Adding terminals to RSTS

[Bob Alexander]

Sorry to be such high maintenance...

I have RSTS running with the UART as KB0:. I've plugged in a USB to serial adapter, and if I give the Linux command echo "hello" >/dev/ttyUSB0 the text is sent out the USB adapter.

In RSTS's boot.ini I have:

; enable 4 USB serial ports
set vh lines=16
set vh dhu
set vh nomodem
set vh enable
;attach vh line=0,connect=/dev/ttyUSB3
;attach vh line2,connect=/dev/ttyUSB1
attach vh line=1,connect=/dev/ttyUSB0
;attach vh line=3,connect=/dev/ttyUSB2

 

But with RSTS up and running, the USB serial port is unresponsive: nothing I type is echoed. Even though the port works from Linux, RSTS doesn't seem to be using it.

What have I missed?

Thank you.

 

[Bob Alexander]

More info: here are the devices RSTS knows about:

Option: HARDWARE LIST

  Name  Address Vector  Comments
  TT:    177560   060
  RK:    177400   220   RK05F units: none
  RL:    174400   160   Units: 0(RL01) 1(RL01) 2(RL01) 3(RL01)
  RM:    177440   210   Units: 0(RK06) 1(RK06) 2(RK06) 3(RK06) 4(RK06)
                               5(RK06) 6(RK06) 7(RK06)
  RR:    176700   254   BAE=+050, Units: 0(RM03) 1(RM03) 2(RM03)
                               3(RM03) 4(RM03) 5(RM03) 6(RM03) 7(RM03)
  TM:    172520   224
  PR0:   177550   070
  PP0:   177554   074
  LP0:   177514   200
  RX0:   177170   264
  DZ0:   160100   300
  DZ1:   160110   310
  DZ2:   160120   320
  DZ3:   160130   330

  KW11L  177546   100
  SR     177570
  DR     177570

  Hertz = 60.

  Other: FPU, SL, 22-Bit Addressing, Cache w/address, System ID = 4660

[Gerry Duprey]

Howdy,

Looks like your system is gen'd for DZ 11s, but the simh setup is attempting to setup and attach
ports to a DH11. Change the 'vh' to 'dz' in your simh setup (DZs generally support up to 8 lines,
so might want to change that up)

Gerry

> give the Linux commandecho "hello" >/dev/ttyUSB0 the text is sent out the USB adapter.

>
> In RSTS's boot.ini I have:
> ; enable 4 USB serial ports
> set vh lines=16
> set vh dhu
> set vh nomodem
> set vh enable
> ;attach vh line=0,connect=/dev/ttyUSB3
> ;attach vh line2,connect=/dev/ttyUSB1
> attach vh line=1,connect=/dev/ttyUSB0
> ;attach vh line=3,connect=/dev/ttyUSB2
> But with RSTS up and running, the USB serial port is unresponsive: nothing I type is echoed.
> Even though the port works from Linux, RSTS doesn't seem to be using it.
>
> What have I missed?
>
> Thank you.
>

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[Bob Alexander]

OK, I changed the vh's to dz's and the 'set lines=16' to 8. 

The 'set dz dhu' and 'set dz nomodem' gave 'Non-existent parameter' errors, but I presume no harm is done. 

DZ1:, DZ2:, and DZ3: disappeared from the hardware list, but DZ0: is still there. I don't understand that.

But the serial port is still unresponsive.

[Gerry Duprey]

I wouldn't be surprised if the VH was showing as a DZ. But always best to match reality ;-)

My RSTS is rusty, but by default, terminals are not enabled for login. If I recall, it's going to
be something like SET TERM/INTERACTIVE KBG0: (I believe KBGx for for accessing DZ11 terminals - you
can use SHOW TERM (and HELP SHOW TERM) to list terminals and the last 8 are likely to be your DZ11).

You'll also want to try using a fixed baudrate like

SET TERM/NOAUTO/SPEED=9600/TYPE=VT100/RECALL/INTERACTIVE/PERMANENT KBG0:

Should enable a 9600 baud login (interactive) terminal with command recall and make that permanent.

Maybe - HELP SET TERM is likely your friend! ;-)

Gerry

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[Clem Cole]

From simh, before you boot RSTS type:

show devices  and then show serial

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[Anton Lavrentiev]

I tried to get RSTS that comes in the systems archive for PiDP-11, to have terminals working, and I couldn't....  Maybe it needs a round of sysgen, but as it is, the terminal multiplexer remained dead

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[Johnny Billquist]

Just a small nitpick: 'vh' is not DH11. It's a DHV11, which is a
different thing. The DHV11 isn't even close to compatible with a DH11,
but is pretty much compatible with the DHU11.

simh do not have emulation for the DH11.

And with all that said, I also agree that it certainly looks like the
RSTS/E system only knows about DZ controllers, while the simh instance
was setup to use a DHV11, which obviously don't match.

But I've seen more comments coming, so I guess the problem isn't solved
yet...

Johnny

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[Bob Alexander]

My RSTS is rusty, but by default, terminals are not enabled for login.

Well that could certainly be a problem!

 

If I recall, it's going to
be something like SET TERM/INTERACTIVE KBG0: 

In RSTS 7, at least, INTERACTIVE is not an option in TTYSET.

 

[Gerry Duprey]

Oh - thought you were on 10 for some reason. Sorry.

Under 7.x - well, that is going back and I'm not going to be much help.

Bu the concept that you had to login-enable a terminal has been around since before 7.x, I believe
(and certainly for 7.x). If you have access to TTYSET help, try stuff like login (interactive was
the "typically wordy" way DCL had for things that were a lot shorter/mysterious before that).

Or make your life a LOT easier and "compatible" with what you expect from a semi-modern system and
switch to 10.1 ;-)

Best of luck!

Gerry

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[Tony Nicholson]

Replace the vh device with a dz (DZ11 type device)

Something like

set dz enable

set dz 8b

set dz lines=8

attach dz line=0,nomodem,connect=/dev/ttyUSB0

etc.

Use the show dz modifier command to see a list of valid set options, and

help dz attach for the attach options.

(There were some changes to the DZ11 emulation around February 2020 to the GitHub SIMH version of pdp11 to do with setting baud rates and fixing inconsistencies with multiplexing and attaching dz devices that may not be in the version being used for the PiDP11 - my currently running PiDP11 version with REALCONS support says it's an Aug 14  2019 build).  It might be time to merge the latest GitHub SIMH pdp11 updates again...

Tony

[Bob Alexander]

simh appears to have configured dz correctly:

Simulation stopped, PC: 042536 (SOB R1,42534)
sim> show dz
DZ      address=17760100-17760107*, vector=300-304*, BR5, lines=8
        attached to Line=1,Connect=/dev/ttyUSB0, 8b, 1 current connection

[Bob Alexander]

What is the PK: device?

I booted up and in response to the Option? prompt I typed SET, then LIST, then ALL. It printed a bunch of devices but I think the relevant ones are:
  KB0   TT:
  KB1   PK0:
  KB2   PK1:
  KB3   PK2:
  KB4   PK3:

Does this mean the keyboards are not associated with the DZ11? simh's PDP-11 Simulator Usage manual doesn't mention a PK device.

The SET command allows me to enable or disable a device (and the PK devices are already enabled) but does not appear to let me re-assign a KB to a DZ. Also, the list of devices does not include a DZ abbreviation.

[Edward Tottenham]

I'm not sure how useful this is but:

PSEUDO KEYBOARD OPERATIONS

A pseudo keyboard is a non-physical device that has the characteristics of a terminal but has no physical device associated with it. like a terminal, a pseudo keyboard has both input and output buffers to which user programs send input and from which they extract output. By using a pseudo keyboard, one job can control other jobs on the system. Pseudo keyboards are particularly useful for BATCH operations, so that a terminal need not be tied up unnecessarily.

At system generation time, the system manager sets the number of pseudo keyboards on the system. The system denotes a pseudo keyboard by a device designator of PK and associates each pseudo keyboard with a keyboard unit number (but not with a physical terminal device.) For example, the system may associate PK5: with KB8:, although no physical keyboard number 8 exists. The output buffer of the pseudo keyboard is the input buffer for the  associated keyboard unit and vice versa.

Use of a pseudo keyboard involves a controlling job and a controlled job. The controlling job initiates operations by performing output to the pseudo keyboard unit. It may run LOGIN and use both RSTS/E and program commands to control the job. The controlling job uses the pseudo keyboard to perform input to and extract output from the controlled job (which runs on KBn: associated with PKm:). The controlled job does input and output operations on its own keyboard, KB:. In effect, the controlled job does not know it is using a pseudo keyboard; only  the controlling job specifically uses a pseudo keyboard. Figure 4-1 shows the interaction  between the controlled and controlling jobs.

The system transfers data to the pseudo keyboard in full duplex mode. This mode means that strings transmitted by PUT statements are echoed in the output buffer of the associated  keyboard unit. The echo is then available to the controlling job by GET, INPUT, or INPUT LINE  statements. In addition, a CR character (CHR$(13)) sent to the PK input buffer returns from the KB buffer as a CR and LF -sequence.

Ed

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[Gerry Duprey]

PK = Pseudo Keyboard - fake keyboard.

These are used for running jobs in background (usually via the batch manager). The running job
"thinks" it's attached to a regular keyboard, but the input and output can be captured by a
controlling program.

As such, you generally want a few around (maximum number of batch processes generally is <= PK
count). You can also use PKs for things that work like the unix 'screen' command too (some DECUS
tapes have a tool like that). They can be handy. I used to configure around 8, but 4 is plenty.

KBn: numbers are assigned sequentially by RSTS as it enumerates the various type/classes of terminal
interface (in a fixed order). If you have a functioning DZ11, then based on your list, I'd expect
to see it listed after PK3 starting as "KB5" (I think as DZ0:, DZ1:, etc).

In later versions of RSTS, they also allowed an alternate KB format where it was KBcn where c was
the class of interface and n was the relative number of that interface. I think DZ11 were assigned
a class/device type of G, so the first DZ11 port would be both "KB5:" and "KBG0:".

While listing devices at the boot prompt is useful, I do not ever recall having to explicitly add
any devices, even when adding them after the system has been in use for a while. I had maybe one or
two times that I had to disable a device and at least one weirdo device I had to explicitly set the
address/vector for, but in general, if the device is physically (well, emulated) setup correctly,
you really should not need to be monkeying with anything at the boot prompt - if you do, it
generally suggests the problem lies with the (emulated) hardware config.

Gerry

On 2/3/22 11:44, Bob Alexander wrote:
> What is the PK: device?
>
> I booted up and in response to the Option? prompt I typed SET, then LIST, then ALL. It printed a
> bunch of devices but I think the relevant ones are:
>   KB0   TT:
>   KB1   PK0:
>   KB2   PK1:
>   KB3   PK2:
>   KB4   PK3:
>
> Does this mean the keyboards are not associated with the DZ11? simh's PDP-11 Simulator Usage manual
> doesn't mention a PK device.
>
> The SET command allows me to enable or disable a device (and the PK devices are already enabled) but
> does not appear to let me re-assign a KB to a DZ. Also, the list of devices does not include a DZ
> abbreviation.
>
> On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 11:18:25 AM UTC-5 Bob Alexander wrote:
>
> simh appears to have configured dz correctly:
>
> Simulation stopped, PC: 042536 (SOB R1,42534)
> sim> show dz
> DZ      address=17760100-17760107*, vector=300-304*, BR5, lines=8
>         attached to Line=1,Connect=/dev/ttyUSB0, 8b, 1 current connection
>
> On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 5:27:24 PM UTC-5 agn...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 5:32:58 AM UTC+11 Bob wrote:
>
> Sorry to be such high maintenance...
>
> I have RSTS running with the UART as KB0:. I've plugged in a USB to serial adapter, and

> if I give the Linux commandecho "hello" >/dev/ttyUSB0 the text is sent out the USB adapter.

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[Bob Alexander]

Thank you Ed and Gerry.

As I mentioned earlier, RSTS knows about the DZ11:

Option: HARDWARE LIST

  Name  Address Vector  Comments

     :

     :

  DZ0:   160100   300
  DZ1:   160110   310
  DZ2:   160120   320
  DZ3:   160130   330

But no DZ device appears in the SET LIST.

???

[Gerry Duprey]

Are you saying that there are no DZ devices in your list? Or no KBs that are associated with a DZ
in your list?

I don't recall enough about SET LIST to tell you more and if they are even supposed to.

The KB to DZ mapping is done my RSTS - the other devices you listed are 1:1 type devices.

When you boot RSTS, can you get a list of terminals? You mentioned TTYSET - will it list terminals?
Sorry, again, but my 7.x knowledge seems to have "aged out" of my brain, so not sure the exact
commands, but I'm 97.125% sure there is a way, with the system up, to list available TTYs (or one of
the system info /systat things show at least a count).

Gerry

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[Bob Alexander]

 There are no DZ devices in the Option? SET LIST ALL. DZ only appears in the Option? HARDWARE LIST.

TTYSET sees KB0 through KB4, but that doesn't mean much since they're pseudo-terminals. (TTYSET does not have a LIST command, but if I specify KB4: in a TTYSET command, it does it, whereas if I specify KB5:, it gives an error.)

SYSTAT does not list terminals.

I booted RSTS 10.1 and it works with multiple terminals. But I really would like to get RSTS 7 working.  

[Gerry Duprey]

Good investigative work!

SYSTAT showed a total terminal count, I thought, but never individual ones. Again, the mind
goes.... ;-)

If RSTS 10 works/shows the DZ and not RSTS 7, then likely the RSTS 7 system wasn't gened to include
DZ support. The 7.x period was marked by lots of PDPs still being small, and a lot of kernels were
only genned for minimal device support. By the time 10 came out, it was more common to have full
4MB PDPs and it was more common to include things like DZ and DHs (though I feel like I always had
to do a SYSGEN when someone has DHs).

That would explain why HARDWARE shows it (that is a simpler list of things that conform to the DEC
standard peripherals maps) and SET doesn't (which likely is what the kernel is seeing - no DZ11
support, no DZ listed).

Hopefully you have the 7.x SYSGEN kit. There are scripts that do most of the work (though I seem to
recall having to use HOOK.SAV to install the newly gened kernel - at least sometime). It's a
relatively tedious afair (but 17 year old me figured it out, so I could NOT have been too bad ;-) I
do recall the entire process could be done by booting the SYSGEN kit tape (so you'll need that and
to tell SIMH where the tape file is and attach it to a supported bootable tape drive - TS11s worked
for me "back in the day".

Gerry

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[Tony Nicholson]

As I mentioned earlier, RSTS knows about the DZ11:

Option: HARDWARE LIST

  Name  Address Vector  Comments

     :

     :

  DZ0:   160100   300
  DZ1:   160110   310
  DZ2:   160120   320
  DZ3:   160130   330

But no DZ device appears in the SET LIST.

The RSTS/E V7 system you're using is seeing 4 x DZ11 type devices.

This means you must have the number of lines for the dz device

set to 32 - i.e.

set dz enable

set dz 8b

set dz lines=32

...

 

When SIMH creates the DZ devices it should add four of them (and

autoconfigure the hardware addresses and vectors).  Is this what

SIMH pdp11 reports when you do a

sim> show dz
DZ      address=17760100-17760137*, vector=300-334*, BR5, lines=32
        attached to 127.0.0.1:4723, 8b, 0 current connections

I have my rsts7.ini configured with set dz lines=8 and this is what

a hardware list and set list kb: reports -

RSTS V7.0-07 SIMH 11/45 (DM0)


Option: HA LI

  Name  Address Vector  Comments
  TT:    177560   060
  RK:    177400   220   RK05F units: none

  RL:    174400   160   Units: 0(RL01) 1(RL02) 2(RL01) 3(RL01)

  RM:    177440   210   Units: 0(RK06) 1(RK06)

  TC:    177340   214

  TM:    172520   224
  PR0:   177550   070
  PP0:   177554   074
  LP0:   177514   200
  RX0:   177170   264
  DZ0:   160100   300

  KW11L  177546   100
  SR     177570
  DR     177570

  Hertz = 50.

  Other: FPU, SL


Option: SET LI KB:

  Name  Control Comments

  KB0   TT:
  KB1   PK0:
  KB2   PK1:
  KB3   PK2:
  KB4   PK3:

  KB5   DZ0:0
  KB6   DZ0:1
  KB7   DZ0:2
  KB8   DZ0:3
  KB9   DZ0:4
  KB10  DZ0:5
  KB11  DZ0:6
  KB12  DZ0:7


Option:

As others have said, you really need to do a sysgen so that the RSTS

monitor SIL matches your hardware.   You can do this using the

$CREATE.SAV and $SYSBAT.SAV programs (refer to the

RSTS/E V7.0 System Generation manual chapters 4 and 7 for details).

Tony