EDT written in Bliss11 on PDP-10

[Mark Matlock]

   I've heard somewhere that EDT for the PDP-11 was written in Bliss11 and that ran on the PDP-10. As I've used the PiDP-10, I've wished that EDT was available for TOPS-10. If the source code for EDT is out there somewhere, could it be compiled with Bliss10 for TOPS-10?

      It appears that Bliss10 is supplied with TOPS-10 on the PiDP-10, so I wonder why EDT was never added to the possible editors for TOPS-10? TECO is usable but it would be great if EDT was available as well.

[terry-...@glaver.org]

IIRC, there were enough differences between the various Bliss-xx languages that a simple recompile wouldn't have been sufficient. Whether it was do-able in a reasonable time budget, I don't know. I'd have to dig out my VMS listings discs to see what the VMS version is written in.

Humorously, the other question ("Can we have TECO?") comes up a lot more often. For the longest time, TECO on VMS was the RSX11 version running in compatibility mode. Once VAXes were being built that didn't have compatibility mode built in, DEC introduced the VAX-RSX emulation layered product. TECO had a "get out of jail free" license exemption to use the emulation even if the feature wasn't licensed.

TECO was eventually re-written (or possibly machine translated) into Macro-32 to create a native VMS executable. I suspect HPaqital still had nightmares about it until the end, because TECO on Alpha was a VESTed version of the VAX executable, and TECO on Itanium was an AESTed version of the VESTed version of the VAX executable. The last answer I got (before VSI burned all bridges with hobbyists) about TECO for VMS on x86-64 was "We're thinking about it".

[Mark Matlock]

Terri,

   Thanks for the background on Bliss and potential difficulty in modifying a VMS or PDP-11 EDT to the PDP-10.

   Thanks for bringing up TECO. I didn’t know any of its history of use after RSX. I used to use it in the past on RSX, but when I’ve tried to pick it up again on the PiDP-8 or PiDP-10, it has been a struggle. Then I remembered in RSX I had found some macro that made screen editing much easier. After just a bit of searching I found several files that included the commented TECO macro source TECEDT.TES written by Robin Miller in 1981 and updated by Glen Everhart in 1982.

   There was also a TECEDT.TEC which I think is the same without the extra comment text. A short TECEDT.DOC explains the use of the TECO EDT emulator and I include it below to provide some introduction on how it works. I tried it on my PDP-11/83 where I found it and it works pretty good. On a PiDP-11/70, it would work even better (faster). I’m going to attach the main files to this message and if Gmail and Google groups let them through maybe someone with some PDP-10 TECO expertise might have interest in them. On a RSX system the TECEDT.HLP needs to be put in LB:[1,2] for the TECEDT.TEC code to find it.

Best,

Mark

>TYPE TECEDT.DOC

        TECO EDT

        There is a new TECO program which is able to emulate EDT and

provides some handy capabilities. These are:

        * Drawing boxes on the screen

        * Editing with overprint rather than insert (to allow

        filling in the boxes without worry over how the

        rest of the code looks. Note that where there is

        no text in existence, the overprint mode is smart

        enough to insert it.

        To use:

        Type as in the following, where $ means ESCAPE, not the dollar

                sign:

>TEC/NOM

*EILB:[1,1]edt$$

 Editing macro loaded into Q-register I

*EByourfile.ext$$       ;if the file already exists, or

*EWnewfile.ext$$        ;if the file is a new one

*Y$MI$$

        The screen will now clear and display the start of the file.

EDT type screen commands may now be used to edit the file.

        Where it is desired to simply overwrite the text in place,

you can toggle the edit mode to permit this by typing control R.

        Width is set up by gold<count><control-W>, where count over

25 is the width. This controls the Fill action.

        To enter DRAW mode, type GOLD twice. The screen will announce

"Draw mode" at the bottom. Now you begin to fill in boxes.

        The editor then draws characters wherever you move the cursor

with the direction keys. The character used is initially "*" but may be

changed at any time by typing Control G and then entering the desired

character. To exit this mode, type GOLD twice again.

        Once you create your boxes, you need to enter overprint mode

editing to edit inside them. Do so with control R and use search

or cursor control to position yourself. Don't type carriage

return or use the DELete key; they insert the return character or

delete a character respectively. Instead backspace over errors and

type over them. To go to the start of a line inside a box, using the

cursor control to go down a column and then using the space reverse

one word, then forward a character, gets you there reasonably easily.

        Exiting is done by control Z. TECO/EDT will close the file

and exit automatically. If you didn't give a filename, it will

ask for one. It also occasionally autosaves the file to prevent

mistakes or crashes from losing your work; this happens every

page or so. 

[Ric Werme]

I found a TECO that runs on my old Linux system, LinuxMint 18.  Okay, old, decrepit Linux system. I haven't tried it on my new Linux system LinuxMint 22. Oh dear, no more Python 2 and 2to3 is flagged deprecated.  Must be time to convert.  (and 2to3 may be flagging but not converting some V1.5.2 code when I first embraced Python.)

I use that TECO from time to time, largely for loops to search and replace pairs of start and end strings, e.g. in HTML files.  The READ.ME starts with:

                        TECO for UNIX
                (original by Matt Fichtenbaum;
        adaptation for PTF release by Eric Raymond)

The code in this directory started out life as Matt Fichtenbaum's Ultrix
Teco implementation from 1986.  I've supplied an improved Makefile and a
real man page, rescued the two sample profiles from invisibility, and brought
the code up to strict ANSI/POSIX compliance.

I see interesting (and recent!) stuff at https://www.google.com/search?q=TECO+for+UNIX+Fichtenbaum :

teco/READ.ME at master · matthiasr/teco
GitHub
https://github.com › matthiasr › teco › blob › READ
TECO for UNIX (original by Matt Fichtenbaum; adaptation for PTF release by Eric Raymond) The code in this directory started out life as Matt Fichtenbaum's ...

TECO for PDP-11
Ibiblio
https://www.ibiblio.org › pub › computer-science › history
These files contain a colection of things TECO from DECUS and other sources. Originally, this collection was compiled and submitted to the DECUS Software ...

SciTECO v2.4.0 has been released, finally. 🥚🐰 This is ...
Facebook · PDP-11
2 comments · 3 weeks ago
SciTECO v2.4.0 has been released, finally. This is arguably the first TECO with mouse support since Matt Fichtenbaum's "TECO for MS-DOS".

TECO macro which calculates Pi
iwriteiam.nl
http://www.iwriteiam.nl › HaPi_TECO_macro
The above macro does work (according to Mark Henderson) with some current TECO implementations (Pete Siemsen's TECOC and Matt Fichtenbaum's UNIX TECO). E.g.

[Ric Werme]

Re comments about BLISS-10.

This is probably useful only for historical purposes.  I have the original BLISS manual when it was first released at CMU, years before anyone started a BLISS-11 project.  I assume this is quite different than any BLISS-10 released by DEC.  IIRC, Ron(?) Brender* was a DEC employee working at CMU.  Another DEC person there for a while was Gordon Bell.

[pbi...@gmail.com]

Appears to be: https://kilthub.cmu.edu/articles/journal_contribution/Bliss_reference_manual_a_basic_language_for_implementation_of_system_software_for_the_PDP-10/6603914

January 15, 1970

 

Although “R. Brender” doesn’t get a mention.  Might have been added as an afterthought?

 

From: pid...@googlegroups.com <pid...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Ric Werme
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2025 8:32 AM
To: PiDP-10 <pid...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [pidp-10] EDT written in Bliss11 on PDP-10

 

Re comments about BLISS-10.

This is probably useful only for historical purposes.  I have the original BLISS manual when it was first released at CMU, years before anyone started a BLISS-11 project.  I assume this is quite different than any BLISS-10 released by DEC.  IIRC, Ron(?) Brender* was a DEC employee working at CMU.  Another DEC person there for a while was Gordon Bell.

---

[Mark Matlock]

Ric,
Thanks for the links you pointed out. One of them took me to the Glen Everhart submission to the DECUS Fall 1982 RSX SIG tape. In it I found a TECO.INI file (that I did not have) which greatly simplifies the TECEDT.TEC startup.

[312,315] README.1ST
FALL 1982 COLLECTION

TECEDT .DOC - This is a TECO macro that runs (RSX or VMS) in TECO
to emulate EDT V2. I have cleaned up the draw and overprint
modes (which EDT lacks) and added text justification. Note
that the ^W key is used to set width (a la straight TECO)
for justification. This makes it able to do some crude
word processing for those with time but not much money. The
TECO.INI here allows TEC/ED file to load [1,1]EDT.TEC
or TEC/VT to load [1,1]VTEDIT.TEC. The only glitch in it
that I've seen is that to create a file I need to say
file=NL:, and TEC/ED all by itself will not work; it requires
a file (or an output=input). Using this macro, one need
not have VTEDIT.TEC in each UIC to avoid having terminals
set to VT52 mode, and it makes using the EDT emulator
easy. Note that TECO.INI seems not to run well on VMS;
I haven't investigated.
TECEDT .HLP
TECEDT .TEC
TECEDT .TES
TECO .INI

Now I can use the EDT version of TECO with the simple command:
>TEC/ED file.ext

Also, the TECO version of EDT has a number of enhancements over actual EDT.

Now, if I (or someone smarter) can figure out if/how these TECO macros can be moved to the PiDP-10.

Best,
Mark

> On May 16, 2025, at 7:19 AM, Ric Werme <r...@wermenh.com> wrote:
>
> I found a TECO that runs on my old Linux system, LinuxMint 18. Okay, old, decrepit Linux system. I haven't tried it on my new Linux system LinuxMint 22. Oh dear, no more Python 2 and 2to3 is flagged deprecated. Must be time to convert. (and 2to3 may be flagging but not converting some V1.5.2 code when I first embraced Python.)

[Ric Werme]

pbirkel commented on the R Bender addition.

It turns out I don't have the "First Edition", his link goes to that one.

My copy is the fourth revision, dated October 25, 1971.  Among the additions are seven small example programs (the first is by "C. Geschke and W. Wulf") that remind me of the lack of a decent I/O package.  Section 5 (Compiler Implementation) has also been added.

Before the seeing the link to the CMU file, Clem Cole asked if I could scan my copy.  There's enough new content so it's worth the effort.  I will do that, it should go well.  I'll look into getting it back to CMU and up to archive.org too.  I have no idea about later revisions, though I recall some work on a not terribly good I/O package.

[Guy Sotomayor]

Please make sure that you talk to Al so that a copy can go up on bitsavers.

TTFN - Guy

On May 16, 2025, at 2:51 PM, Ric Werme <r...@wermenh.com> wrote:

pbirkel commented on the R Bender addition.

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[terry-...@glaver.org]

I have the following files here that I could make available. Hopefully changing the font will get rid of the proportional spacing, since we don't have a [code] tag here.

The [DECUS-SIG-TAPES-ON-HOLD...] tree is because I kept getting bogus DMCA takedown notices (a file on a SIG tape has same name as an unrelated commercial product, etc.). I asked DECUS to either indemnify me or provide their own DMCA contact, and they declined to do either, so the tapes got hidden outside the FTP tree. GCE continued to send me "tapes" (on CD by that point) which I never uploaded. I'd have to hunt through piles of stuff to try  to find them, though.

The TECOSIG.TPC sounds interesting, though. It was imaged to tape on 25-FEB-1998 and is 70627 blocks long. I could probably mount the image in SIMH and see what's exactly on there if people are curious.

Note that there are some bogus matches in the following (DATECONVERSION-SRC.TXT, for example).

2_SERVER::$ dir dka0:[*...]*teco*.*

Directory DKA0:[DECUS-SIG-TAPES-ON-HOLD.VLT97A.VMSLT97A]

TECOUPDS.DIR;1      

Total of 1 file.

Directory DKA0:[DECUS-SIG-TAPES-ON-HOLD.VLT97A.VMSLT97A.NET97A]

COMPUTE-PI-IN-TECO.SRC;1                HOW_TECO_IS_VESTED.TXT;1
ITS_TECO_SPECIAL_STUFF.TXT;1            MAIL_EDIT_TECO.HOW;1

Total of 4 files.

Directory DKA0:[DECUS-SIG-TAPES-ON-HOLD.VLT97A.VMSLT97A.TECOUPDS]

PTF_TECO.TGZ;1      TECO11-40.TGZ;1     

Total of 2 files.

Directory DKA0:[DECUS-SIG-TAPES-ON-HOLD.VLT98A.VLT98B.BULLETIN]

CREATECO.COM;1      

Total of 1 file.

Directory DKA0:[DECUS-SIG-TAPES-ON-HOLD.VLT98A.VMSLT98A.NET98A]

DATECONVERSION-SRC.TXT;1                TECO-SITE-POINTER.TXT;1

Total of 2 files.

Directory DKA0:[DECUS-SIG-TAPES-ON-HOLD.VLT98B.VMSLT98B.BULLETIN]

CREATECO.COM;1      

Total of 1 file.

Directory DKA0:[DECUS-SIG-TAPES-ON-HOLD.VLT99A.VMSLT99A.NET]

TECO-MULTIFILE-EDIT-EXAMPLE.TXT;1       TECOC.ZIP;1         

Total of 2 files.

Directory DKA0:[DECUS-SIG-TAPES-ON-HOLD.VLT99B.VMSLT99B.VU]

TECOC-146.DIR;1     TECOC146.TAR;1      TECOC146.ZIP;1      

Total of 3 files.

Directory DKA0:[DECUS-SIG-TAPES-ON-HOLD.VLT99B.VMSLT99B.VU.TECOC-146]

MAKETECO.BAT;1      TECO.BAT;1          TECO.TES;1          TECOC.C;1          
TECOC.EXE;1         TECOC.H;1           TECOC.LNK;1         TECOC.OPT;1        
TECOC.RNH;1         TECOC146.ZIP;1      TECOIN.TES;1        

Total of 11 files.

Directory DKA0:[FROM_DAT.DIA1.SPECIAL.RSTS]

TECOSIG.TPC;1       

Total of 1 file.

[Tim Radde]

I used TECO back in my college days and liked it.   Haven't used it for 45 years so I don't remember how to use it.

[Mark Matlock]

Terri,

    I’ve learned a bit more about the TECO EDT emulation and it requires TECO V40 and TECO V36 doesn’t seem to work with it. I don’t know what version of TECO was available for TOPS-10 or TOPS-20, but the DEC-11-UTEC_tecoV40.pdf available on bitsavers has a publishing date of May 1990 which is suprisingly late, but it has a preface from the earlier 1985 TECO V40 manual. It does cover TECO-10 Version 3 (I think version numbers here must have started over because the TECO-10 version in my 1978 TECO Pocket guide covered TECO-8 V5, TECO-10 V24, and TECO-11 V29.

   The 1985 preface which is included in the 1990 TECO V40 manual says that TECO-32 a “brute force translation” of TECO-11 to VAX native mode was done by Richard Murphy and included in VMS V5.0 by Andrew Goldstein. 

    In the section on “scope” commands required for screen editing, you can set different terminal types and interestingly there is a VT61 type that is for TECO-10 only. So later versions of TECO-10 must have some scope command capability and even if it couldn’t run the EDT macro any scope version of TECO-10 for VT100 or even VT52 would be helpful. So this TECO-10 V3 mentioned is something I’m looking for. In that same section GIGI is mentioned as a VK100 as a terminal type.

   In regard to the DECUS SIG tapes for VAX/VMS, the files you list below look VERY interesting. I found that my VAXstation 4000/90A (VMS V6.1) does have TECO-32 and it can run the TECEDT.TEC so that quite nice. The TECO.INI that simplifies the startup doesn’t but I know it has some RSX specific directory references.

   Since the files you listed below come from 1997-1999, they would be quite interesting to see. I especially would be interested in the

Directory DKA0:[DECUS-SIG-TAPES-ON-HOLD.VLT99B.VMSLT99B.VU.TECOC-146]

Because it appears to have source code for TECO in C as well as a batch job that could build it on VMS.

The Directory DKA0:[FROM_DAT.DIA1.SPECIAL.RSTS]TECOSIG.TPC;1 you mention would be interesting as it appears to be for RSTS. In the V40 manual it mentions that TECO has special handling for Basic-Plus & Basic-Plus-2 source files.

Thanks for everything,

Mark

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[terry-...@glaver.org]

On Saturday, May 17, 2025 at 11:10:24 AM UTC-4 ma...@rsx11m.com wrote:

   In regard to the DECUS SIG tapes for VAX/VMS, the files you list below look VERY interesting. I found that my VAXstation 4000/90A (VMS V6.1) does have TECO-32 and it can run the TECEDT.TEC so that quite nice. The TECO.INI that simplifies the startup doesn’t but I know it has some RSX specific directory references.

   Since the files you listed below come from 1997-1999, they would be quite interesting to see. I especially would be interested in the

Directory DKA0:[DECUS-SIG-TAPES-ON-HOLD.VLT99B.VMSLT99B.VU.TECOC-146]

Because it appears to have source code for TECO in C as well as a batch job that could build it on VMS.

You can find it at https://glaver.org/transient/TECOC-146.ZIP - it was zipped with the

"preserve VMS attributes" flag so you should be good to unzip under VMS. In non-VMS

environments, the binary bits (.exe, etc.) shouldn't matter anyway.

 

The Directory DKA0:[FROM_DAT.DIA1.SPECIAL.RSTS]TECOSIG.TPC;1 you mention would be interesting as it appears to be for RSTS. In the V40 manual it mentions that TECO has special handling for Basic-Plus & Basic-Plus-2 source files.

This one is a different can of eels. simh recognizes it as a TPC format tape:

sim> att tu0 /home/pi/tecosig.tpc
%SIM-INFO: TU0: unit is read only
%SIM-INFO: TU0: Tape Image '/home/pi/tecosig.tpc' scanned as TPC format
%SIM-INFO: contains 35989503 bytes of tape data (10392 records, 74930 tapemarks)
%SIM-INFO: 4294953840 bytes of unexamined data remain in the tape image file

but it appears to not be in either ANSI or (PDP-11) DOS format:

$ mou/form=dos mm0:
%Device is write protected
Density is 800
?Not a DOS format tape
$ dism/nounl mm0:
$ mou/form=ansi mm0:
%Device is write protected
Density is 800
?Not an ANSI format tape

It certainly looks like an ANSI format tape. Maybe somewhere along the way it got

its attributes scrambled, although they look similar to other VMSTPC tape images

I have:

Directory DKA0:[FROM_DAT.DIA3.KITS]

RSTS_V10_0_INSTALL.TAP;1                  File ID:  (248041,47,0)        
Size:        41631/41820      Owner:    [SYSPROG,TERRY]
Created:    24-NOV-1993 06:32:36.13
Modified:   24-NOV-1993 06:35:09.35 (1)
Expires:    <None specified>
Backup:     <No backup recorded>
Effective:  <None specified>
Recording:  <None specified>
Accessed:    9-MAY-2011 09:52:47.13
Attr Mod:   24-NOV-1993 06:35:09.35
Data Mod:   24-NOV-1993 06:35:09.35
Linkcount:  1
File organization:  Sequential
Shelved state:      Online
Caching attribute:  Writethrough
File attributes:    Allocation: 41820, Extend: 250, Global buffer count: 0
                    No version limit
Record format:      Variable length, maximum 32768 bytes, longest 8192 bytes
Record attributes:  None
RMS attributes:     None
Journaling enabled: None
File protection:    System:RWED, Owner:RWED, Group:, World:
Access Cntrl List:  None
Client attributes:  None

Total of 1 file, 41631/41820 blocks.

Directory DKA0:[FROM_DAT.DIA1.SPECIAL.RSTS]

TECOSIG.TPC;1                 File ID:  (158271,296,0)        
Size:        70627/70797      Owner:    [SYSPROG,TERRY]
Created:    25-FEB-1998 20:56:01.34
Modified:   25-FEB-1998 21:17:20.57 (2)
Expires:    <None specified>
Backup:     <No backup recorded>
Effective:  <None specified>
Recording:  <None specified>
Accessed:    9-MAY-2011 06:08:15.50
Attr Mod:   25-FEB-1998 21:17:20.57
Data Mod:   25-FEB-1998 21:17:20.57
Linkcount:  1
File organization:  Sequential
Shelved state:      Online
Caching attribute:  Writethrough
File attributes:    Allocation: 70797, Extend: 250, Global buffer count: 0
                    No version limit
Record format:      Variable length, maximum 32768 bytes, longest 8192 bytes
Record attributes:  None
RMS attributes:     None
Journaling enabled: None
File protection:    System:RWED, Owner:RWED, Group:RE, World:RE
Access Cntrl List:  None
Client attributes:  None

Total of 1 file, 70627/70797 blocks.

If I do a "strings" on the .TPC fle, it sure looks like it is an ANSI tape with a backup saveset

on it:

(0:7) gate:/sysprog/terry# strings tecosig.tpc | more
VOL1TECO                             D%C          1                            3
HDR1TECO.BCK         TECO  00010001000100 89020 00000 000000DECVMSBACKUP        
HDR2F0819208192                     M             00                            
TECO.BCK
TECO.BCK@
BACKUP/INTERCHANGE/REWIND/DENSITY=6250 [...]*.* $2$MUA0:TECO.BCK
PETE        
V4.7    
_VNIS03::
_$2$MUA0:
V4.7
[PETE.TECO]AAAREADME.TXT;27

That certainly looks like an ANSI tape written by user PETE on VMS 4.7.

I put it up at https://www.glaver.org/transient/tecosig.zip (I zipped it on VMS to

preserve its file attributes when unzipped on a VMS system).

[Mark Matlock]

Terri,

   Thanks so much for the two files with the TECOC-146.ZIP and TECOSIG.ZIP, I downloaded them and should be able to take a look at them tomorrow. I’ll be sure to unzip them in VMS to get the attributes correct. The TECO C source code should be interesting to scan through as well as having a starting point for anything else.

   It’s great that you have been able to preserve such a large amount of DEC software!

Best,

Mark

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[dave avery]

I figured out the tecosig.tpc  file -  it's a 16bit format not 32 so the blocksizes are 16 bits. i hacked a copy of vaxbackup and read it successfully on on a linux machine. 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/bze35hs7ct19p2vlma9ff/tecosig1.zip?rlkey=q94z2iixk9jew99cdlnl9s3w8&st=5hfihmko&dl=0   is a zip of the full resulting tree

i would include the TOC here but it's 2680 lines long :)   https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7vrflohdyv0n4plk6zzn8/tecosig.toc?rlkey=89pdtqkxwmsiqjzvkwqp6z3n3&st=v69pdo0k&dl=0

[dave avery]

from the tecosig.tpc file [PETE.TECO]AAAREADME.TXT :

        This directory tree contains a collection of TECO stuff:

[.EDMACS]       Mitch Bloom's EMACS for TECO-11 under RSTS/E.  This directory
                contains the contents of DECUS Software Library entry 11-737.

[.GLEASON]      Patrick Gleason's TECOs,  in C and in assembly language.
                Note: the C version has never compiled.

[.LIDSTER]      Ken Lidster's macros.

[.MACROS]       Pete Siemsen's macro library.

[.MANUAL]       The newest manual for "Standard" TECO,  dated May 1985.

[.RSTS]         TECO stuff from RSTS/E v9.5, thanks to Mark Derrick.
                Contains 1982 sources of VTEDIT, SQU, etc. with some
                documentation.  I put this stuff in [.MACROS] and organized
                it there.

[.RSX...]       Everything I could find in the RSX SIG tapes relating to TECO.

[.SMITH]        Kelvin Smith's macros for munging BASIC under RSTS, and
                documentation for TECO initialization for RSTS and VMS.

[.TECO11]       Source code for TECO-11 v36 (mixed mode for VMS).

[.TECO32_FOR_V4]        Native mode TECO for VMS, linked under v4 so it will
                run under v4.  This is TECO-11 brute-force translated to
                MACRO32.  It's much faster than TECO-11.

[.TECOC]        Pete Siemsen's TECO in C for VAX/VMS and (limping) XENIX.

[.VMS...]       Teco stuff from a VMS SIG CD-Rom disc, 1984-1987.

[.UTECO]        Matt Fichtenbaum's TECO in C (14 Jan 87) for Ultrix and SUNs.

[.YMILES]       Ya'akov Miles's TECO in C version 1.04 (12 Jun 88) for IBM PCs.

dave

On Sunday, May 18, 2025 at 8:10:02 PM UTC-6 ma...@rsx11m.com wrote:

[Mark Matlock]

Dave,

   Thanks for your work on the TECOSIG.TPC file! I would have been stymied by the effort needed to read it.

Best Regards,

Mark

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