Audio Board Control and Purchase Recommendations

[Tom Colburn]

Hi,

I work with with two community theatres. One sometimes uses a venue with a PreSonus StudioLive 32S. Can this be controlled by QLab?

The other theatre is looking to buy an audio board (they don’t currently have a location, so rent various venues). They need 24 input channels and have a small to modest budget +/- $3500. I’d appreciate feedback from those with experience on boards that you think would fit the bill.

Tom

[Joe Wilson]

I really like the Allen and Heath Sq series for budget consoles (but holy crap the prices have gone up a bit.)

The SQ-5 might be up their alley if they can stretch the budget just a little bit.

If not, I guess a Behringer X32 would be the next best choice, but personally I vastly prefer the SQ series.

As for the StudioLive 32S, I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to control, but it doesn't look like it.

I don't believe you can recall scenes or externally control the console outside of their proprietary applications.

~joe

--
Contact support anytime: sup...@figure53.com
Follow QLab on Twitter: https://twitter.com/QLabApp
User Group Code of Conduct: https://qlab.app/code-of-conduct/
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "QLab" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qlab+uns...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qlab/CAC0O823QhTTDYxNXnYquQkK3nxfAQbPkw1tcZ%3D4%3Dat9L7aO2tw%40mail.gmail.com.

--

_________________________
Joe Wilson, ATD/Sound
Indian River State College

Adding one more "me too" to the
collective internet consciousness.

[Andy Dolph]

I was thinking exactly the same thing.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qlab/CALPCkUqYsJhbxueZpdg5_oqGfrWR-ScinQumiYx4MRHVrWyxsA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Tom Colburn]

Re: control of PreSonus, mics on/off, scenes, etc. Sounds like a no.

I was looking at the QU-24 Chrome by A&H as one possibility. I’m not familiar with the SQ-5, but just took a quick look. I like the fact it rack mounts and has more I/O.

Thanks!

Tom

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qlab/CALBN1sb_thRXATxQ%2BnPyDEuqETqDNdwNwwHE3TqhoSNxg16FYg%40mail.gmail.com.

[jimsta...@zoho.com]

Since they have been out for a while now, I've seen several used Midas M32s for sale, usually in your price range (US $3000 - 4000 including a flight case).

Jim

[Andy Dolph]

The QU isn't a bad console, but the SQ is SOOOO much more powerful - it's really worth the upgrade if there's any way to do it.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qlab/CAC0O821KrcnOwpcFNKvPT9g3m%2BoJvuqNNQWAVCdeW9kvA%3D8MkQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Tom Colburn]

Anyone have any thoughts on the Yamaha TF 3 or 5? How would any of these board choices be impacted by mostly volunteers with varying experience being the users?

Tom

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qlab/CALBN1sZzZ80USLxagR8qEBre1ANJjcCAQTN6RmFJHekAp2LhvA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Sam Kusnetz]

NOTE: I am speaking as an individual sound designer here, not as a representative of Figure 53!

I think the A&H SQ line is the best console being discussed in this thread from the perspective of sound quality and feature set. It does take a little getting used to, though, and it is more expensive than the others. I think it’s worth every penny more than the others, but of course you have to have those pennies before you can spend them.

I’ve never used the A&H QU series and have no opinion.

The Yamaha TF series is perfectly fine but nowhere close to the power and flexibility of its big siblings the QL and CL series. If it was all that was available to me, I would sigh heavily and then probably have no problems with it at all. Yamaha builds quality.

I gently recommend against PreSonus because I think their gear doesn’t sound very good. I’ve had noise problems with them, I’ve had weird flaky fader jitters… they just behave as though they’re cheap.

I enthusiastically recommend against Behringer/Midas, not because of the poor ethics of their parent company but because their hardware reliability is a roll of the dice. Some people buy an X32 and it lasts them years without trouble. Other people have total console failures within six months.

It’s often said that you get what you pay for, but it’s also true that you pay for what you get. You can either pay in money up front with Yamaha or Allen & Heath, or you can pay in stress, last minute scrambling, and potential show cancellation with the X32.

This is, again, simply my opinion and experience working as a sound designer and associate sound designer.

Speaking with my Figure 53 hat on, all I have to say about all these consoles is that the X32/M32 has probably the best and most thorough OSC implementation of any console at any price point, and I genuinely am impressed by that.

Best

Sam

 

—

Sam Kusnetz (he/him) | Figure 53

s...@figure53.com

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qlab/CAC0O823FFJLuAgrkap_xoD83emRwtKKFfZFyBSzy%2BSocVD9hEg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Joe Wilson]

I don't have any direct experience, but I've heard nothing but misery and regret from folks who bought a TF series console and expected to do anything resembling theatre mixing on it.

It seems to be geared toward simplified operation, well suited for park-and-bark events, small houses of worship, school cafetoriums, and other such places where simplicity of operation trumps flexibility and control.  I wouldn't be terribly concerned to see one in a venue that does mostly playback and light reinforcement, but I'd raise my eyebrows at the choice if you are in a place that's using wireless on actors, or are doing concerts.

~joe

On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 9:52 PM Tom Colburn <powers...@gmail.com> wrote:

Anyone have any thoughts on the Yamaha TF 3 or 5? How would any of these board choices be impacted by mostly volunteers with varying experience being the users?

Tom

[Felix.di...@me.com]

Hey, I would also recommend the sq5, preferably with a Dante card and the 16/8 sLink stagebox. That would stretch your budget, but the  quality and flexibility is amazing. 

The board sounds great, is super powerful. And when set up by someone who has a little experience with the board it can then be used by noobies as well. 

[BoatHippie]

I know they're not as new or as powerful as the recent A&H stuff but I have never had an M32 (or X32) fail during a show. Or fail at all. This is over 30 musicals using 6 different consoles. Just sayin'...

[Mike Post]

To me A&H SQ versus Behringer M32 is largely a matter of taste - they're both fine consoles.  I think the Behringer/Midas technology is still considered better, but personally, I find the programming a bit arcane and opted for the SQ so I had something I could use to train novice students.  I have access to an M32 (and Yamaha and Avid) so I can cross train after I get the concepts across, but the SQ is a friendlier way into the basics IM(ns)HO.

That being said, I'd love a better meter setup for my SQ.  Anyone know if there's a meter bridge available?  I didn't see one when I started digging.

Mike Post

http://mdpostdesign.com

mdp...@mac.com

On Apr 13, 2023, at 9:56 AM, BoatHippie <capts...@gmail.com> wrote:

I know they're not as new or as powerful as the recent A&H stuff but I have never had an M32 (or X32) fail during a show. Or fail at all. This is over 30 musicals using 6 different consoles. Just sayin'...

--
Contact support anytime: sup...@figure53.com
Follow QLab on Twitter: https://twitter.com/QLabApp
User Group Code of Conduct: https://qlab.app/code-of-conduct/
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "QLab" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qlab+uns...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qlab/b3456241-59f2-42d3-95dc-6acebfa9d882n%40googlegroups.com.

[Sam Kusnetz]

On Apr 13, 2023 at 1:29:29 PM, Mike Post <mdpost...@gmail.com> wrote:

I know they're not as new or as powerful as the recent A&H stuff but I have never had an M32 (or X32) fail during a show. Or fail at all. This is over 30 musicals using 6 different consoles. Just sayin'...

I do not dispute this whatsoever, but six consoles over thirty shows is a relatively small sample size.

I have never, ever heard of even one show-stopping failure of a modern Yamaha or Allen&Heath console. I have heard of several cases of an X32 just dying.

Now of course, my anecdotal information isn’t more significant than anyone else’s. But to me, even a few anecdotes of total failure are enough to make me skeptical.

[Seablade -]

On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 2:38 PM Sam Kusnetz <s...@figure53.com> wrote:

I have never, ever heard of even one show-stopping failure of a modern Yamaha or Allen&Heath console. I have heard of several cases of an X32 just dying.

Anecdotes!

I have had A&H consoles fail on me in multiple ways ranging from storage failures to faders going crazy to stageracks that don't boot up properly, and pretty sure I have had a Yamaha fail as well(More than the standard pots going out, though I think only one ever, their stageboxes can be picky about changing setups though).  And of course I have had x32s/m32s fail, but all of these pale in comparison to the failures of Studiolives in my experience:)  That being said for dependability I will tend to reach for Yammie first, then A&H etc. then x32/m32, maybe an Avid if you paid me _really_ well(Especially the S6L), and only if you twist my arm till it breaks will I reach for a studiolive.

Heck I am currently dealing with Lakes lm44s that are failing intermittently, and those were relatively bomb proof before that.  Everything can (And will) fail.  Murphy still reigns supreme.

       Thomas

[Graham Coates]

For theatre type stuff, you could even go with the Behringer X32.  Exactly the same operating system, but with lower quality preamps built in.  I’ve heard both, and in a theatre space, you’re never going to know the difference.

Perhaps if you’re in a sound booth you’d be able to tell the difference, but yeah.  The X32 might be more cost effective?

-Graham

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qlab/4bee2c1a-d554-484f-b556-460a3361d1f6n%40googlegroups.com.

[Jake Perrine]

We had a Presonus 32.4.2 AI (previous generation to Series III) in our 216 seat theatre and we upgraded to the A&H SQ6, and the sound quality difference was immediately noticeable.  The iOS apps for remote control are good, and we’ve had no issues with the console, sound wise.  For the money, 48 channels of inputs is great.  We got a 24 channel digital snake to go with our 24 channel analogue snake, and having both, one at each side of stage, is a quite helpful.

I’ve delved into the SQ MIDI implementation (the control layer is all done with SYSEX MIDI) with hopes of control from Qlab, and it is possible, albeit not straightforward.  It took a lot of trial and error and back and forth with forums and A&H support to get it to work.  I’ve not put it to the test on a bigger show yet, but I plan to.

We also use Qlab for lighting over Art-Net.  The one challenge I’ve faced is that, for some reason I have yet to uncover, moving certain faders on the SQ will change the color of some of our LED lights when the USB cable from the SQ is plugged into the Qlab Mac controlling lights.  It is not a Qlab lighting dashboard MIDI binding (which I also use sometimes from a different dedicated MIDI controller, but have double checked there are not bindings active on the lights that are affected).  But otherwise, very few complaints on the SQ6.  Recommended.

Cheers,

Jake Perrine

Artistic Director 
Orcas Center
c: 360-317-8751
www.orcascenter.org

Upcoming Events

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "QLab" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/qlab/-RdirSxQnqA/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to qlab+uns...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qlab/3FC1B269-ECA4-4973-B441-AADE8BA628D7%40gmail.com.

[Rich Walsh]

If this is the correct MIDI Protocol document, then it is NOT SysEx: https://www.allen-heath.com/media/SQ-MIDI-Protocol-Issue4.pdf.

We’ve been over this on this forum quite a few times… Most recently https://groups.google.com/g/qlab/c/tU31TfMMZX4/m/GYf034NZAwAJ.

It should be straightforward to control that console from QLab, it’s just that the A&H documentation is very confusing if you don’t already know MIDI inside out – and therefore what you are looking for.

Rich

[FL K]

Hi Sam,

Speaking to you with your Figure53 hat on... and as always dream big or go home ;)... how cool would it be if we had a similar functionality for MIDI devices that we have for OSC - I.e. implemented dictionaries 😉?

And, even bigger, then the royal way would be to amalgamate MIDI and Network into "Communications"... with a patch level similar to an LX fixture or Video Stage/Route... so that you could route from a generic "audio desk" control patch to an audio desk while keeping your cue lists identical... if you go from one venue to the next, from a (eg A&H) MIDI desk to a (eg M32) OSC desk... all you would need to change would be your Communications route. And the same could be implemented for LX desks... (looking at you, GrandMA2 vs EOS or GrandMA3)

very big dreaming, I know, just dreaming it out loud 😉. Cheers, Freddy 

[Sam Kusnetz]

Hi Freddy

Speaking to you with your Figure53 hat on... and as always dream big or go home ;)... how cool would it be if we had a similar functionality for MIDI devices that we have for OSC - I.e. implemented dictionaries 😉?

It’s a nice idea, but the trouble is that many consoles don’t have a fixed MIDI implementation. On a Yamaha CL series console, for example, you can completely customize which messages do what. It would be completely impossible for QLab to maintain any kind of dictionary for the CL since there would be no way for us to know how any individual person set up their console.

And, even bigger, then the royal way would be to amalgamate MIDI and Network into "Communications"... with a patch level similar to an LX fixture or Video Stage/Route...

I’m interested in learning more about this idea, because for me (as a user of QLab) the separation of MIDI and Network cues is hugely valuable. I wouldn’t want them combined! Can you tell me more about how you feel this would help you?

so that you could route from a generic "audio desk" control patch to an audio desk while keeping your cue lists identical... if you go from one venue to the next, from a (eg A&H) MIDI desk to a (eg M32) OSC desk... all you would need to change would be your Communications route.

That seems very challenging to me. Different consoles have wildly different capabilities. If you use a Yamaha CL console, you have four-band parametric EQ on each input. If you use an Allen & Heath SQ6, you have six-band. How should QLab behave when switching between those?

In any case, have you ever seen or used Palladium? I haven’t, but it seems to me like it might be exactly what you’re looking for:

https://chsounddesign.com/palladium.php

And the same could be implemented for LX desks... (looking at you, GrandMA2 vs EOS or GrandMA3)

Again, the Eos and the GrandMA are just so completely different in how they work and how they conceptualize a show, I don’t know what kind of automatic translation could be possible without making a lot of big assumptions.

Plus, GrandMA doesn’t even publish an OSC dictionary, so there’s not much to work with in the first place.

[Seablade -]

On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 8:17 AM Sam Kusnetz <s...@figure53.com> wrote:

so that you could route from a generic "audio desk" control patch to an audio desk while keeping your cue lists identical... if you go from one venue to the next, from a (eg A&H) MIDI desk to a (eg M32) OSC desk... all you would need to change would be your Communications route.

That seems very challenging to me. Different consoles have wildly different capabilities. If you use a Yamaha CL console, you have four-band parametric EQ on each input. If you use an Allen & Heath SQ6, you have six-band. How should QLab behave when switching between those?

In any case, have you ever seen or used Palladium? I haven’t, but it seems to me like it might be exactly what you’re looking for:

https://chsounddesign.com/palladium.php

A different option that does this:

https://theatremix.com/

Used to be x32tc, has expanded to a few modern consoles now and isn't that expensive, quite nice for what it is and the price.  HIGHLY recommended if you have a console that it supports.

    Thomas

[FL K]

Hi Sam and Thomas,

Thank you for the reply and the suggestions - interesting to know that there are also a few other tools with this goal in mind :).

On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 22:17:45 UTC+10 sam kusnetz wrote:

It’s a nice idea, but the trouble is that many consoles don’t have a fixed MIDI implementation. On a Yamaha CL series console, for example, you can completely customize which messages do what. It would be completely impossible for QLab to maintain any kind of dictionary for the CL since there would be no way for us to know how any individual person set up their console.

That makes sense, did not know that.

 

And, even bigger, then the royal way would be to amalgamate MIDI and Network into "Communications"... with a patch level similar to an LX fixture or Video Stage/Route...

I’m interested in learning more about this idea, because for me (as a user of QLab) the separation of MIDI and Network cues is hugely valuable. I wouldn’t want them combined! Can you tell me more about how you feel this would help you?

Well, a particular showcase I come across regularly is going with a show that runs cues on LX desks or say mutes a channel, pans a channel, sets the fader on a channel via QLab, and the next venue has a different desk (in particular, ETC EOS vs GrandMA2 is quite prevalent), so currently, when it comes to LX at least, I am working with this by writing conversion scripts that build OSC / MIDI cues from scratch, based on the existing LX MIDI / OSC cues, and then delete the unused ones... doable, but not as smooth as a patch situation.

I am also interested in learning why in particular you cherish the separation between MIDI and Network? To me, it seems a somewhat natural progression, in the same way we went from "OSC" to "Network" - getting more generic in terms of overarching term, while bringing more under the mantle. To me, "MIDI" and "Network" are both a logical subset of something like "Control Communications".

 

so that you could route from a generic "audio desk" control patch to an audio desk while keeping your cue lists identical... if you go from one venue to the next, from a (eg A&H) MIDI desk to a (eg M32) OSC desk... all you would need to change would be your Communications route.

That seems very challenging to me. Different consoles have wildly different capabilities. If you use a Yamaha CL console, you have four-band parametric EQ on each input. If you use an Allen & Heath SQ6, you have six-band. How should QLab behave when switching between those?

I guess by either catering to a minimum common denominator, or by flagging cues as broken when they do something specific that is not implemented in the desk that is has been patched to?

 

In any case, have you ever seen or used Palladium? I haven’t, but it seems to me like it might be exactly what you’re looking for:

https://chsounddesign.com/palladium.php

Nice tool by the looks of it! Though even nicer if the functionality was in QLab - but like I said, I understand it would be quite an undertaking :).

 

And the same could be implemented for LX desks... (looking at you, GrandMA2 vs EOS or GrandMA3)

Again, the Eos and the GrandMA are just so completely different in how they work and how they conceptualize a show, I don’t know what kind of automatic translation could be possible without making a lot of big assumptions.

True, of course, but then again - 90% of what I do (not sure about other people's practice) is running cues, or setting submaster levels, or execute a macro... 

 

Plus, GrandMA doesn’t even publish an OSC dictionary, so there’s not much to work with in the first place.

Yes, and GrandMA2 was only MIDI; There is some info on the GrandMA3 website, but it does not seem to have a neat dictionary, sadly. https://help2.malighting.com/Page/grandMA3/remote_inputs_osc/en/1.8

 

Anyway, thank you for responding in depth! Always interesting to hear how another heavy user sees/perceives the direction/needs of where a software could go based on their own practice as well as company insights :).

Cheers,

Freddy

[Geep]

Freddie, I am a long time Palladium user, and can say that it works very well.  I work with high school and middle school students with shows that generally are no more than about 3 weeks for a run, so teaching students line by line mixing is a great challenge, at least for me.  Palladium allows me to program a show with automated mutes so the mixing student can concentrate on the mix.  It can also use OSC to call Qlab cues by number.  Unfortunately, it is Windows only so using Qlab will involve two computers.

Chris has numerous mixer files on his site for many of the commonly used desks, and implementing the MIDI or OSC functions is not hard to do if you have some knowledge of how they work.  His help files detail the process.

I’ve generated mixer files for many of the A&H desks, starting with the ML 3000 series, latest is for dLive.  SQ’s midi set is not nearly as supportive of functions as dLive or Avantis, so I haven’t come up with anything more than an Alpha file yet.  Don’t have one to test on either.

Chris offers a 30 trial that is full function, so you might give it a shot and see if having mixer files set up for the desks you see most often is helpful.

Geep

[micpool]

Of course, it may well be the case that for simple 2 state control needs like Ch Mutes, you may well already have the best software  for displaying a grid of the show with the mute state of each channel clearly shown, and with all the tools necessary (and a few hundred tools that are complete overkill )  to edit and reorder mute states as necessary.

I'm talking about EXCEL!

All that's needed is a way of translating info in the spreadsheet to mute states on a console, which can be done through QLab with a single script as in this screen recording



Mic

[Tom Colburn]

Mind blown!  Thanks Mic!

I started this thread with what I thought was a rather simple question! It’s grown into so much more! Thank you everyone for your comments, opinions/recommendations and even the tangents! I’ve loved it all! (Don’t stop just because this may sound like a close.)

I’m relatively new to QLabs, and joke that I’m a fledgling power user now that I have to rent a lighting license for more DMX channels for LED lights! 😂 

As for audio, while I started in tech decades ago as an audio tech, I’ve yet to work with a theatre that needs (strike that) USES more than the free features of the audio module, and that’s why I started this thread! I want to change that, particularly for the one theatre that has a dozen wireless mics!

Thanks again, everyone! I look forward to where this thread (and the other threads in the group) go next!

Tom

--
Contact support anytime: sup...@figure53.com
Follow QLab on Twitter: https://twitter.com/QLabApp
User Group Code of Conduct: https://qlab.app/code-of-conduct/
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "QLab" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qlab+uns...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qlab/116e9600-1268-4d8e-a404-0a094e4916f9n%40googlegroups.com.