second generation Sonnet HDMI box I have here did not require the installation of DisplayLink software.

So what’s going on???

I’m going to investigate and get back to you all.

[Sam Kusnetz]

OK team, I’ve found some things out.

Once upon a time, Sonnet made a pair of devices called the "Thunderbolt to Dual DisplayPort Adapter” and the "Thunderbolt to Dual HDMI Adapter". They both used Thunderbolt 3 and were NOT compatible with Apple Silicon. These have grey cases and a short, attached cable with a USB-C connector.

Then, they revised both these products, without changing their names or appearances, and made them compatible with Apple Silicon. The revised HDMI adapter is what I have sitting on my desk at this moment, connecting my Mac to two 1920x1080 screens.

Then, they added two more products to their lineup: the "DisplayLink Dual DisplayPort Adapter for M Series Macs” and the "DisplayLink Dual HDMI Adapter for M Series Macs”. These have black cases and a short, attached cable with a USB-A connector and come with a little A-to-C adapter.

Then, without making a fuss about it, they appear to have discontinued the "Thunderbolt to Dual HDMI Adapter” while simultaneously (or nearly so) releasing the "USB-C to Dual 4K 60Hz HDMI Adapter” which has a black case and a short, attached cable with a USB-C connector. This new device also uses DisplayLink but unlike its siblings, doesn’t say so in the product name. If you only look at the product name and photo of the newest device, it looks exactly like the old non-DisplayLink device only black.

So I think this explains the whole mess. I happened to buy my adapter at a specific moment in time, and didn’t realize things had changed so much.

As a result, my recommendation out of the current lineup is the "Thunderbolt to Dual DisplayPort Adapter” only, with DP-to-HDMI cables if needed.

Alternately, CalDigit makes a product called the CalDigit Thunderbolt 3 Mini Dock which offers two HDMI ports that connect to the Mac the right way. I have and use this device and can absolutely recommend it.

Thank you all for your patience and for this very delightful and stimulating conversation!

Best

Sam

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[Alexander (Mailing List) Taylor]

Hello,

I came across this device from OWC today, it looks like it checks all the boxes the old Sonnet one did and then some.  Thunderbolt, 2 DisplayPort outputs, compatible with both Intel and M-series Macs.  Has anyone tried this out?

Thanks,

Alexander

On Mar 12, 2024, at 2:36 PM, Sam Kusnetz <s...@figure53.com> wrote:

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[Sam Kusnetz]

On May 30, 2024 at 10:04:41 AM, Alexander (Mailing List) Taylor <ataylo...@orcsd.org> wrote:

I came across this device from OWC today, it looks like it checks all the boxes the old Sonnet one did and then some.  Thunderbolt, 2 DisplayPort outputs, compatible with both Intel and M-series Macs.  Has anyone tried this out?

I haven’t used it, but I agree that it looks just right!

sk