UWM TSS/8

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Bill Saltzstein

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Jul 19, 2022, 8:22:46 PM7/19/22
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A long shot, but I’m wondering if anyone has built and run UWM TSS/8 (found on https://github.com/lisper/cpus-pdp8)?  And documentation on bitsavers (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/univOfWiscMilwaukee/UWM_TSS8_UsersGuide_Jul74.pdf).

Back in the mid 70’s I was a high school student in the Milwaukee area and we had an ASR-33 terminal and modem in the back of the math classroom.  The teacher told me that the University had lent them the terminal as part of a trial program, and he knew nothing about it, but the manual was next to the teletype... This was my introduction to computers and I was hooked.  I’d ride my bicycle over and was made an honorary ‘computer operator’ for after-school shifts, hanging dectapes and handing out printouts.  And would be allowed to use it during special downtimes to run OS/8.  I could even learned to read ASCII directly from the paper tape.

I’d love to get that version up and running for old time’s sake.  It incorporated a lot of OS/8 commands into the time-sharing environment, greatly expanding on the simple system shipped from DEC.  I believe it was part of a grad student project.

A photo of me in front of the computer from circa 1976.  Yeah, the hair, right?

- Bill



Bill Saltzstein



AndyB

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Jul 20, 2022, 10:21:05 AM7/20/22
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that haircut is back in fashion now - awesome photo!

Ken Conatser

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Jul 20, 2022, 10:24:32 AM7/20/22
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I like the Dr. Who scarf! :-)

Charley Jones

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Jul 20, 2022, 10:48:50 AM7/20/22
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Groovey, man!
Looks like we both cut our teeth on OS8 and Tom Baker!
image0.jpeg

Sent from my iPhone 12pm!
Charley Jones, PMP

On Jul 20, 2022, at 7:24 AM, Ken Conatser <kenco...@gmail.com> wrote:


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Heinz-Bernd Eggenstein

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Jul 20, 2022, 7:33:44 PM7/20/22
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Ah..70s...(currently watching reruns of The Streets of San Francisco and The Rockford Files .... :-)

Anyway, back to PDP-8....is that UWM version of TSS/8 more modern or more complete than the version that comes pre-installed as an image with the PiDP-8 software? Because if that's the case, it might be worthwhile to try to incorporate it into the "official" PiDP-8 distribution, provided the licence for any additional material is ok etc.

Cheers
HB

timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 20, 2022, 8:00:59 PM7/20/22
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I believe the UWM version is 8.25.  I am guessing the version that comes pre-bundled is 8.24?  I fiddled with this many years ago using the typed in code
that was available.  My thought was to verify it matched the RS08 disk version that was being used.  I found some typo's and fixed those.  Then I compared
images till I got them to match. Vince Slyngstad and Brad Parker went ever further and got images created that could be used directly and bootable.  
Don't know if anyone has ever built 8.25.  Hopefully someone knows and replies.  At one point years back (2000 or so) I was hoping to get TSS/8 to
boot on a real 8i.  Never quite got there, but someone has gotten it to boot on an 8e using RK05s (RS08s are rare these days and are easily damaged 
when powered up or down).  To boot and run using RK05s requires some patching to TSS/8.  There is a BLOG on this somewhere about this and how
to do it.  I don't have the URL handy.

Mike Katz

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Jul 21, 2022, 9:31:49 AM7/21/22
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I keep hoping to be able to run TSS.8 (Edusystem 50) on my 8/E when it's all up and running.  Maybe we can work on an RS08 or DF32 emulator (which ever is easier) for the swap drive.  Swapping to an RK05 might be kinda slow (that article says it gets slow with more then a few users).

If it is used solely as the swap drive and does not need permanent storage, the entire thing might be able to run out of RAM.  My thoughts would be an RP2040 (Raspberry Pi Pico) CPU, which has lots of RAM and is dual core.   Maybe some kind of brown out interrupt on the micro could copy the contents of the RAM to an SD card or SDI flash.

Tim Radde

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Jul 21, 2022, 12:36:15 PM7/21/22
to Mike Katz, PiDP-8
I wish I had had a copy of this RK05 version when I had my 8e.  It had enough memory and 2 RK05s.  But that was back before 2010.
I may have heard of the patches for making an RK05 be used for swapping, but did not have access to them.  I probably considered
making them myself but never gave it enough thought.  I really wanted to see my 8i run it.  Always loved watching the lights
when TSS/8 was running the null job and the AC would count.  Never cared as much for the 8e lights as they were only dial
selectable so you only saw one register.  I don't know what it would take to make an RS08 emulator or DF32.  One would think
it would not be too difficult. Yes, I would expect the RK05 swapping would be slow, but at least it would run.  I have a Pico but
haven't done much with it.

Steve Tockey

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Jul 21, 2022, 3:41:00 PM7/21/22
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Tim wrote:

"I don't know what it would take to make an RS08 emulator or DF32."

Are you referring to on the PiDP-8/i? If so, it already exists. The standard version of TSS/8 on the PiDP-8/i uses emulated DF32. RS08/DF32 emulation has been in SIMH for years.

Anyway, I'll be in a position next week or so to have more time to play with my PiDP-8/i, I can probably try to get UWM TSS/8 running here. If I'm successful, I'll certainly share it with everyone who wants it. it's just a matter of having the time freed up to play with it.


-- steve



timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 21, 2022, 6:40:46 PM7/21/22
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No, for the pdp-8e as the original posted discussed.  He wants to run TSS/8 but use a DF32 or RS08 as the swap disk so the RK05 swap code doesn't have to be
used as it's quite slow.  RK05s can't read single bytes as the DF32 / RS08 could.  Also it can't read/write full 4k images directly so has to do it in chunks.  This would
be my issue to if I were trying to run it on an 8e.

timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 21, 2022, 6:43:04 PM7/21/22
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Oh, I forgot to add I was talking read 8i hardware, not the PiDP-8.  I had a real pdp-8i back between 2000 and 2010.  It's easy to run Simh and boot TSS/8.  It's just not
the same to me.  The 8i was the first computer I used and learned on in junior high and high school.

On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 2:41:00 PM UTC-5 Steve Tockey wrote:

Bill Saltzstein

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Jul 21, 2022, 7:50:00 PM7/21/22
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Really appreciate all the comments here folks; especially the hirsute ones.  I was a fashion icon way ahead (or behind?) my time and didn't know it.  I just hated getting my hair cut until I couldn't fit through doorways.

Back to the original topic; I believe this was indeed a much more complete version.  I recall many of the OS/8 features in the TSS/8 environment.  In fact, when I got my PIDP-8 running, I was disappointed since that version of TSS/8 seemed 'neutered' to me.

So I see hints that it might have been done; anyone have the disk image?  With SIMH I can clearly set up any machine and hardware needed to support it.  The UWM computer was a fully-loaded PDP-8e from what I recall (and is kind of visible in the photo).

Just trying to relive my early days like everyone else in this group!

Thanks again,
Bill

timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 21, 2022, 8:14:43 PM7/21/22
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Now that's a word I have to admit I had never heard.  Had to look up what it meant.  I remember seeing that picture long ago and now can
pin a name to it.  I also worked as an operator on a pdp-8i system running TSS/8.  Mount dectapes when asked and doing nightly backups.
This was in 1975, but I started using that machine in about 1970.  One of the larger TSS/8 setups that I know of.  Full 32k, 3 RS08s, a PT08
(or whatever was used for modems) somewhere, but I never saw it, and 3 TU55s.  They eventually interfaced it to a card reader/punch.  They were even
dabbling in a virtual 8k for one user version but I never got to try that.  The last version of TSS/8 that I used was 8.24.  We were asked to make
some local patches that prevented the "force" command from anywhere but K00, and "TA" (talk) could only go to K00 if you were at a non
K00.  The version on the PiDP-8 is probably the same one that Simh seems to have as stock.  I would think you could compile the code
using one of the older PAL assemblers that are available and load it as if you were starting a brand new machine.  The code on Github at
https://github.com/lisper/cpus-pdp8 appears to have the compiled ts8, ts8II, si, fip, and init.  Shouldn't you be able to load those via virtual
paper tape to create your disk image?

Bill Saltzstein

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Jul 21, 2022, 8:23:35 PM7/21/22
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Thanks!  Probably so, but I’ve never built a system and was hoping that someone more skilled than I had done so.  Could be that is something for me to cut my teeth on, but I’m still hoping to be lazy.

Thanks again!

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timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 21, 2022, 8:57:23 PM7/21/22
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I may give it a try later tonight.  I DL'd the Github file.  I have never tried to build an image, but have read about it and it sounds fairly easy.
I always just used the existing RS08 image that pretty much matched what I used.  Then after I had a real 8i I dabbled with it a bit.
Never could get my TU56 to read a tape quite right.  One bit in the external bus was faulty.  I should have realized that when the RK03
(I forget which, but not an RK05, 1/2 the data amount, but similar sized disk) would not fully run the diag test.  It would fail as soon
as it tried to write and then read back.  I never connected that failing with the tape failing and likely being the same underlying problem.
I have a video of me running that on Youtube if you want to see it.

timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 21, 2022, 9:54:27 PM7/21/22
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I don't happen to see the BUILD program that allows building from paper tape.  I am not sure how others created the disk image without that.
I was thinking it was part of INIT, but does not appear to be so.

timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 22, 2022, 1:11:02 AM7/22/22
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I am thinking I see how he built the image.  He wrote some code to merge the new TSS8 fields into an existing image.  I can get INIT to start but
it hangs up after entering the date and time.  So I am not quite there yet.

Bill Saltzstein

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Jul 22, 2022, 1:00:15 PM7/22/22
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Appreciate the efforts!  Keep us posted on your progress.

Tim Radde

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Jul 22, 2022, 1:35:50 PM7/22/22
to Bill Saltzstein, PiDP-8
It's weird.  I can take a known RF image from the web and Simh will run it just fine.  I tried taking this image as a base image (even though
it's 8.24 and not 8.25).  This should work I would have thought to at least come up.  Replace all 5 components of TSS8 (SI, FIP, INIT, TS8,
and TS8II) should full boot, but it does not.  Init runs and asks what I wish to do.  Asks for date and time and then just stops.  I would not
expect the rest of the image to matter.  Accounts should still be the same as would be the system programs.  I must be wrong there and
something changed  between 8.24 and 8.25 in a major way?  I never used 8.25 and as far as I know I have never seen any documentation
for it, nor for 8.24.  Most seems to be from earlier versions of TSS/8.  I don't have the BUILD to create this from scratch or have the system
programs as one would have on dectape.  So what this person did was take a base RF image and just overlay the 5 TSS8 pieces over
what is already there.  I could understand if I got an error after the system started, but since it hangs I am not sure where it is failing.

Tim Radde

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Jul 22, 2022, 1:58:57 PM7/22/22
to Bill Saltzstein, PiDP-8
It appears I will have to do some file compares between 8.24 code and 8.25 to see what actually changed.  This may be
why no 8.25 is available to boot.  I had read that Vince had managed to extract all the system files from 0,2 so I will
ask him about that.  If so I could install the base code and do a refresh and reload those.  That should fix up any
issues with something changing in the directory structure and the like.

Mike Katz

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Jul 22, 2022, 2:13:12 PM7/22/22
to Steve Tockey, PiDP-8
Steve,

Actually, I was referring to hardware that I could use in my 8/E.

Eventually when I get my TU56 and RK05 working I really want to bring up TSS/8 and make it available on the web with a webcam to show the lights and dectape movement.

    Mike
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William Cattey

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Jul 22, 2022, 2:25:20 PM7/22/22
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Note: I built the tools that enable OS/8 to build from sources where the sources are kept in POSIX land under source control,
and the build is run in simh under script control.  If we have TSS8 sources, such a setup could be created.

William Cattey

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Jul 22, 2022, 3:12:05 PM7/22/22
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One issue concerns me... With regards to OS/8, we actually have a license in-hand that says we can redistribute everything for non-commercial use. See: https://tangentsoft.com/pidp8i/doc/trunk/media/os8/LICENSE.md
Does such a thing exist for TSS/8?  

Although moribund software is often thought of as having expired rights, in practice that's not the case!

Bill Saltzstein

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Jul 22, 2022, 3:41:50 PM7/22/22
to William Cattey, PiDP-8
I’d have to believe that there aren’t any issues here.  Others who have investigated it believe we’re all fine, but here are a couple of references that I’ve found to the TSS/8 licensing situation:

And this from Tangent; see the end of this page:

Likely others may have more info?
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Bill Saltzstein

On Jul 22, 2022, at 12:12 PM, William Cattey <bill....@gmail.com> wrote:

One issue concerns me... With regards to OS/8, we actually have a license in-hand that says we can redistribute everything for non-commercial use. See: https://tangentsoft.com/pidp8i/doc/trunk/media/os8/LICENSE.md
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timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 22, 2022, 11:24:42 PM7/22/22
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I believe I have found what might be causing this issue.  Or at least it's one issue.  JOBMAX for 8.24 is defined as 20.  JOBMAX for 8.25 is defined as 6.  This causes much less swap space to be allocated so the image I used may not start the MFD at the right spot.  I will need to investigate more.

timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 23, 2022, 1:04:47 AM7/23/22
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I was wrong on this.  I was looking at the wrong param file.  So back to square one.  Something is funky.  8.25 boots.  But R CAT at 0,1 shows nothing and an error.  So I am
guessing something changed in the MFD or UFD specification.  Too bad there is no docs for 8.25 that I have seen.

timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 23, 2022, 11:50:35 PM7/23/22
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I am attempting to write a small piece of code to extract all the SV programs stored on the existing good disk.  I will then figure a way to put them into the
other disk with the changed MFD/UFD format.

folke...@gmail.com

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Jul 24, 2022, 9:28:00 AM7/24/22
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I've extracted the TSS/8 programs from the disk by using PIP inside the running system to write them to papertape - ZIP file with all programs attached. I've successfully used these files to build a TSS/8 system from scratch with a custom configuration - assembling the Melrose kernel and programs, loading INIT from papertape and then using BUILD to initialize the disk. After that, PIP can be used to restore the other programs back from papertape.

If you're interested, that custom system is running in my 8/I WASM implementation on https://pdp8.app - simply load and start 04200, type START, enter a date in 1974 or so and login with LOGIN 2 PASS, then you can run FOCAL, BASIC, etc. in your browser on 5 terminals. Papertape and punch are also functional, so you can save and restore to and from papertape there.

Note that the PUTR version from the disk doesn't run on an 8/I since it uses 8/E instructions, so when BUILD asks for the PUTR tape, I simply inserted the PIP tape instead and used that since my system implements the 8/I circuits.

I also tried running the UWM build, but its INIT program only supports restoring the system from DECtape and I don't have that tape.
progs.zip

timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 24, 2022, 12:24:22 PM7/24/22
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Most helpful. Never even thought to do that.  That will save me some time.  I always thought BUILD was a separate program but it's part of INIT.
I may try to convert the UWM dectape only BUILD to use papertape BUILD from 8.24.  Don't know if this will work or not.   But it gives me something
to do and it's fun as I always enjoyed working with TSS/8 even back in the day when I was using a real TSS/8 8i over a modem and on a TTY.

folke...@gmail.com

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Jul 24, 2022, 12:51:40 PM7/24/22
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I always thought BUILD was a separate program but it's part of INIT.
Chapter 2 (page 14 in the PDF) describes the process to bootstrap TSS/8 from papertape. The SI, FIP, INIT and TS8 tapes can be directly used from assembling the Melrose assembly listings. For PUTR, I inserted the PIP tape as explained above. "START 0" in a later step will then bring up PIP and allows transferring all the remaining programs.

These steps, the kernel assembly listings and the files from the ZIP I posted before allow bootstrapping a complete installation with a custom configuration without depending on disk images etc. I had to learn these steps because the kernel on the disk is for an 8/E and doesn't work with the KW8/I clock of the 8/I. But the Github repository for TSS/8 even includes a Makefile, so it was easy to customize the kernel in melrose.pa and assemble the bootstrap tapes.

timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 24, 2022, 4:38:46 PM7/24/22
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I have not dabble with TSS/8 for years (decades).  I may have known that at one time back in the 70s.  May I ask where you found PUTR or PIP source to build?  I got up
to loading that via build, but don't have a binary tape.  Tried using one of the existing but the FIELD value was not 5 so would not load.  Yep, I have looked at and printed
portions of the Sys Mgr guide.  I had noticed the "START 0" but wasn't sure how it did what it did since I don't have PUTR or PIP.  I now have the SV version of PIP.
But don't know how to convert that to a binary image to load into field 5.  Slowly re-learning about TSS/8. I was happy to see the GitHub stuff had a macro8x assembler
included to build each part.  Maybe I have just missed where you found PIP.

folke...@gmail.com

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Jul 24, 2022, 4:56:31 PM7/24/22
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May I ask where you found PUTR or PIP source to build?

Unfortunately I don't have the sources for PUTR or PIP. The binary tapes in the ZIP file I posted earlier are extracted from the disk image: I started that in SIMH and used PIP to store all the SV files as binary tapes. You can do that using PIP by entering "B" as an option. Same to retrieve it later. So when INIT asks you for PUTR, insert the PIP (or PUTR if you have an 8/E) file from my ZIP archive and attach it to the reader in the same way as you loaded the other tapes.

After the bootstrap process, you should be able to login. There are no programs present, so you can't even .R CAT or .R PIP. But the last step of the bootstrap actually loaded the last tape into core, so doing START 0 starts whatever program you loaded as the last part of the bootstrap process when it asked for PUTR. And if you inserted PIP like I did, it will then start PIP. Enter nothing as INPUT to indicate that you want to load from tape, enter the program name as output (e.g. "PIP"), then enter B as option. If you then insert the PIP tape again, PIP will be saved on disk. Then you can later run PIP with .R PIP. That way, you can transfer all the files from the archive back onto your disk.

timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 24, 2022, 4:57:39 PM7/24/22
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I know only PIP knows how to handle SV tapes.  I wonder if I can use that to switch back to binary?  I'll have to read up on PIP.  Thanks again.

timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 24, 2022, 6:09:46 PM7/24/22
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Weird.  I am pretty sure I tried to use your PIP.SV file and BUILD did not accept it.  Now it does and I was able to build an 8.24+ system up to being able to login.
Now to build the system library.  If I get all this to work I will attempt to figure out how to build the 8.25 version.  I may just try to build a Simh dectape file and
let it go from that.  But I have to find out how the dectape was set up.  But so far your help has been invaluable.  So thank you again.

timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 25, 2022, 12:09:08 AM7/25/22
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The version of PIP I used and read about uses the S option to load or dump SAV format files.  The B is for BASIC files it says.  The doc talked about how to load and save binary files but wasn't very clear.  I did manage to run this for 8.24.  But I have no idea how to get it loaded into core with 8.25.  I tried using the "maker" utility provided to load something into field 5 (first swap field).  But it won't take a SAV file.  I don't know how to convert a SAV back to binary load format.  I did force the smaller COPY.BN from the UWM folder and it went in.  Looked like it kind of loaded but did not start with start.  But did start when I entered just PIP and not R PIP.  I assume it was copy as it asked for input.  But now I am thinking that COPY asks for the option first so it knows what you wish to do?  I'd have to go back and look.  But it did not copy any files into [0,2].  But I am not sure I was in [0,2].  It appears it thought I was in [0,1] as the initial line of something like CAT showed acct and password headers.  I still feel part of my problem is
the difference in MFD from before I do a REFRESH and after.

timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 25, 2022, 4:09:43 PM7/25/22
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I have kludged together a bootable 8.25 system.  But I don't believe I can make it full work.  What I did was take the 8.24 disk image as a start.  I ran the 8.24 INIT and chose BUILD to get the paper tape prompts.  I had to recompile all the TSS8 binaries to have a FIELD designator (SI, FIP, INIT, TS8, TS8II).  After this I was able to load each image
and also loaded PIP at the PUTR prompt.  Then I did a REFRESH to clear the MFD/UFD to only have accounts 1 and 2.  I had to do this to get FIP to have its storage table correct.  If I had left it as is the MFD/UFD in use on the disk would not show properly in FIP's tables. So far so good.  I booted with START and logged into 2.   I did a START 0 and got PIP, so loaded a few SAV tapes.  CAT, SYSTAT, PIP (of course), LOGID, LOGOUT, etc.  I loaded PIP to make sure I could get back to it with R PIP which works.  But because the MFD format changed and likely some things changed where they are at in TS8 or FIP: CAT and SYSTAT do not work properly.  CAT gives and MFD error.  SYSTAT
throws an invalid IOT error. I don't know what the IOT is since I don't know how to look at a SAV file.  PIP works fine so I loaded a few more SAVs. FOCAL works fine.  So without the proper library files associated with [0,2] this will never fully work.

Bill Saltzstein

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Jul 25, 2022, 5:26:53 PM7/25/22
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Wonderful effort, thanks for giving it a go and putting in all the time!

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timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 25, 2022, 5:44:55 PM7/25/22
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It's been fun for me.  Took me back in time to my days of using TSS/8 as well.  We were on 8.22B for a long time.  Just before I left that area they moved up to 8.24.
Never saw 8.25.   I had hoped someone would save that system, but it seemed to go to the scrapper like so many other systems.  I will continue to play with it to
see if I can figure out a way to fix it fully.

timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 25, 2022, 5:56:32 PM7/25/22
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I have a plan to get further.  I can run each program that fails and then stop the emulator and examine the swap area for job 1 (me).  This will show the in core image
and it's exactly the code that is running at the time.  This way I can at least figure out the issue and maybe find a way to patch some of the issues.

Randy James

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Jul 25, 2022, 6:24:40 PM7/25/22
to timr...@gmail.com, PiDP-8
I’m loving this thread series.  

I started on an 11/40 RSTS 4A system in high school, then in college at Rochester Institute of Technology I ran a 8/e EduSystem 50 four 4 years in the printing school with 16K core, 1 platter RF08, DF32, 4 Tu55, 96 character LPXXX. 4 vt52, 1 ASR33, 2 high speed paper readers and 1 high speed punch.

We had the line printer output of the entire source of TSS 8.24.  I wrote a WYSIWUG Word processor for the Vt52’s and a typesetting and statistics package for it. 
 I still have some tapes and listings of some of my work.  Best days of my life until I went to work for DEC for 15 years from 1980-1995.

I have RSTS 7 running on my pi 4 with Oscars magical panel…I plan to get an 8/I setup too - though I loved the look of the 8/e.

Can’t want to rejoin the TSS crowd!

You guys are AMAZING!  THANK YOU!

Randy

On Jul 25, 2022, at 4:56 PM, timr...@gmail.com <timr...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have a plan to get further.  I can run each program that fails and then stop the emulator and examine the swap area for job 1 (me).  This will show the in core image
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timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 25, 2022, 7:00:32 PM7/25/22
to PiDP-8
Can you supply more info on what type of additions were made to add OS/8 type commands?  It appears Vince Slyngstad is also working on this from a somewhat different direction but both working to the same goal to make this fully bootable and working.

On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 7:22:46 PM UTC-5 bills...@gmail.com wrote:
A long shot, but I’m wondering if anyone has built and run UWM TSS/8 (found on https://github.com/lisper/cpus-pdp8)?  And documentation on bitsavers (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/univOfWiscMilwaukee/UWM_TSS8_UsersGuide_Jul74.pdf).

Back in the mid 70’s I was a high school student in the Milwaukee area and we had an ASR-33 terminal and modem in the back of the math classroom.  The teacher told me that the University had lent them the terminal as part of a trial program, and he knew nothing about it, but the manual was next to the teletype... This was my introduction to computers and I was hooked.  I’d ride my bicycle over and was made an honorary ‘computer operator’ for after-school shifts, hanging dectapes and handing out printouts.  And would be allowed to use it during special downtimes to run OS/8.  I could even learned to read ASCII directly from the paper tape.

I’d love to get that version up and running for old time’s sake.  It incorporated a lot of OS/8 commands into the time-sharing environment, greatly expanding on the simple system shipped from DEC.  I believe it was part of a grad student project.

A photo of me in front of the computer from circa 1976.  Yeah, the hair, right?

- Bill



Bill Saltzstein



timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 25, 2022, 7:05:21 PM7/25/22
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I wonder how they hooked up two high speed readers.  Never heard of anyone doing that.  Pretty neat.  Bet they were used alot so the need of 2.  Would love to hear what
else you have available as so much isn't available for most TSS/8 versions.  Those were some great years working with the 8i running it.  I managed to kludge together most of an 8i and the necessary hardware to try to run TSS/8 but never quite got there.  Even found two DF32 drives that I never powered up.  Had thought to make some sort of quasi emulator to emulate the drive but use the actual electronics of the interface.  That system went to Paul Allen's collection which at this time no one is quite sure
of how it will end up as the museum is closed.

Bill Saltzstein

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Jul 25, 2022, 7:07:44 PM7/25/22
to timr...@gmail.com, PiDP-8
I honestly don’t recall other than it looked a lot more like OS/8, and had more user commands that had been system ones.

I referenced the operation manual below, but can’t tell you if that was before or after Bart (that was the person who made most of the mods) did his work.  I’d guess this is an older manual since I recall him still working on it in about 1975/6 and this is dated 1973.

Sorry I can’t be of more help…. I could try to find Bart on LinkedIn and see if he might have anything.  I think I saw his name in one of the source files.

Thanks,
Bill

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Randy James

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Jul 25, 2022, 8:55:29 PM7/25/22
to timr...@gmail.com, PiDP-8
There was a special typesetting system called Typeset-8 built by DEC, and supported the use of the DF32 and the multiple paper tape readers and punches.   I recall booting the DF32 on occasion (was super small - 1 platter) and if I recall correctly (40 years later) it was OS/8 based.

I'll scan some of my IBM 039 punch cards where I have the bootstrap/RIM loaders coded.  I also have a PDP-8/i instruction card, a PDP-8 pocket reference manual, and a PDP-8 COS-300/310 system reference card.  One of my first jobs at DEC was writing and installing business applications for newspapers in DIBOL on COS-310.

I had (have?) a EduSystem 50 users manual - but it seems to be lost in my files at the moment. 

Here are pictures of my 8/e based lab - circa 1977.

Randy



PICT0033.JPG
PICT0020.JPG

timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 25, 2022, 11:56:53 PM7/25/22
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Well, if we're posting pics. Here was my pdp-8i in my living room in 2007 or so.
my-8i.JPG

timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 27, 2022, 6:24:27 PM7/27/22
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I wonder if one could start with the Simh code that emulates the RS08.  Make that run on a Pico with whatever needs to wrap the code to make it work.   I don't know 
enough about the Pico.  I got one awhile back and didn't do much with it besides make the LED blink just to prove it worked.  Any thoughts?  I guess it might have to emulate both the RF08 controller and RS08 disk.

On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 5:43:04 PM UTC-5 timr...@gmail.com wrote:
Oh, I forgot to add I was talking read 8i hardware, not the PiDP-8.  I had a real pdp-8i back between 2000 and 2010.  It's easy to run Simh and boot TSS/8.  It's just not
the same to me.  The 8i was the first computer I used and learned on in junior high and high school.

Mike Katz

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Jul 27, 2022, 6:49:53 PM7/27/22
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Someone on here or the cctalk list already has a pdp-8 simulator running on the pico.  I don't think it's based on simh but truly I don't know.
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Tim Radde

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Jul 27, 2022, 7:27:52 PM7/27/22
to Mike Katz, PiDP-8
Maybe you misunderstand?  Not trying to simulate a pdp-8 on the Pico.  Just the disk (RF08/RS08) for someone to use on a real pdp-8e so they
can run TSS/8 running off an RS08 instead of the RK05.

AndyB

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Jul 28, 2022, 10:08:26 AM7/28/22
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definitely enhances any living room!

Mike Katz

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Jul 28, 2022, 10:29:52 AM7/28/22
to AndyB, PiDP-8
Years and one wife ago, I had 2 racks with an 8/E, RK05 & TU56 in each in my dining room.

I eventually had to get rid of them because of the ex-wife.  I should have gotten rid of her soon and kept the PDPs.

timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 28, 2022, 4:27:07 PM7/28/22
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Yeah, I was lucky to be divorced by the time I started gathering my pdp-8 stuff.  I am sure that would not have gone over well having the living room with a 
4 rack 8i, a pdp-11 Applicon-11, a VAX type rack, and a single rack 8e in the dining room with the RP06 drive in there too.

But on to more important stuff.  I have made some progress on 8.25.  I have figured out the SAV format tapes are fine.  It's my forgetfulness of how the
newer systems were adding protection.  Not just anyone could run SYSTAT or some other commands in 8.24.  But in 8.25 they seem to have changed
this even more.  The IOT that is failing is the PEEK IOT (6423).  8.24 has that defined directly in SI.pal.  The format of the valid commands is different in
8.25, and I have not yet figured it out.  There is a priv bit that appears to not be set even though I am logged in as [0,2].  It won't allow me to login as [0,1]
for some reason and I have no user [0,3] to try and can't add users.  I would have expected user [0,2] to be able to run any command.  Does anyone
remember what needs to be done to run a priv program?  Like I said 8.24 allows me to run it as user [0,2].  I will create a fake user and verify that
they can't run it.

timr...@gmail.com

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Jul 30, 2022, 11:43:50 PM7/30/22
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I am admitting defeat on this 8.25 thing.  I have tried many things.  First attempt was just to insert the "paper tape loading" code into the 8.25 INIT code.  This almost
worked or so I thought.  It would load tapes after a few typos were fixed.  8.24 had TS8 and TS8II as one big component, but that it didn't seem to like the one
I built for 8.25.  So I split those back out.  That was good.  Had PIP working to load SAV files.  Had to removed the "+P" bits for SYSTAT and a few others to
make them run.  There must have been something else that would make those work properly, but I can't say.  But SYSTAT would not show my user info.  And
CAT would give the header line and then give me a SYSTEM ERROR.  I had to believe there was something wrong with the MFD/UFD, although they looked Ok.
And the utility code to dump the MFD/UFD dumped it out Ok too.  I assumed my problem was using the modified 8.25 INIT to boot but loading the BIN
of the regular 8.25 INIT to disk.  INIT reloads itself for certain things.  So I thought maybe this was causing the problems I saw.  So I decided to just use
an updated 8.24 INIT (and pulled in the 8.25 MFD/UFD creation code as it's different).  Finally got that to compile after some hiccups.  Got it to BUILD and
REFRESH.  But on START it would ask for the date and time and then hang.  This seems to be due to many locations are not defined properly from my 8.24
INIT and the 8.25 TS8, TS8II, FIP, and SI.  Just too many things to fix, and not enough space in the 8.24 INIT to put them without ripping out other code.
This has bitten me a few times thinking some code is not really used, when it is.  I wish I could say differently, but I don't know enough about 8.25 and
its differences from 8.25.  I do see some mentions of OS/8 in the code, but it's also in 8.24 but not as much.  There might still be missing pieces of these
new OS/8 commands.

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