I don't know how to deal with this gain staging issue in ProTools, please please help!
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Christopher Gilland
Dec 12, 2019, 11:21:09 AM12/12/19
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Guys, we've discussed this before, I think, quite some time back, but
the answers I got were kind of vague, and honestly, and this is of no
offense to any of you all, weren't very helpful at the time. That's no
fault of you all. It might have just been my knowledge/experience at
that time was not of such that I could fully grasp the concepts.
Here is the situation again though. Trust me, too. I've Googled like
crazy. I spent over about 3 hours last night Youtubing, and just
Googling in general and am coming up pretty much empty handed.
I normally record lead vocals on top of already purchased instrumental
tracks, so I'm not really normally working with stems. Once in a while,
I'll do something which takes more than 2 tracks, one for the music, one
for my vofal, but that's rare. Regardless, this is occuring.
In the past, I made a really really bad habbit of cranking my input gain
on the mike input way up. Well, OK, fine. Not way up, but up enough to
get good audible level going into PT. I obviously needed the level to be
balanced with the music track.
Problem is, that music track usually would have been mastered at gain
unity 0, which you know, anything above that, you're clipping. This
means anything I drove on top of the music track, that's gonna push my
master over that 0 no no limit. But! I had to. Or so I thought. It's the
only way I could get any good volume on my mike input.
So, a few things. First my hardware. This way you know what we're
working with. This interface is popular enough, surely you all know
enough at least about it to help. I'm running a Focusrite scarlet 2I2
interface, and the first generation of a Blue Bluebird microphone. Let
me be clear. This is the Bluebird, not the baby bottle. Again, the first
gen, not the 2nd, nor the beta.
Now, I'm trying to break that habbit of running my gain so hot. I'm
finding that with where my input dial on the scarlet now is set, I'm on
my peeks hitting probably around -13DB or so on average, and again,
that's on the loudest peeks of my vocals. Obviously, that's much much
better.
The problem is, when recording, obviously having the level that low, I
can't hear myself hardly at all in my cans. I normally have to get
around -2 to 0DB in my peek meter on the output of the vocal track in PT
before I can really hear myself well.. Also, when playing things back,
it's barely audible.
Obviously, same problem with my keyboard using a virtual synth, or for
that mind, patching it directly in the scarlet. As for my vocal, I get
that to hear it well in my cans, and on the final mix I could pop a
compressor on the vocal, like the Gray compressor, and set it to a
preset like steady, which very very significantly does boost the volume.
The only issue is, no, I'm not clipping, but adding compression for the
simple reason to boost that output gain is a horrible! idea in most
cases. It's adding color, sometimes saturation, etc. that I definitely
do not want into the mix taking away the natural beauty of the vocal
characteristics.
Yes, I could get a pre like a cloud lifter, but that's gonna present the
same issue. You turn up that input, bam! now you're clippen again. I
don't think the issue is on my input side. - I'm fully convinced of
that. This is an output thing. As level wize, my peek meter in PT is
showing just fine at -13 roughly.
I know I also could turn down the music track. Wayyyyy down. Then, add a
stereo master fader track, and turn it's output volume slider way way up
to compensate, but is that really the best methodology? I have to run
that thing with no plugs on the master fader up to nearly positive 8 or
9 DB to get the volume back to normal comfortable listening. Remember.
I'm trying to compensate for that lower -13DB level going in.
I don't think the Scarlet has a separate IO path output just for
headphones alone, so I can't exactly create a bus in the IO settings,
then send to it individually creating a submix.
On the master fader though, again, going to +8 or 9 DB... yeah! That's
barely giving any headroom at all. Maybe I have a ton on the mike, but,
yeah. I get I could turn up the output level itself on the vocal track
but is that really a safe thing to do? I was always told you wana try
keeping your vocal tracks output volume sliders as close to that default
0DB as possible. Only interact with Voiceover on those sliders and crank
them as a very last resort. I'm told you really wanna be using your
master, not the level of the mike tracks.
Basically all I'm trying to do is keep things at that -13 average, yet
get them loud enough to hear them through the mix. I could just crank up
the cans volume knob on the scarlet, or the main output volume fed to my
speakers, but then, again, I'm gonna have to then crank things almost to
the point of normal blaring level which means if I do anything listening
to a regular mp3 outside PT, or try doing anything with Voiceover, etc.
Yowel! Lookout! Can you say, ow, my aching ears?
I just don't know how to deal with this. I'm kind a damned if I do, and
I'm damned catch22 if i don't.
Chris.
the answers I got were kind of vague, and honestly, and this is of no
offense to any of you all, weren't very helpful at the time. That's no
fault of you all. It might have just been my knowledge/experience at
that time was not of such that I could fully grasp the concepts.
Here is the situation again though. Trust me, too. I've Googled like
crazy. I spent over about 3 hours last night Youtubing, and just
Googling in general and am coming up pretty much empty handed.
I normally record lead vocals on top of already purchased instrumental
tracks, so I'm not really normally working with stems. Once in a while,
I'll do something which takes more than 2 tracks, one for the music, one
for my vofal, but that's rare. Regardless, this is occuring.
In the past, I made a really really bad habbit of cranking my input gain
on the mike input way up. Well, OK, fine. Not way up, but up enough to
get good audible level going into PT. I obviously needed the level to be
balanced with the music track.
Problem is, that music track usually would have been mastered at gain
unity 0, which you know, anything above that, you're clipping. This
means anything I drove on top of the music track, that's gonna push my
master over that 0 no no limit. But! I had to. Or so I thought. It's the
only way I could get any good volume on my mike input.
So, a few things. First my hardware. This way you know what we're
working with. This interface is popular enough, surely you all know
enough at least about it to help. I'm running a Focusrite scarlet 2I2
interface, and the first generation of a Blue Bluebird microphone. Let
me be clear. This is the Bluebird, not the baby bottle. Again, the first
gen, not the 2nd, nor the beta.
Now, I'm trying to break that habbit of running my gain so hot. I'm
finding that with where my input dial on the scarlet now is set, I'm on
my peeks hitting probably around -13DB or so on average, and again,
that's on the loudest peeks of my vocals. Obviously, that's much much
better.
The problem is, when recording, obviously having the level that low, I
can't hear myself hardly at all in my cans. I normally have to get
around -2 to 0DB in my peek meter on the output of the vocal track in PT
before I can really hear myself well.. Also, when playing things back,
it's barely audible.
Obviously, same problem with my keyboard using a virtual synth, or for
that mind, patching it directly in the scarlet. As for my vocal, I get
that to hear it well in my cans, and on the final mix I could pop a
compressor on the vocal, like the Gray compressor, and set it to a
preset like steady, which very very significantly does boost the volume.
The only issue is, no, I'm not clipping, but adding compression for the
simple reason to boost that output gain is a horrible! idea in most
cases. It's adding color, sometimes saturation, etc. that I definitely
do not want into the mix taking away the natural beauty of the vocal
characteristics.
Yes, I could get a pre like a cloud lifter, but that's gonna present the
same issue. You turn up that input, bam! now you're clippen again. I
don't think the issue is on my input side. - I'm fully convinced of
that. This is an output thing. As level wize, my peek meter in PT is
showing just fine at -13 roughly.
I know I also could turn down the music track. Wayyyyy down. Then, add a
stereo master fader track, and turn it's output volume slider way way up
to compensate, but is that really the best methodology? I have to run
that thing with no plugs on the master fader up to nearly positive 8 or
9 DB to get the volume back to normal comfortable listening. Remember.
I'm trying to compensate for that lower -13DB level going in.
I don't think the Scarlet has a separate IO path output just for
headphones alone, so I can't exactly create a bus in the IO settings,
then send to it individually creating a submix.
On the master fader though, again, going to +8 or 9 DB... yeah! That's
barely giving any headroom at all. Maybe I have a ton on the mike, but,
yeah. I get I could turn up the output level itself on the vocal track
but is that really a safe thing to do? I was always told you wana try
keeping your vocal tracks output volume sliders as close to that default
0DB as possible. Only interact with Voiceover on those sliders and crank
them as a very last resort. I'm told you really wanna be using your
master, not the level of the mike tracks.
Basically all I'm trying to do is keep things at that -13 average, yet
get them loud enough to hear them through the mix. I could just crank up
the cans volume knob on the scarlet, or the main output volume fed to my
speakers, but then, again, I'm gonna have to then crank things almost to
the point of normal blaring level which means if I do anything listening
to a regular mp3 outside PT, or try doing anything with Voiceover, etc.
Yowel! Lookout! Can you say, ow, my aching ears?
I just don't know how to deal with this. I'm kind a damned if I do, and
I'm damned catch22 if i don't.
Chris.
Slau Halatyn
Dec 12, 2019, 11:27:17 AM12/12/19
to PTAccess List
Turn down the mastered track to a manageable level to accommodate your vocal recording. Once you've recorded the vocal, process the vocal to a comparable quality of compression and remix the two. You'll probably end up having to limit your vocal some if the music was mastered particularly hot.
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TheOreoMonster
Dec 12, 2019, 11:59:10 AM12/12/19
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Use Clip gain to bring down the level of the instrumental track so you can hear your vocals as needed. Once you mix your vocals you can use clip gain to adjust the level of the instrumental track back up a little if you need to get it to blend with the vocals better.
Christopher Gilland
Dec 12, 2019, 12:14:57 PM12/12/19
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Slau,
What Sweetwater actually told me is, lower the karaoke track in iTunes before importing it to PT.
I'm not totally sure how to do that, but anyway, then, once that is lowered to fit my vocal level, import into PT, then add my vocal track, but here's the catch. They told me, then, also add a stereo master fader. Then, take that master fader, and only use it as a gain adder. Meaning, you're not really per sé doing anything with the master fader more than using it to add gain. Then, move that master fader volume from it's default 0DB location back up to reach the normal audible level. Presto! Done!
I was always under the impression you really don't want a master fader though unless you're literally doing mastering type techniques. Or is that just it though: you kind of *are!* doing a mastering technique by doing this. All be it, you're not really doing anything substantial with the fader more than adding gain, but... still... Is that a way to go, or like me, can you see some potential problems with this method. I'm not really planning to add any final processing to the over all master mix like compression, dithering, final e queueing etc.
Chris.
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TheOreoMonster
Dec 12, 2019, 12:19:54 PM12/12/19
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I am surprised they gave you that complicat setup, especially considering iTunes doesn’t give you a way to export tracks once the volume has been lowered on them. Just use clip gain to lower the instrumental track and it basically does everything Sweetwater told you to do in one simple step.
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Christopher Gilland
Dec 12, 2019, 12:22:56 PM12/12/19
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Does that work though with monitoring in my cans before recording? That's the main issue. I know how to turn it back up after it's recorded, but the issue isn't after recorded. It's before. I'm trying to get it where at such a low level during the actual tracking process, I can hear what I need to hear through my cans without having to crank them to high heaven to compensate for the lower input signal.
Chris.
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TheOreoMonster
Dec 12, 2019, 12:27:31 PM12/12/19
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Why not just crank the headphone output so you can hear it during recording. Just turn VoiceOver’s Volume down you can do this quickly by using VO+Shift+Command+ left or Right arrows to find VoiceOver’s Volume, and then using VO+Shift+Command+Up and down arrows to turn the volume up or down. This allows you to adjust VO volume on the fly without leaving pro tools. Once you are done you can turn VoiceOver back up and turn the volume back down on the headphones. Use Notification Center to turn on do not disturb while recording so you aren’t interrupted with any system sounds while recording so nothing will blast your ears out.
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mcdi...@gmail.com
Dec 12, 2019, 12:30:16 PM12/12/19
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Why not use a trem plugin on the music track and turn it down until it feels under the microphone?
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TheOreoMonster
Dec 12, 2019, 12:35:03 PM12/12/19
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Pretty much my suggestion regarding clip gain. Trim plug in does the same just its done as a plug in insert as well. Chris regarding your noise on the headphones when you turn it up, unless that noise is the headphone amp and not coming from the mic pre, you will have the same issue if you boost the level inside of protools instead of turning down clip gain. The other question here is are you using direct monitoring on the interface or input monitoring through pro tools? I’d suggest turning direct monitoring off and using input monitoring myself.
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CHUCK REICHEL
Dec 12, 2019, 12:59:17 PM12/12/19
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Hi Steve,
Your Clip gain method will avoid any "latency" introduced by the gain plug in.
Its quick and your done.!! :)
HTH
Chuck
"God does not play dice with the universe"
"Albert Einstein’
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Slau Halatyn
Dec 12, 2019, 3:03:08 PM12/12/19
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Forget what Sweetwater told you. Lower your music track enough so you can get a decent level on the vocal for recording. Maximize your output once you're done with the vocal. Blend the two carefully and you're done. This is not for commercial release so don't sweat it.
On Dec 12, 2019, at 12:14 PM, Christopher Gilland <clgil...@gmail.com> wrote:
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptaccess/d5579571-24f6-83f4-b45e-95b3098f0efa%40gmail.com.
Christopher Gilland
Dec 12, 2019, 8:40:23 PM12/12/19
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Oops? I think I accidentally sent this to chuck privately instead of the list. Ooops? Anyway, I'm using input monitoring through PT, not direct monitor. As for the headphones, it's definitely definitely the headphone amp, not the mike pre. That I can guarantee.
Chris.
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Ronald J Glaser
Dec 13, 2019, 10:52:45 AM12/13/19
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I have the same Interface as chris; and I do not know about Chris's particular set of cans, but my set of cans do not exibit a his at least that is what I am hearing. but my cans come from Yamaha. Not sure if that matters, or is there something enharent about headphone amps that I am missing?
Ron.
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Michael Holmes
Dec 13, 2019, 1:09:28 PM12/13/19
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I’ve found that investing in a small mixer with subgroups and separate outputs works for direct monitor issues.
In a small setup, something like a Mackie 802VLZ would work. You can record through one bus, monitor PT on another, and bring VO and system sounds in through the Mac headphone outs with a 3.5mm TRS to RCA cable. That way you have physical control and extra headroom. There are cheaper mixers that can do this. Just seek out mixers with buses or groups. Different brands have different terms, but they’re pretty similar.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 13, 2019, at 10:52, Ronald J Glaser <ronaldj...@gmail.com> wrote:
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TheOreoMonster
Dec 13, 2019, 1:15:50 PM12/13/19
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Then its probably his headphones. He should try cranking the volume up with a few different pairs of headphones and that will reveal whether its the headphones creating the noise or the headphone amp if he’s eliminatedthe mic pre from the equation
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TheOreoMonster
Dec 13, 2019, 1:17:39 PM12/13/19
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I won’t disagree with this and I have used a miller set up at times over the years but also it can lead to more complications in the case of the person in question here especially considering they are already so confused over something that can be resolved by simply turning down the instrumental and turning up the headphones to compensate.
Great suggestion though.
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Christopher Gilland
Dec 13, 2019, 5:15:03 PM12/13/19
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The brand of headphones being used does not matter in the least.
I have the same Interface as chris; and I do not know about Chris's particular set of cans, but my set of cans do not exibit a his at least that is what I am hearing. but my cans come from Yamaha. Not sure if that matters, or is there something enharent about headphone amps that I am missing?
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Christopher Gilland
Dec 13, 2019, 5:17:09 PM12/13/19
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it is not the headphones. I've tried about five different pairs. i'll different makes and models.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 13, 2019, at 13:15, TheOreoMonster <monkeyp...@gmail.com> wrote:
Then its probably his headphones. He should try cranking the volume up with a few different pairs of headphones and that will reveal whether its the headphones creating the noise or the headphone amp if he’s eliminatedthe mic pre from the equation
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TheOreoMonster
Dec 13, 2019, 8:11:55 PM12/13/19
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If its not the headphones then its your interface. Time to see about a warranty replacement or something.
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