NDI As camera input

[Ron Peer]

Hi Folks.

iPhone NDI camera gives very good results in terms of latency, image quality and overall performance. 

Can you input it directly to qlab as a NDI source (same a syphon) without the need to capture screen with CamTwist?

It really works quite well.

Thanks!

Ron P.

[Sam Kusnetz]

Hi Ron

QLab does not support NDI at this time.

Best

Sam 

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[Greg Leeper]

Feature Request!

NDI is really powerful, it would be s great integration with QLab.

[sam kusnetz]

Hello

We have indeed already received requests to add NDI support to QLab, and it’s been added to our (absurdly long) list.

Best
Sam

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> On Dec 16, 2017, at 12:51 AM, Greg Leeper <gr...@opticusvideo.com> wrote:
>
> Feature Request!
>
> NDI is really powerful, it would be s great integration with QLab.
>

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[Juan Pablo Mendiola]

any news about ndi input to qlab?

Thanks!!

juanpa

[Andy Dolph]

I’ll 2nd this feature request. I’ve seen NDI getting a fair amount of traction in the AV / staging world and it would make Qlab significantly more useful for me if it was supported. 

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[Sam Kusnetz]

Hi folks 

We have NDI support in our feature request tracker already; thanks for the upvotes.

While I understand NDI on an intellectual level, can anyone give me a real-world example or two of how it might be useful in QLab? Examples make it much easier for me to weigh the decision to spend development time on this feature versus some other feature.

Best

Sam

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[Aram Piligian]

On the flip side, if Newtek would make a Virtual Input driver for OSX the way they have for Windows, this wouldn't even be a discussion; you could just select the driver as a source...

[Steven Sokulski]

As I understand it, NDI is somewhat akin to what Dante does for audio. Multiple video devices on a network, like such as PTZs or switchers, can see each other and exchange full frame video with minimal configuration.

I’ve never gone hands on myself, but I also don’t get the impression that it has reached saturation in the market just yet. But that assessment may well be biased.

[Michael Sauder]

On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 10:39 PM Steven Sokulski <m...@stevensokulski.com> wrote:

As I understand it, NDI is somewhat akin to what Dante does for audio. Multiple video devices on a network, like such as PTZs or switchers, can see each other and exchange full frame video with minimal configuration.

I’ve never gone hands on myself, but I also don’t get the impression that it has reached saturation in the market just yet. But that assessment may well be biased.

My assessment while at NAB and InfoComm this year is that the video-over-IP market is still a wild, wild west.

At the broadcast level, SMPTE 2110 and 2022 seem to be fairly settled. But anything less-than-broadcast level is all over the place, and I haven't bothered to invest in any video over IP gear yet, though it's a major interest of mine.

 

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[Andy Dolph]

The big thing for me is when people want me to incorporate PowerPoint in an otherwise Qlab show. With NDI I could send the PowerPoint from a 2nd machine over the network through Qlab making it easy to put the PPT machine on stage with an Ethernet cable to FOH.... right now I use a hardware switcher for those shows and run lots of SDI and converter boxes

NDI just makes it super easy.

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[Sam Kusnetz]

Andy

And this works because PowerPoint has NDI output? Or is it because there’s an NDI driver for Windows, and you run PowerPoint on a Windows PC?

Sam 

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[Steven Sokulski]

For using another computer as a source, there are applications like the NDI ScanConverter (http://www.sienna-tv.com/ndi/ndi-scanconverter.html) that allow you to send either a screen or window from your computer as an NDI Source.

So instead of running an HDMI cable from a computer to a NewTek TriCaster (video switcher with NDI) you just connect both to the same network and run a piece of software that pipes the output of your desired application into your video network via NDI.

That's pretty powerful...

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[Andy Dolph]

NewTek offers their NDI scan converter software for both Mac and Windows. PowerPoint doesn’t have to have an NDI output

Sent from my iPhone

[Steven Sokulski]

I’m quite intrigued as well.

At Audinate’s Dante summit at this year’s InfoComm they showed some very early work on video routing.

But Dante won’t directly route video the way it does audio. Instead, they’ll partner up with a few emerging standards and provide control APIs to use Dante Controller as a unified interface.

The team at Audinate was quick to say this is very alpha and they’re only committing to a few IP video standards with more to come as the feature is further developed.

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[Ethan Henley]

You could use Syphon2NDI Client? I'm using the client and server apps to send my syphon outputs to qlab via the network. I just looked for the link and it must have just been discontinued in the last month. I can get it to you somehow if you're interested. I'm actually very frustrated that they discontinued it, as it's mega useful. 

[Sam Kusnetz]

Friends

So, thus far we have one example of how NDI might be useful: to pipe in PowerPoint from another computer.

Does anyone else have a use case they’d like to describe? I’m enthusiastic about NDI but I think you’ll all agree that piping in PowerPoint from another computer is not a very compelling reason to dedicate development time to NDI incorporation instead of one of the hundreds of other features we’d like to add to QLab.

Best

Sam 

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[Ethan Henley]

At my last church we have a section of LED Video Panels arranged in a horizontal strip, mounted above and slightly behind the band. We wanted to put lyrics on this strip for the congregation to see to be able to sing along. It's a portable church, so the less cabling and equipment we use to achieve a task, the better. I already had cat6 ran to the front the stage (where the LED Strip is located) for other needs, so I used the Syphon output of ProPresenter, converted it to NDI, sent down the network, back from NDI to Syphon, and finally into Qlab with a camera cue. We also use this to pipe specific video content to the LED strip (via Qlab or ProPresenter, because anything that can output Syphon can be sent over the network with Syphon2NDI). 

We are about to use this same workflow at my new church with Qlab and Resolume to get content distributed around to a couple of different places without having to add extra hardware.

[Steven Sokulski]

Ethan,

I had a similar idea in mind, with regard to NDI being used to route video out of QLab to a couple of different screens.

That’s appealing, but it is altogether possible with existing (free) NDI software, right?

Steven

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[Ethan Henley]

Unfortunately, unless you're like me and had already downloaded the now discontinued software, no. I can't find any other software to do the same thing, and you can't download a copy of Syphon2NDI anymore.

[luckydave]

Does this do the same thing as Syphon2NDI?

https://docs.vidvox.net/freebies_ndi_syphon.html

[Ethan Henley]

YES! Thank you! I've looked all over the place for something else to do it with that was supported. 

[Andy Dolph]

How many folks are using an NDI to Syphon converter with Qlab?  how reliable are they?

I'm always wary of adding additional conversion steps in show critical situations...

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[Andy Dolph]

the other thing about NDI is that it's a very desirable way of using ethernet infrastructure over inexpensive, easily available cables to send video throughout a venue...  if it was well supported and reliable, I'd much prefer to use an ethernet backbone for distribution rather than SDI or fiber for most of what I do....  

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[Steven Sokulski]

This still feels analogous to Dante or other audio routing options, though.  Which is to say that the integration happens outside of QLab, either getting signal in or out.

In an ideal world, Figure53 wouldn’t have to play gatekeeper for each emerging routing system.

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[John Huntington]

On Tuesday, September 11, 2018 at 11:15:01 AM UTC-4, sam kusnetz wrote:

So, thus far we have one example of how NDI might be useful: to pipe in PowerPoint from another computer.

If I remember right we had a projection designer last year who was using it (into Watchout, but the principle's the same) to export video out in "real time"  from Photoshop/Aftereffects to build up projections masks.  

John

[Stephen Harrison]

Another use case is enhanced output routing capacity/flexibility. I recently ran a show on a MBPro with 4 projectors; this required a lot of dongle juggling as well as long SDI cable runs, 3 of which were all going to the same place. With NDI support then one could output multiple surfaces beyond the limitations of available video ports, and also save on a lot of cable runs. I already had ethernet running to the projectors as well, for shutter and power control, so with the addition of some NDI->HDMI/DVI converters this could have been on a single cable.

It seems that this can be done now with Syphon->NDI software, but there is going to be an additional processing overhead to this, which is not ideal when the machine may already be stretched processing multiple video streams, so built-in NDI support would be beneficial. This particular use case also relies on NDI breakout boxes, of which a few do exist, but as the ecosystem expands this will become more realistic.

I can see NDI support as an example of 'skating to where the puck is going' as video over IP is going to become increasingly relevant in coming years.

Stephen

[Stephen Harrison]

Correction: there don't yet appear to be any NDI to HDMI converters (just HDMI to NDI) other than ones requiring a computer and video device. But I am sure it is just a matter of time until such converters do come onto the market.

I also realise that this thread was originally about NDI as an input source, but I think the possibilities for output are as great.

Stephen

[Andy Dolph]

I agree, and I didn't mean to imply that only input from NDI was desirable...  I think it's got at least as much, maybe more, value as an output.

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[Jake Whittingham]

Pre-visualisation with lighting in WYSIWYG - Capture cards are expensive and CITP isn't great. We do lots of timecoded lighting and video shows and it'd be great to easily use Qlab as a source for pre-vis.

[sam kusnetz]

Hi Jake

Can you describe how NDI would help this? What material would you be playing from QLab, and where would it go that NDI helps?

Thanks!

Sam

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[Jake Whittingham]

Of course. As an LD, the previs process is made much easier by being able to see video content on screens as they will appear in the real world. Cast WYSIWYG has recently enabled NDI for receiving video from media servers (https://cast-soft.com/wysiwyg-lighting-design/wysiwyg-new-release/r41-newtek-ndi-video-protocol-added/). Often hiring D3, Hippo or Catalyst is not financially viable or practical for a previs week, so it would be great to stream video content to WYG from Qlab.

Let me know if you need further elaboration.

Jake

[Greg Leeper]

Hi Sam, 

As I understand it NDI is good because:

you don't need a HDMI output, cable (with it's short distance limits/issues), or capture device on the receiving end (which can also be finicky).

And it does run over cheap cat5e cable, through cheap router/switch boxes.  It doesn't care if you are a mac or PC.

It's different from Video over IP in that there are no middle boxes - you connect the cables directly to computer ethernet ports - so I expect there is a compression hit of some sort?  But with the benefit of no capture device overhead... and minimal output device overhead.

[Steven Sokulski]

For something that doesn’t have to be show-grade, you might look into Syohon comparability for your WYG system.

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[Jim Suttie]

Hi Ron,

There is an app “Syphon2NDIClient" that will let you use NDI Cam on the iPhone as a camera source in QLab.

It does work although I couldn’t comment its reliability or resilience.

Good luck,

Jim

[Sam Kusnetz]

Jake

Aha, WYG having NDI input was the missing piece of information, thank you.

Best

Sam 

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[Stephen Harrison]

Another use case came to mind reading this post:

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/qlab/AyNH-QlcdBs/discussion

In a situation where you have to process a number of incoming video streams (by whatever means), it would often be desirable to offload this processing onto a separate computer, so as not to overburden the show computer. NDI would allow one to do this -- sending multiple video streams into the show computer (equivalent to Syphon over network, if such a thing still existed).

[Erin Teachman]

As a projection designer, the single most useful feature of NDI is its integration with After Effects. Being able to compose in After Effects on the surface that I want to project/send media to is a massive time saver that takes the guesswork out of the compositions and means I need to render far less often once on site. Syphon would theoretically work, but the AESyphon plugin is essentially a one person project and that person has stopped sending out the plugin (any leads on a full resolution Syphon plug-in for After Effects that doesn't go through Tobias Ebsen are welcome). NDI has the active support of a developer. 

Erin

Am Sonntag, 9. September 2018 11:50:21 UTC-4 schrieb sam kusnetz:

Hi folks 

We have NDI support in our feature request tracker already; thanks for the upvotes.

While I understand NDI on an intellectual level, can anyone give me a real-world example or two of how it might be useful in QLab? Examples make it much easier for me to weigh the decision to spend development time on this feature versus some other feature.

Best

Sam

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On Sep 9, 2018, at 7:39 AM, Andy Dolph <acd...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ll 2nd this feature request. I’ve seen NDI getting a fair amount of traction in the AV / staging world and it would make Qlab significantly more useful for me if it was supported. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 9, 2018, at 7:33 AM, Juan Pablo Mendiola <jpmen...@gmail.com> wrote:

any news about ndi input to qlab?

Thanks!!

juanpa

El viernes, 15 de diciembre de 2017, 16:40:41 (UTC+1), Ron Peer escribió:

Hi Folks.

iPhone NDI camera gives very good results in terms of latency, image quality and overall performance. 

Can you input it directly to qlab as a NDI source (same a syphon) without the need to capture screen with CamTwist?

It really works quite well.

Thanks!

Ron P.

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[Sam Kusnetz]

These are pretty excellent points, thank you!

Sam 

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[Greg Leeper]

Hi Sam, 

I've seen switchers that take NDI, Atomos just announced hardware that provides NDI i/o with their LCD monitor/recorder/players, and here is a PTZ cam that has NDI out...   

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1352032-REG/ptzoptics_pt20x_ndi_gy_20x_ndi_camera_gray.html?ap=y&gclid=Cj0KCQjw9ZDeBRD9ARIsAMbAmobitIWVEPETFWwrQuViZgByh9KrTUgpjE0DrEXvHPikS7SMW2VsWMsaAuuVEALw_wcB&smp=y

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[John Huntington]

Just saw these guys at NAB NYC yesterday:

http://www.bird-dog.tv/

They were showing an NDI camera.

John

[Ross McIntosh]

My primary interest would be in getting Output from QLab in to our fast becoming NDI Workflows.

Having NDI Inputs in to QLab would be no bad thing either.

I think the fundamental thing people have missed out there is that in a network based workflow Inputs & Outputs can be anywhere and everywhere at the same time.

I can have the output from QLab appear on the Main Vision Mixer going to the Projector or LED Wall, but can simultaneously route it to a DSM (Comfort Monitor) and perhaps a Milling/Lobby display also.  And I don't have to physically change any patching as such or involve an SDI Router to do it.

Sources are effectively DAd as a matter of course.  If I want it on multiple mixers at the same time, no problem.

It's always think it's hard to pick a winning/leading IP Video standard, but I believe NewTek NDI is the one gaining most traction, it's adoption rate is frightening, and the development is fast.

Skype now has NDI baked in and I believe it's only a matter of time before we see it inside PowerPoint without the need to use the Scan Converter apps.

Bird-Dog already have SDI/HDMI to NDI nodes available at 2 different levels and we own and use these for Production AV.

Magewell have some coming to market.

NDI is the Network based IP Production Workflow to be on the bandwagon with.  It just plays nice.

And anyone using a TriCaster will be very thankful for your consideration to implement it.

Thanks,

Ross

PerspectAV

[OEK]

Hi fellow Qlabbers..

I've also just posted this in the "QLab Users and Programmers"-Facebook page.

Maybe this has all been said, but if it hasn't,

I would like to share my findings in this group.

I have been looking for ways to get Qlab to output onto NDI.

And I agree that using the NDI Scan Converter in the (free) NewTek NDI-tools are the best way to go.

https://www.newtek.com/ndi/tools/

You would still have to connect an external screen to be able to capture this Qlab output, at the correct resolution, as a file into the NDI Scan Converter.

However, if you would like to take an NDI-stream as an

INPUT into Qlab (using a camera-cue) you would have to convert the NDI-stream into something Qlab can manage.

I found out...via Syphon you can!

Thanks to the developers and community at VDMX

you can download this free tool:

https://docs.vidvox.net/freebies_ndi_syphon.html#using-ndisyphon

Quote on the website:

"NDISyphon is a simple, free utility that makes it possible for any Syphon enabled software to efficiently send and receive video streams to and from other applications over a network using the NDI® protocol from Newtek"

Running this tool on a Qlab computer in a network will enable you to use any NDI-stream as a camera-input (Syphon) into your workspace.

Although this tool can, I would not recommend using this tool to convert a Syphon (virtual) screen into NDI.

I have noticed a significant loss in image quality.

So I would prefer using the NewTek-scan converter for that

Hope this helps! 

(since TCPSyphon or Syphon2NDIclient has been disontinued)

Feel free to comment or correct..

Greetings from the Netherlands

Erwin (OEK)

Op vrijdag 15 december 2017 16:40:41 UTC+1 schreef Ron Peer:

[Max Heesen]

great! somehow i can´t download scan converter as the NDI tools pack can´t be installed... any ideas why, or a hint to a single download???

[Ross McIntosh]

On Monday, January 21, 2019 at 7:58:20 PM UTC, Max Heesen wrote:

great! somehow i can´t download scan converter as the NDI tools pack can´t be installed... any ideas why, or a hint to a single download???

Depends on the spec of your computer.  And the CPU.  Any chance it's an AMD Processor? 

[Max Heesen]

it says NewTekNDIToolsForMac / No datasystem able to be activated?! its a macbook pro from 2013

what about the scanconverter from apple store. costs 50 EUR but i need this tool urgently...

[Merle DeWitt III]

Hello Sam,

I have been using Qlab for a while now and love y'all's software. The major issue I have with it is the fact that it is mac only and because Mac is Mac I can only get my computer to be so good. This is where NDI comes in handy. Lately I have been looking at how I can use Qlab to trigger a VJ software like Resolume, which already outputs to NDI. Now using Qlab as a glorified go button (something resolume lacks) is great but I want to further integrate Qlab into my design. I can, as is listed below, use a plug in to go from NDI to Syphon, but that is an added step and risk of failure. So having the option to use an NDI input from a media server would be amazing so I can use all the great features of Qlab but I no longer need to worry about my computer crashing because now I have the server dealing with most of the processing.

I hope this helps!

Cheers,

Merle DeWitt

Lighting and Projection Designer

www.merledewitt.com 

On Sunday, September 9, 2018 at 8:50:21 AM UTC-7, sam kusnetz wrote:

Hi folks 

We have NDI support in our feature request tracker already; thanks for the upvotes.

While I understand NDI on an intellectual level, can anyone give me a real-world example or two of how it might be useful in QLab? Examples make it much easier for me to weigh the decision to spend development time on this feature versus some other feature.

Best

Sam

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On Sep 9, 2018, at 7:39 AM, Andy Dolph <acd...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ll 2nd this feature request. I’ve seen NDI getting a fair amount of traction in the AV / staging world and it would make Qlab significantly more useful for me if it was supported. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 9, 2018, at 7:33 AM, Juan Pablo Mendiola <jpmen...@gmail.com> wrote:

any news about ndi input to qlab?

Thanks!!

juanpa

El viernes, 15 de diciembre de 2017, 16:40:41 (UTC+1), Ron Peer escribió:

Hi Folks.

iPhone NDI camera gives very good results in terms of latency, image quality and overall performance. 

Can you input it directly to qlab as a NDI source (same a syphon) without the need to capture screen with CamTwist?

It really works quite well.

Thanks!

Ron P.

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[Steven Sokulski]

Hi Merle,

I’d be curious what you’re looking to do with video composition in Resolume that needs to route back into QLab?

Once you have a dedicated media server in the mix, why wouldn’t you just route out from that to your display devices?

Steven Sokulski

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[Darin Basile]

I'm with Merle. I tend to be running Touch Designer on PC, for tracking and interactive elements/kinect2/IR Cams, etc... but for the average tech that interface is a bit confusing. I love Qlab and it's easy for most theatre types to program and trigger cues. Taking streams from PCs, doing the heavy lifting of tracking/realtime generative content with non-mac compatible elements, via NDI into Qlab surfaces, would allow me to seamlessly switch between show and interactive content. 

D

[Pierre-Luc Brunet]

I'll 2nd, 3rd, 4th the greatness of NDI in general. To me it's a revolution in the video world. (much like Dante in audio). It's the future of video transport.

As others have mentioned, there is an After effects and Adobe Première plugin which sends out the full screen output of these softwares out over the network. This is an excellent creation tool.

I've used it specifically as an input in Watchout. We are then able to have the content designer work live from their AE with alpha to the fully mapped 3D objects, general projections, LEDs etc. As Erin mentioned, it's a major time saver for the whole video team and the production. Ultimately enhances creativity.

**Also note**

1) It is much faster than a physical live input card. (No more big latency from interactive computers and potentially cameras.)

2) It is resolution and frame rate agnostic! Meaning you can send any custom resolutions at any FPS. (no more limited by conventional formats.)

3) There are cameras, switchers and converters (NDI to physical ins or outs) that exists already. This means again you can have cameras feeds with almost no latency coming in.

4) It supports stream WITH Alpha and without alpha.

5) It's been integrated into at least: Watchout, Coolux, d3 (disguise), VYV Photon, Xagora, Touch Designer, WISIWYG, Mad mapper

So we have these case scenarios:

1) Input from AE to mapped projections and LEDs

2) Input from NDI cameras for extremely low latency live feeds.

3) Input from generative computer (ex: touch designer) for near zero latency and custom resolutions (including over 4k)

4) Output to WISIWYG and other 3D softwares for previz

5) Output to Mad mapper for video Pixel mapping to artnet

6) Output to NDI switcher for TV, broadcast etc playback

All that with just a network cable (and code of course). It's quite extraordinary and easy to use.

[Andy Dolph]

I wonder how much of this we may be able to do with the new Dante Video standard that was announced at infocom (not that I see that potential as a reason to not have NDI support in Qlab - I'm totally in favor.)

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[sam kusnetz]

As of right now, Dante AV doesn't appear to be a software product at all, so for the time being it seems there's nothing really that we can do with it.

-Sam

On Thursday, August 15, 2019 at 8:00:29 PM UTC-4, Andy Dolph wrote:

I wonder how much of this we may be able to do with the new Dante Video standard that was announced at infocom (not that I see that potential as a reason to not have NDI support in Qlab - I'm totally in favor.)

[Andy Dolph]

that's fair enough

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[Johnny Boy]

Hi Sam.
At one of the main city theaters in Sweden, we have been using Qlab for years and never had issues with video as it has always handled our needs.
However recently the game has changed with video designers wanting to input live as previously mentioned in this post.
NDI being the only option that is real-time stable from Adobe programs.
I'm designing a show at the moment but now using Resolume as it takes NDI without a hitch and then cue over OSC from Qlab.
Would be awesome to skip this process in the future.
Many thanks and keep up the amazing work!
JC

[Chris Ashworth]

Thanks Pierre-Luc!

All of the below filed in our tracker under the ticket tracking NDI.

-C

[Pierre-Luc Brunet]

Excellent. :)

Lastly, NDI also supports multichannel audio and:

"The protocol also includes tools that implement video access rights, grouping, bi-directional metadata and IP commands."

Voilà.

[Mark Smedley]

A little late here, but one thing we have been playing with is live video from cell phones. We got it working using multiple softwares, Syphon, and hardware, but it definitely wasn’t reliable. We could use our Hippotizer media server, but for what we were doing (and student ops), QLab is great from a UI perspective. Another idea that just came up and tossed around today was sending video to a cell phone to mimic a phone ring since stagecaller has never worked perfectly and is now completely unsupported.

Another reason is that while media servers are great, the timeline based programming on most of them isn’t my personal style/preference, so just using QLab to supply the content and manipulating it in the media server is great for some of our shows that are only 3 week runs.