Nikkor 10.5mm and D7100--problems stitching

[James Hennis]

 Hello and just wanted to know if anyone else has this lens or similiar set up

 It is calling my lens which is a DX...a Full Frame lens...which I thought it was a crop sensor lens. Not sure

 if I am doing something wrong in the set up.

 I have done my best to ride the Parallax issue...I am using a NN4 with RD4 rotator....everything seems to be great on the set up.

When I do a panorama this is what I been doing.

 6 shots in portrait mode...rotating at 60degrees...1 nadir with camera pointed directly at floor....1 zenith with camera pointed at ceiling

 It is an 8 foot ceiling and I have the camera about in the middle of this distance

....The room is probably 20 feet by 15 feet  

 

 There are wood beams spaced about every 4 feet across the ceiling.

  Everything seems to be stitching properly except the beams are a little unaligned on only 2 of them, everything else looks great.

  Just curious if there is something that I need to check for, or not doing. Anyone else can give some tips on this topic it would be greatly appreciated

Thank you

 

[Erik Krause]

Am 12.01.2016 um 19:47 schrieb James Hennis:
> Everything seems to be stitching properly except the beams are a little
> unaligned on only 2 of them, everything else looks great.

The Nikkor 10.5 has a somehow extreme fisheye mapping, but should still
be possible to stitch if used correctly.

Hard to tell anything from a description only. Could you make the source
images and the project file available?

Please do not add attachments to your posts; instead upload your files
at a file sharing site (for example http://ge.tt/ ) and include a link
in your message.

--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de

[JPS]

From http://www.vrwave.com/panoramic-lens-database/nikon/

Nikon 10.5mm f/2.8G ED DX Fisheye

Field of view (FOV) - horizontal, vertical, diagonal:

• Full-frame=10.5mm, HFOV: n/a° | VFOV: n/a° | DFOV: n/a°
• 1.5x=15.75mm, HFOV: 139° | VFOV: 87° | DFOV: 173°
  

Number of pictures required for a 360° panorama:

• Minimum (full-frame): N, 3 images every 120°, if the lens shade is cut off (no zenith shot is required)
• Recommended (full-frame): use the Nikon 16mm fisheye or the Sigma 15mm (6+2)
• Minimum (1.5x): N, 5 images every 72° at 0° pitch (18% overlap), Z
• Recommended (1.5x): N, 6 images every 60° at 0° pitch (32% overlap), Z

[James Hennis]

Thanks JPS also for reaching out...This is a brand new thing for me, I do appreciate all the help.

Since I am using the D7100 and 10.5dx lens, I will do the 6 shot portrait and Z, and N...The project files

and source images will be uploaded on the thread soon.

One question I have...What would be the consequences of me shooting 8 shots every 45 Degrees,  plus N, D

                                    Would that be more confusing for the software, would better? 

    Thank you

[PTGui Support]

Hi James,

To PTGui it doesn't matter much how you took the panorama as long as
there is some overlap between the photos. 6 or 8 shots per row, either
would be fine.

Kind regards,

New House Internet Services BV
Joost Nieuwenhuijse

-----------------------------------------------
PTGui - Photo Stitching Software

www.ptgui.com
For support see: http://www.ptgui.com/faq/
-----------------------------------------------

On 12/01/2016 22:46, James Hennis wrote:
> Thanks JPS also for reaching out...This is a brand new thing for me, I
> do appreciate all the help.
>
> Since I am using the D7100 and 10.5dx lens, I will do the 6 shot
> portrait and Z, and N...The project files
> and source images will be uploaded on the thread soon.
>
> One question I have...What would be the consequences of me shooting 8
> shots every 45 Degrees, plus N, D
> Would that be more confusing for
> the software, would better?
> Thank you
>
> On Tuesday, January 12, 2016 at 2:06:13 PM UTC-6, JPS wrote:
>
> From http://www.vrwave.com/panoramic-lens-database/nikon/

> <http://www.vrwave.com/panoramic-lens-database/nikon/>
>
>
> *Nikon 10.5mm f/2.8G ED DX Fisheye*
>
> *Nikon 10.5mm FisheyeField of view (FOV)* - horizontal, vertical,
> diagonal:
>
> * Full-frame=10.5mm, HFOV: n/a° | VFOV: n/a° | DFOV: n/a°
> * 1.5x=15.75mm, HFOV: 139° | VFOV: 87° | DFOV: 173°
>
> *Number of pictures required for a 360° panorama:*
>
> * Minimum (full-frame): N, 3 images every 120°, if the lens shade

> is cut off (no zenith shot is required)

> * Recommended (full-frame): use the Nikon 16mm fisheye or the
> Sigma 15mm (6+2)
> * _*Minimum (1.5x): N, 5 images every 72° at 0° pitch (18%
> overlap), Z*_
> * _*Recommended (1.5x): N, 6 images every 60° at 0° pitch (32%
> overlap), Z*_
>
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[Roger D Williams]

I shot with this lens and similar cameras (a Nikon D200 then the D300). Six is enough, and you can get away with either a single nadir or a single zenith shot if you point the camera slightly up (or down) respectively. You can actually get away with just the six around if you use a ring mount and turn the camera until the diagonal of the frame is vertical. This reduces the number of shots and the consequent stitching, but if there are a lot of people in your scenes, the non-vertical seams can result in leg-less (or head-less) people and involve you in finicky masking to get clear seams.

But if you have LOTS of moving people in your shots, it can be better to take more shots, certainly eight at 45 degrees, or even 12 at 30 degrees (I usually took six around but went  around twice and picked the shots that gave the best seams.

It's a nice, bright lens and very sharp. You should be happy with it!

Roger W

Sent from my iPad

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[RoyReed]

This is exactly my setup, albeit with a different pano head and I always make 8 shots (6 around, zenith and nadir).

The 10.5 fisheye is being described as full frame, because that's what it is - a full frame fisheye (as opposed to one that produces a circular image). It has nothing to do with sensor size.

 

[PTGui Support]

It's difficult to see but I think I see some parallax; look at the
fridge behind the doorpost in two images. It's not that much but the
wooden beams in the ceiling are very unforgiving to stitching errors.

You should be able to get a good result after adjusting the panoramic head.

BTW your images are taken in automatic exposure mode; I'd recommend to
use manual exposure instead.

Kind regards,

New House Internet Services BV
Joost Nieuwenhuijse

-----------------------------------------------
PTGui - Photo Stitching Software

www.ptgui.com
For support see: http://www.ptgui.com/faq/
-----------------------------------------------

On 12/01/16 22:49, mechala matthews wrote:
> Link to images: http://ge.tt/3Khe8gV2 It is always the Zenith that
> causes the issues in all the shots.

> **//___^

>
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[Keith Martin]

On 12 Jan 2016, at 18:47, James Hennis wrote:

> It is calling my lens which is a DX...a Full Frame lens...which I
> thought it was a crop sensor lens.

Hi James,
This is indeed a DX lens, which means it's designed to work with a
crop-sensor (DX) camera body. With one of those, the image it produces
fills the sensor, corner to corner. That's why it can be known as a
full-frame fisheye lens, as opposed to 'circular' fisheye lenses which
make a complete image circle within the sensor area.

Yes, it's confusing when we also refer to sensors as full-frame or
cropped (DX, APS-C, etc). :)

What adds to the complication is that the 10.5mm fisheye lens
(full-frame on a DX sensor) is often used for panorama work with
full-frame sensor camera bodies, with its sun shade removed to take
advantage of more of the glass. When this is done the full-frame DX lens
produces a partially-cropped circular fisheye image on a full-frame
sensor body. Oh boy...

k

[John Houghton]

On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 1:27:24 PM UTC, PTGui Support wrote:

It's difficult to see but I think I see some parallax; look at the
fridge behind the doorpost in two images. It's not that much but the
wooden beams in the ceiling are very unforgiving to stitching errors.

You should be able to get a good result after adjusting the panoramic head.

BTW your images are taken in automatic exposure mode; I'd recommend to
use manual exposure instead.

The images were shot with auto white balance and this should be avoided also.

The images are in mixed orientations too.  The orientation sensor does not give sensible data when the camera points directly up or down, so the images can easily be upside down as compared to the shots with the camera level.  This does matter because of the way that the lens shift corrections are applied.  The problems can easily be avoided by switching off the auto rotate feature in the camera, which is recommended.  The reflections in the mirror in any case show the camera in an unconventional orientation, though this is ok if that's preferred.

My optimizations were much poorer than I would expect, given the small degree of parallax evident.  Setting individual lens parameters seems to help quite a bit.  Could it be that auto focus was also used?

John

[Ali Saleh AlAbbad]

What they mean by( 0° pitch (32% overlap), Z) with blue Color?

6 images every 60° at 0° pitch (32% overlap), Z

[PTGui Support]

They seem to mean that you get 32% overlap if you take 6 images around.

Kind regards,

New House Internet Services BV
Joost Nieuwenhuijse

-----------------------------------------------
PTGui - Photo Stitching Software

www.ptgui.com
For support see: http://www.ptgui.com/faq/
-----------------------------------------------

On 10/02/2016 12:13, Ali Saleh AlAbbad wrote:
> What they mean by( _*0° pitch (32% overlap), Z) *_with blue Color?
> _*6 images every 60° at 0° pitch (32% overlap), Z*_

>
> On Tuesday, January 12, 2016 at 11:06:13 PM UTC+3, JPS wrote:
>
> From http://www.vrwave.com/panoramic-lens-database/nikon/

> <http://www.vrwave.com/panoramic-lens-database/nikon/>
>
>
> *Nikon 10.5mm f/2.8G ED DX Fisheye*
>
> *Nikon 10.5mm FisheyeField of view (FOV)* - horizontal, vertical,
> diagonal:
>

> * Full-frame=10.5mm, HFOV: n/a° | VFOV: n/a° | DFOV: n/a°
> * 1.5x=15.75mm, HFOV: 139° | VFOV: 87° | DFOV: 173°
>
> *Number of pictures required for a 360° panorama:*
>
> * Minimum (full-frame): N, 3 images every 120°, if the lens shade

> is cut off (no zenith shot is required)

> * Recommended (full-frame): use the Nikon 16mm fisheye or the
> Sigma 15mm (6+2)
> * _*Minimum (1.5x): N, 5 images every 72° at 0° pitch (18%
> overlap), Z*_
> * _*Recommended (1.5x): N, 6 images every 60° at 0° pitch (32%
> overlap), Z*_
>
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[iulianaio...@gmail.com]

James,
It is a old problem on PTGUI with beams. PTGUI have problems when exist beams, many times.
Do a test: try to stick the photos  with APG and see the results.

[PTGui Support]

This is nonsense, PTGui does not have any particular problems with
beams. It's just that beams, tiles, etc are very unforgiving to parallax
errors. The panohead should be set up perfectly for any good result.

Joost

[RoyReed]

As Joost says this is rubbish. Here's an example shot with a Nikon D7100 and 10.5mm lens (exactly the same as the OP) that has one or two beams. I don't think you'll find any errors. reeddesign.co.uk/panoramas/cornwall/stcolumbminor.html

[iulianaio...@gmail.com]

Cross beams.

[iulianaio...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 12:49:53 PM UTC+2, iulianaio...@gmail.com wrote:

Cross beams.

 

   "On Monday, May 5, 2014 1:41 PM, PTGui Support <sup...@ptgui.com> wrote:
   Yes the carpet is something which gives PTGui problems.  We may be able
   to improve this in a future version. I'm sure there are cases where autopano will fail."...in fact it is not the 
   carpet....but  the cross beams.

[ekbmuts]

James,  My advice is :  don't blame your tools (I realize that you're not).  Be a professional and calibrate that NN4 within an inch of its life.  I have one and it took a bit.  Personally, I recommend the "window" method as laid out by John Houghton in a tutorial that he can provide the link for.

In my (limited) experience, having the NN4 set precisely is even more important in small spaces, such as you describe.  Miles-wide panos and you'd never notice.   Shoot a pano in a fridge or a closet with a questionable calibration of the camera on the NN4 and you're in for trouble.

Saying that PTGui has trouble with beams is like saying that a BMW has trouble steering on ice. The help file covers what situations give PTGui a challenge - things like no control points, repeating features on both sides of a pano, moire, etc.  Beams is not one of them.

I've used PTGui for a year now.  Never had a problem with it once.  Just set up the camera right,  put it in Manual exposure, Manual focus, Manual white balance (nothing automatic at all) and shoot away.

Practice makes perfect!

Jon

[iulianaio...@gmail.com]

I've used PTGui for a year now.

I have license on PTGUI around 4 years ago :)

Saying that PTGui has trouble with beams

Not with beams. But with cross beams.
 

 

[Erik Krause]

Am 14.02.2016 um 16:49 schrieb iulianaio...@gmail.com:

> Not with beams. But with cross beams.

Please show evidence, if you insist on that. Upload a complete set of
images to some file sharing site (f.e. http://ge.tt/ ) so that we can
have a look. Half size jpegs would do...

[iulianaio...@gmail.com]

Erik,

You can you believe it or not. It's your choice. 
I know what happened and I am not alone - the problem first appears 
in this group in 2010 - do a research ....

[UtahBob]

On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 12:49:53 PM UTC+2, iulianaio...@gmail.com wrote:

Cross beams.

 

   "On Monday, May 5, 2014 1:41 PM, PTGui Support <sup...@ptgui.com> wrote:
   Yes the carpet is something which gives PTGui problems.  We may be able
   to improve this in a future version. I'm sure there are cases where autopano will fail."...in fact it is not the 
   carpet....but  the cross beams.

Can you provide the full post from which this quote comes from.  It does not exist  on the PTGui forum nor on my local email system that has every email from early 2012 until now..  Is this post actually on the PTGui forum or on another forum such as APG?

I'd like to understand better why the comment on cross beams - in other words, the context of why it was said.  Over the last few days I've tried the "research" you now suggested to Erik but come up empty.

Oh, and I've been using PTGui close to 9 years now ... pretty much when I bought my 10.5 mm :) 

[John Houghton]

On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 10:39:34 AM UTC, RoyReed wrote:

As Joost says this is rubbish. Here's an example shot with a Nikon D7100 and 10.5mm lens (exactly the same as the OP) that has one or two beams. I don't think you'll find any errors.

Well actually there are some small errors visible, (along with some uncorrected chromatic aberration) :

http://www.johnhpanos.com/temp/beams.jpg

John

[iulianaio...@gmail.com]

Here are the files:

http://fastupload.rol.ro/07843971c1eb505c502d100fd164913a.html

Same files - made panoramas with PTGUI and same files make panorama with APG.

Ge.tt is a very slow service (free)
Here is the link from ge.tt : http://ge.tt/9qGAd2Y2

[Karel Gillissen]

Well, you must have done something wrong in PTGui then, as I get a fairly good result on my first try:

http://360vr.nl/Temp/test.jpg

I don’t see any problem with PTGui here….

Karel

360vr.nl

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[John Houghton]

On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 at 6:14:35 PM UTC, iulianaio...@gmail.com wrote:

James,
It is a old problem on PTGUI with beams. PTGUI have problems when exist beams, many times.

Some of the contributors here have, like me, been using PTGui since 2000 and are all too familiar with stitching errors and their causes.  As far as PTGui is concerned, there is not really anything special about the zenith, and any problems there are usually down to lack of care in the shooting of the images.  But there are other factors too, such as the fact that there is no unique NPP for a fisheye lens, which means that parallax cannot be perfectly corrected in all parts of the panorama.  Another frequently recurring problem is the one of the "upside down" zenith or nadir shot, due to the unfortunate reliance on the camera's fallible auto rotation feature, which commonly results in stitching errors in those regions.  As for the period from 2000, it was around then that the Nodal Ninja R1 and R10 heads were introduced, which might in part account for some of the increase in the number of reports of zenith stitching problems, if such was the case.  These being single row heads, they are more likely to give problems at the zenith owing to the parallax issues with fisheye lenses that might otherwise be readily avoided or covered up by separate zenith shots that are possible with a full spherical head.

John

[Erik Krause]

Am 14.02.2016 um 17:59 schrieb iulianaio...@gmail.com:
> http://fastupload.rol.ro/07843971c1eb505c502d100fd164913a.html
>
> Same files - made panoramas with PTGUI and same files make panorama with
> APG.

I threw the files on PTGui, pressed "Align images" and got that:
http://ge.tt/3dQTe2Y2
without any further intervention except two pairs of vertical control
points.

You sample PTGui panorama shows that you have completely wrong lens
correction parameters. If you additionally provide the project file we
can have a look what actually went wrong.

[Karel Gillissen]

From the sample panorama it looks like you told PTGui that your lens is a circular Fisheye and not a FullFrame one

Karel

360vr.nl

On 14 February 2016 at 17:59:18, iulianaio...@gmail.com (iulianaio...@gmail.com) wrote:

[Erik Krause]

Am 14.02.2016 um 18:30 schrieb Karel Gillissen:
> From the sample panorama it looks like you told PTGui that your lens
> is a circular Fisheye and not a FullFrame one

This would be important only, if the image circle was smaller than the
actual image. It's only the crop type which is different for both types,
the geometry is the same. I stitch all my images as circular despite the
lens being full frame, since this avoids the heavily distorted corners.

[Karel Gillissen]

Yes, but you are aware what you are doing… :-)

Karel

360vr.nl

[John Houghton]

On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 5:25:47 PM UTC, John Houghton wrote:

 As for the period from 2000, it was around then that the Nodal Ninja R1 and R10 heads were introduced,

Oops - typo:  should be 2010, not 2000.

John 

[John Houghton]

On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 4:59:16 PM UTC, iulianaio...@gmail.com wrote:

Here are the files:

http://fastupload.rol.ro/07843971c1eb505c502d100fd164913a.html

The images stitch fine - except one of the nadir images is upside down.  It is perfectly obvious that one of the two images is wrong, since the vertical arm should appear in the same position in the frame for both shots.  Just think about it for a moment:  as you rotate the head by 180 degrees, the vertical arm stays fixed at one side of the frame since both the arm and the camera are fixed together.  Putting the vertical arm to the left stitches best, so I believe that to be the correct orientation.  And of course auto everything has been used to give varying aperture, shutter time, and ISO, which does nothing to ease blending.

John

[JPS]

@ John Houghton !

Just a question,John ! What's the difference in the image if I put the camera on the LEFT or on the Right of the arm ?

I have chosen to put it with the arm on the right, because then the shutter button is on top !

Is there another reason why it's better ?

TIA...

[JPS]

Oooops ! My bad ! As usual I hit the SEND button before to check my post :-( !

In reality, I meant to say that "I chose to put my camera on the LEFT of the arm, so that the shutter button is on top" !

Sorry....

[John Houghton]

Ptgui doesn't mind which side you use.You generally get bigger clearance at the base when you rotate the camera upwards if you mount with the vertical rail on the right.  Access to the shutter button is not a problem when using a remote release (cable or wireless). 

John

[John Houghton]

Here's my 6000x3000 finished panorama image:  http://www.johnhpanos.com/temp/beams6000.jpg .

John

[iulianaio...@gmail.com]

Do you use Win or Mac?
I use Win 7 on 64.I reinstall the PTGUI, 10.0.15, and same bad result.
I think that PTGUI don't read each time the EXIF information as same.
I click on align button (with camera lens automatic  Exif on - fullframe fisheye is default) - and the focal lenght is 10.5.
Result a panorama. Bad stick - as you saw.
Go to assistant.
Now, the  Exif was changed as 10.47
Click again on align button.
Make a panorama.
Go to project assistant.
The focal lenght is now 10.53 now...a sweet dream..

[iulianaio...@gmail.com]

The text was from an email send me by PTGUI suport exactly at those images.

[John Houghton]

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 7:37:39 AM UTC, iulianaio...@gmail.com wrote:

Do you use Win or Mac? 

I use Win 7 on 64.I reinstall the PTGUI, 10.0.15, and same bad result.

I use Win 10 on 64.  The upgrade from Win 7 is free at the moment. 

I think that PTGUI don't read each time the EXIF information as same.
I click on align button (with camera lens automatic  Exif on - fullframe fisheye is default) - and the focal lenght is 10.5.
Result a panorama. Bad stick - as you saw.

The reason for the bad result is probably that some bad control points have been generated.  The carpet has a pattern of repeating features, so it is not surprising that the generator finds matching features that are not in reality the same features.  That is what happened just now when I ran the Align function, which I very rarely use myself.  When a bad result is obtained, the thing to do is look for the cause and correct it.  Then rerun the optimizer rather than rerun the Align Images function, which is intended to be run only once.

John

[ekbmuts]

John, When you say that you rarely use the Align feature, is that because you generally hand place your control points rather than let PTGui do it automatically?  Meaning, rather than loading your images and right away hitting Align, you go through pairs of images individually and have PTGui set control points on just that pair and so on.  And, if you don't mind me asking, what advantage does that give you?

Jon

[John Houghton]

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 11:23:19 PM UTC, ekbmuts wrote:

John, When you say that you rarely use the Align feature, is that because you generally hand place your control points rather than let PTGui do it automatically?  Meaning, rather than loading your images and right away hitting Align, you go through pairs of images individually and have PTGui set control points on just that pair and so on.  And, if you don't mind me asking, what advantage does that give you?

It's all about control and being helpful to PTGui. The Align Images function may work very well for most projects, but it's by no means infallible. Those who rely upon it, are often not best equipped to deal with difficulties that can arise.  I stitch a lot of troublesome projects that are not my own, and I'm familiar with the many ways in which the stitching process can go awry.  One way of obtaining the best possible stitch is to proceed in steps, intelligently anticipating problems before they arise and taking appropriate avoidance action.  Like not having control points between images that don't actually overlap and not having control points on moving clouds, say, rather than hunting for these possible explanations after the optimizer reports a set of disappointing control point distances.  And why not help things along by telling PTGui things about the project that you already know, instead of leaving it to work everything out from scratch?  The optimizer works by attempting to improve the the current state of alignment by trialling small changes in the existing parameter values. Often, the yaw, pitch and roll values of most, if not all, of the images are quite accurately known - having been shot using a panorama head with detents.  So these values can be entered into the project, one way or another, with little effort.  If the lens parameters are to hand from previous projects, then these can be input too. PTGui may be left with very little to do - just fine tune an already reasonably good alignment, and of course you can choose precisely which parameters the optimizer is allowed to change.  So if the lens parameters end up with silly values (not unheard of), you can do a quick undo and fix them while you try alternative optimizations to try and identify the cause.

John

[ekbmuts]

John, That makes perfect sense!  Thanks!