Fw: Rom 13, civil government and the Christian

[HOYT D. F. SPARKS]

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From: Lyal Lund <buzzs...@outlook.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2021 02:13
Subject: Rom 13, civil government and the Christian

 

Ok folks, my apology, the other day I sent out an email to everyone that was supposed to have this link with it, but apparently it did not make it on the email. Now retrying. Please note that in addition to this vid, I believe the God ordained authority in this nation is NOT the government, but rather the Constitution, to which both government and the people are to be submitted too. It is the right and duty of each side, that when the other side is found to be out of compliance, it is to be forced, if need be, back into compliance (the need for the Second Amendment).

The Christian and Patriot, who then enters the struggle against a tyrannical, unconstitutional government, is NOT in violation of Rom 13 at all, but rather in obedience to it.

Further, as the vid points out, submission in scripture, wherever taught, is NOT a moral absolute, for unlimited submission belongs to God alone and never to sinful man. rom 13, as all such submission passages show, is a general principal only.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzrdKYFR-1E 

[HOYT D. F. SPARKS]

All you have to do in order to post to the forum, is  to type in the "TO" line the email address of the forum, and then click on "Send" when you are ready to send.  See how I have done this by putting  the forum address in the "CC" line.

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From: Lyal Lund <buzzs...@outlook.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2021 16:11
To: HOYT D. F. SPARKS <hoyts...@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Rom 13, civil government and the Christian

 

Actually I dont even know how to post on the forum: But feel free to do so if you wish. I will add one more comment to the end of it tho, if you do post it.

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From: HOYT D. F. SPARKS <hoyts...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2021 10:14 AM
To: Lyal Lund <buzzs...@outlook.com>
Subject: Re: Rom 13, civil government and the Christian

 

Why don't you post to the forum:  predestina...@googlegroups.com

Further, as the vid points out, submission in scripture, wherever taught, is NOT a moral absolute, for unlimited submission belongs to God alone and never to sinful man. rom 13, as all such submission passages show, is a general principal only. ​For instance, a congregation is to submit to the leadership of the church. However, if that leadership is found to be teaching doctrine contrary to God's Word, it is to remove that leadership and appoint other leadership more faithful to Scripture.  In terms of the government and the Christian, to be sure, we are to be model citizens, we are to pay our taxes, obey the laws. However when government becomes oppressive and tyrannical, our very Constitution states We The People, have the right to alter or abolish such government and appoint a new government that respects our rights. The Founders understood very well something called 'Natural Law', that our rights come to us from God and are inherent in creation. Government does NOT grant such rights, nor can it take them away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzrdKYFR-1E 

[Lyal Lund]

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From: Lyal Lund <buzzs...@outlook.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2021 1:11 PM

To: HOYT D. F. SPARKS <hoyts...@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Rom 13, civil government and the Christian

[Tom Adams]

Hello,

Just some food for thought.

The speaker of this video is Pastor Matt Trewhella.  He is the pastor of a "church" called Mercy Seat Christian Church based in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.  I was not familiar with him nor this video before I received the email below.  I noticed that the name of the YouTube channel was "Defy Tyrants" and simply did a search in DuckDuckGo for that name and found out that there is also a web-site with that name.  On the site it has his name along with the name of the church he pastors.  I then did a search for the "church" to see what I could find.  Attached is their "Catechism" which I downloaded from his "church" site.

Please take time to download and peruse the Catechism before you take a lot of stock in what he has to say in the video.  Yes, the Lord spoke through an ass in the Old Testament, therefore I fully believe He can speak truth through any man if He so desires.  Yet, I personally feel it is good to know a little about the speaker and what their basis of truth is.

Here is his web-site Defy Tyrants: https://defytyrants.com/

Here is his "church" web-site: http://mercyseat.net/mscc/

In hope,
Tom Adams

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[Tom Adams]

Hello,

Hoyt, I CC’d you in this email. Only because last night I replied to the original email but just to the group email address. I didn’t receive a copy of it in my email but on the other hand I also didn’t receive an “undeliverable” email either. So I just assumed that the sender doesn’t get an email by default. But because of that I am not 100% sure that it went through. Can you please let me know if you received it through the group email address.  Thank you!

With reference to the video. One of the examples the speaker used was Daniel. The king signed a “law” and put it into effect and the speaker then stressed about the actions that Daniel took and how important he felt it was. But, he fails to mention a very important aspect about Daniel. At the very end of the verse it clearly states “...as he did aforetime.” (Dan. 6:10b) So, if the speaker of this video is correct and that Daniel was making a show of his defiance by his posturing and position, then can we not also conclude that before the “law” had gone into effect that Daniel was also doing those things as a show, not of defiance but of his piety? I only say that because of how that verse ended with “...as he did aforetime” or put more simply “...as he did before” (What he did before he was doing now!).  We know that is not the case, by any means, for Daniel was a “faithful” man with no “fault found in him” (6:4) and he was definitely not a “see me, see me” man. So, I believe that this speaker is reading into this section of verses and attempting to make them say something that they are not, which he in the beginning of the video very pointedly stated that it is wrong to do.

Was Daniel defying the “law” of the king? Yes. Was he making a show of it? Was he proclaiming from the rooftops that he didn’t agree with the new “law” and would defy it? Was he publishing a writing on how this new “law” went against his rights and how he was going to fight it? No! He was doing exactly what he had done before the “law” took effect. There was no change of behavior with Daniel. As far as he was concerned it was just another day. Why do you think those men went to the king to get him to make this new “law”? They knew his character and his schedule, thus they knew they could catch him.

I realize that the main focus of the video was to show that the Scriptures do not promote a full submission to the authorities. I agree with that premise. IF a law is enacted that says there will be no more praying, would that truly stop a believer from praying? Absolutely not! It didn’t stop Daniel. IF a law is enacted that says there will be no more church meetings whatsoever, would that truly stop 2-3 believers from gathering together even in secret? Absolutely not! History has proven this over and over.

But, is it the “duty” of the believer to defy these “laws”? The speaker of this video has a ministry that is devoted to the duty to defy (Defy Tyrants). What he doesn’t seem to realize is that when there is a “duty” then it is works and not grace! If a true believer defies any law, it is because of the love one has for their Redeemer and has absolutely nothing to do with “duty”. Thus I strongly disagree with his last slide on the video which says: “When the State commands that which God forbids or forbid that which God commands – we have the duty to obey God rather than man.” Again, if it is a “duty” then it is works! Did Daniel defy out of “duty” or out of “love and reverence to God”?

I also wanted to bring up something that hopefully most have thought about already. Consequences! If you are given to defy the government then be prepared to face the consequences. Looking at Daniel, he knew the “law” was put into effect thus he also knew the consequences of defying that law. It made absolutely no difference to him. There is no record of him denying it, nor of him begging for his life nor saying he was sorry! He was made willing to pay the price if need be. This is completely contrary to the “antifa” groups that are making so much noise these days. They want to defy anything and everything they can but then when confronted with any type of consequence they cry “foul” and attempt to play the victim.

In hope,

Tom