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Be sure to bring this up at the meeting on Friday (I won't be there) and request everyone in attendance voice their opinions on this thread.
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 9:58 AM Chris Kankiewicz <ch...@chriskankiewicz.com> wrote:
I'm open to moving the location. I don't care for Lux for many reasons.
On Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 10:04 PM me <yael....@gmail.com> wrote:
Totenkopf tattoos. Lots of Death in June t-shirts. A few others. I haven't seen any outright swastikas yet.--
On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 6:59:03 PM UTC-7, Enrique wrote:What type of fascist tattoos / wear do they have? Also, what cryptofascist bands do they promote?
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people are upset over Death in June t shirts? I didn't even know people still wore them. They were huge with the coffee scene crowd when I was in college, them along with joy division, new order, Siouxsie and the Banshees, and throbbing gristle used nazi images a lot, wonder if it has somethign to do with growing up in a post WW2 england.On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 8:29 AM, Chris Kankiewicz <ch...@chriskankiewicz.com> wrote:
Be sure to bring this up at the meeting on Friday (I won't be there) and request everyone in attendance voice their opinions on this thread.
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 9:58 AM Chris Kankiewicz <ch...@chriskankiewicz.com> wrote:
I'm open to moving the location. I don't care for Lux for many reasons.
On Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 10:04 PM me <yael....@gmail.com> wrote:
Totenkopf tattoos. Lots of Death in June t-shirts. A few others. I haven't seen any outright swastikas yet.--
On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 6:59:03 PM UTC-7, Enrique wrote:What type of fascist tattoos / wear do they have? Also, what cryptofascist bands do they promote?
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people are upset over Death in June t shirts? I didn't even know people still wore them. They were huge with the coffee scene crowd when I was in college, them along with joy division, new order, Siouxsie and the Banshees, and throbbing gristle used nazi images a lot, wonder if it has somethign to do with growing up in a post WW2 england.
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 8:29 AM, Chris Kankiewicz <ch...@chriskankiewicz.com> wrote:
Be sure to bring this up at the meeting on Friday (I won't be there) and request everyone in attendance voice their opinions on this thread.
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 9:58 AM Chris Kankiewicz <ch...@chriskankiewicz.com> wrote:
I'm open to moving the location. I don't care for Lux for many reasons.
On Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 10:04 PM me <yael....@gmail.com> wrote:
Totenkopf tattoos. Lots of Death in June t-shirts. A few others. I haven't seen any outright swastikas yet.--
On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 6:59:03 PM UTC-7, Enrique wrote:What type of fascist tattoos / wear do they have? Also, what cryptofascist bands do they promote?
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people are upset over Death in June t shirts? I didn't even know people still wore them. They were huge with the coffee scene crowd when I was in college, them along with joy division, new order, Siouxsie and the Banshees, and throbbing gristle used nazi images a lot, wonder if it has somethign to do with growing up in a post WW2 england.
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 8:29 AM, Chris Kankiewicz <ch...@chriskankiewicz.com> wrote:
Be sure to bring this up at the meeting on Friday (I won't be there) and request everyone in attendance voice their opinions on this thread.
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 9:58 AM Chris Kankiewicz <ch...@chriskankiewicz.com> wrote:
I'm open to moving the location. I don't care for Lux for many reasons.
On Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 10:04 PM me <yael....@gmail.com> wrote:
Totenkopf tattoos. Lots of Death in June t-shirts. A few others. I haven't seen any outright swastikas yet.--
On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 6:59:03 PM UTC-7, Enrique wrote:What type of fascist tattoos / wear do they have? Also, what cryptofascist bands do they promote?
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In addition to DIJ supporting fascist ideology and aesthetics by (for example) wearing nazi Waffen-SS uniforms on stage, and including loops from fascist marching songs in their music, Douglas Pearce has made donations to a fascist Croatian military hospital (which he said was not “purely a humanitarian gesture. It was a cultural one. A socio-Euro political one.” The band has also refused to play shows being promoted as anti-racist, and has collaborated with openly fascist artists.
I'm happy to provide links and references, and happy to also explain why Totenkopf tattoos are associated with Nazis. The 3rd SS Panzer Division "Totenkopf" was one of 38 divisions of the Waffen-SS of Nazi Germany during World War II.
As far as parking at Grand, there is parking across the street at Public Market, as well as plenty of street parking.
Whatever it is, it seems pretty irresponsible to go around labeling people fascists for wearing shirts of a band that _might_ be racist.
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 09:02 Casey Dekker <case...@gmail.com> wrote:
people are upset over Death in June t shirts? I didn't even know people still wore them. They were huge with the coffee scene crowd when I was in college, them along with joy division, new order, Siouxsie and the Banshees, and throbbing gristle used nazi images a lot, wonder if it has somethign to do with growing up in a post WW2 england.On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 8:29 AM, Chris Kankiewicz <ch...@chriskankiewicz.com> wrote:
Be sure to bring this up at the meeting on Friday (I won't be there) and request everyone in attendance voice their opinions on this thread.
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 9:58 AM Chris Kankiewicz <ch...@chriskankiewicz.com> wrote:
I'm open to moving the location. I don't care for Lux for many reasons.
On Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 10:04 PM me <yael....@gmail.com> wrote:
Totenkopf tattoos. Lots of Death in June t-shirts. A few others. I haven't seen any outright swastikas yet.--
On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 6:59:03 PM UTC-7, Enrique wrote:What type of fascist tattoos / wear do they have? Also, what cryptofascist bands do they promote?
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Lux was never a good location, in my opinion. It was hard to even have a regular conversation in there it was so loud. Presentations we're never going to happen. And the space was never good enough either, every time I went, the group had to split up since there wasn't enough room.-AltI think HeatSync is the best location still. We're a bunch of hackers in need of a space to meet, they're a HackerSpace. It kinda works. I started hearing that we were running out of space at HeatSync due to another group meeting at the same time, but perhaps that's changed.Also, I have a thing I'd like to speak about next meeting. Though historically the August meeting tends to be a ghost town due to def con. So maybe September.
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 9:02 AM Casey Dekker <case...@gmail.com> wrote:
people are upset over Death in June t shirts? I didn't even know people still wore them. They were huge with the coffee scene crowd when I was in college, them along with joy division, new order, Siouxsie and the Banshees, and throbbing gristle used nazi images a lot, wonder if it has somethign to do with growing up in a post WW2 england.
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 8:29 AM, Chris Kankiewicz <ch...@chriskankiewicz.com> wrote:
Be sure to bring this up at the meeting on Friday (I won't be there) and request everyone in attendance voice their opinions on this thread.
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 9:58 AM Chris Kankiewicz <ch...@chriskankiewicz.com> wrote:
I'm open to moving the location. I don't care for Lux for many reasons.
On Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 10:04 PM me <yael....@gmail.com> wrote:
Totenkopf tattoos. Lots of Death in June t-shirts. A few others. I haven't seen any outright swastikas yet.--
On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 6:59:03 PM UTC-7, Enrique wrote:What type of fascist tattoos / wear do they have? Also, what cryptofascist bands do they promote?
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On Jul 31, 2018 9:02 AM, "Casey Dekker" <case...@gmail.com> wrote:
people are upset over Death in June t shirts? I didn't even know people still wore them. They were huge with the coffee scene crowd when I was in college, them along with joy division, new order, Siouxsie and the Banshees, and throbbing gristle used nazi images a lot, wonder if it has somethign to do with growing up in a post WW2 england.
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 8:29 AM, Chris Kankiewicz <ch...@chriskankiewicz.com> wrote:
Be sure to bring this up at the meeting on Friday (I won't be there) and request everyone in attendance voice their opinions on this thread.
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 9:58 AM Chris Kankiewicz <ch...@chriskankiewicz.com> wrote:
I'm open to moving the location. I don't care for Lux for many reasons.
On Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 10:04 PM me <yael....@gmail.com> wrote:
Totenkopf tattoos. Lots of Death in June t-shirts. A few others. I haven't seen any outright swastikas yet.--
On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 6:59:03 PM UTC-7, Enrique wrote:What type of fascist tattoos / wear do they have? Also, what cryptofascist bands do they promote?
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Do you mean Douglas Pearce? Care to explain why Patrick Kill disassociated himself from Pearce due to racism and intolerance? Surely he would’ve been aware of the context?
What context would explain Pearce saying that he's very comfortable with Eurocentric/Racialist fans? Dedicating a song from stage to the neo-Nazi group White Wolves? Posting a valedictory message to their Yahoogroup forum following Anders Breivik’s Utoya massacre and mainland bombing?
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 9:37 AM, Casey Dekker <terror...@gmail.com> wrote:
Context is important. Those images were fairly popular amongst the homosexual fetish scene of 1970s Britain, which guy Pearce was involved with. Mainly as an antiestablishment shock tool. Now it’s kind of a anvant-garde social disruption type thing much like Laibach and negative land using the same tactics. Purposely being ambiguous in their actual views as a way to stir up dialogue.--Sent from my iPhoneIn addition to DIJ supporting fascist ideology and aesthetics by (for example) wearing nazi Waffen-SS uniforms on stage, and including loops from fascist marching songs in their music, Douglas Pearce has made donations to a fascist Croatian military hospital (which he said was not “purely a humanitarian gesture. It was a cultural one. A socio-Euro political one.” The band has also refused to play shows being promoted as anti-racist, and has collaborated with openly fascist artists.
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If Yael feels uncomfortable, we can't say that they don't. And they brought up an alternative, which is more than what many others do. So we should discount them.Now Yael, if the group is not able to find a better venue, would you be OK with that?I do really enjoy having the meetings in Lux, or at least in the Phoenix area. HSL was too much of an inconvience and why I didn't go to 2600 for a while. So Lux is my vote if we're keeping count.I've heard presentations brought up quite a bit over the years, but have only seen a handful. And I will admit HSL was a good venue for that. But, if the debate comes down to places we can have presentations VS places where we'd have better attendance, I'd have go with attendance. Maybe we could find a way to get a room at ASU or other local school?I won't be at the August meeting, so I thought I'd put my $.02 here.
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018, 12:49 PM Yael Grauer <yael....@gmail.com> wrote:
Do you mean Douglas Pearce? Care to explain why Patrick Kill disassociated himself from Pearce due to racism and intolerance? Surely he would’ve been aware of the context?
What context would explain Pearce saying that he's very comfortable with Eurocentric/Racialist fans? Dedicating a song from stage to the neo-Nazi group White Wolves? Posting a valedictory message to their Yahoogroup forum following Anders Breivik’s Utoya massacre and mainland bombing?
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 9:37 AM, Casey Dekker <terror...@gmail.com> wrote:
Context is important. Those images were fairly popular amongst the homosexual fetish scene of 1970s Britain, which guy Pearce was involved with. Mainly as an antiestablishment shock tool. Now it’s kind of a anvant-garde social disruption type thing much like Laibach and negative land using the same tactics. Purposely being ambiguous in their actual views as a way to stir up dialogue.--Sent from my iPhoneIn addition to DIJ supporting fascist ideology and aesthetics by (for example) wearing nazi Waffen-SS uniforms on stage, and including loops from fascist marching songs in their music, Douglas Pearce has made donations to a fascist Croatian military hospital (which he said was not “purely a humanitarian gesture. It was a cultural one. A socio-Euro political one.” The band has also refused to play shows being promoted as anti-racist, and has collaborated with openly fascist artists.
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do mean douglas, trying to do too much at once and mixed names up. lolHe could be a facist for all I know, I know he doesn't claim to be one, also doesn't claim to not be one. The truth is no one should care outside his circle, same with the people that like his band. I'm not arrogant enough to assume that I know the motivations and reasonings for someone wearing a shirt of a band that uses imagary that may just be trolling or maybe somethign more nefarious. I could ask the person why they are wearing it, most likley I wouldn't care so I wouldn't ask because it doesn't affect me in anyway, I'm too bust most of the time focusing on my myself, family and friends to really concern myself with the shirt of a complete stranger. I'm all about personal freedoms, the more the better even if i disagreew ith how someone uses them. with also lends to the group deciding it's an issue and changes vebues I'm all for that too. I haven't even made it to a meeting in a few years due to schedule and rarely chime in even. This just caught my eye.
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Yael Grauer <yael....@gmail.com> wrote:
Do you mean Douglas Pearce? Care to explain why Patrick Kill disassociated himself from Pearce due to racism and intolerance? Surely he would’ve been aware of the context?
What context would explain Pearce saying that he's very comfortable with Eurocentric/Racialist fans? Dedicating a song from stage to the neo-Nazi group White Wolves? Posting a valedictory message to their Yahoogroup forum following Anders Breivik’s Utoya massacre and mainland bombing?
Yael Grauer
website: https://yaelwrites.com
portfolio: http://yaelgrauer.contently.com
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 9:37 AM, Casey Dekker <terror...@gmail.com> wrote:
--Context is important. Those images were fairly popular amongst the homosexual fetish scene of 1970s Britain, which guy Pearce was involved with. Mainly as an antiestablishment shock tool. Now it’s kind of a anvant-garde social disruption type thing much like Laibach and negative land using the same tactics. Purposely being ambiguous in their actual views as a way to stir up dialogue.Sent from my iPhoneIn addition to DIJ supporting fascist ideology and aesthetics by (for example) wearing nazi Waffen-SS uniforms on stage, and including loops from fascist marching songs in their music, Douglas Pearce has made donations to a fascist Croatian military hospital (which he said was not “purely a humanitarian gesture. It was a cultural one. A socio-Euro political one.” The band has also refused to play shows being promoted as anti-racist, and has collaborated with openly fascist artists.
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Much like anything else in life, sometimes, you just have to take the first step if you want to go in the pool. Some of the ost amazing time ,and also food, I have ever had in my life were at places that most people would not dare venture into. Some of the most interesting discussion I have ever had was with someone who had a polar opposite believes than I do. At the end of the discussion, we became closer friends than before. Don't let fear or anything else get into the way of new things, curiosity and discovery.
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I expressed on Twitter that I’d love it if a different location was considered and was told to bring that concern to this list, and so that’s what I did.Seems you have already made up your mind and want to convince us all of it.
I for one do not like anyone who has brought drama into what are nice, candid, and uninterrupted meetings.
If you feel uncomfortable at the meeting location, don't come. Don't create drama either.
Most of us who attend the meetings have not experienced this toxic environment you speak of, and you seem the type who wants to not only get their 2 cents in, but prove it, force everyone to view it the way you do, and to ultimately win. This is not the spirit and curiosity I attend 2600 meetings for, and I do not welcome people who want to create factions, dismiss people, or talk behind people's backs simply because they might wear a certain band shirt, or have a tattoo. You cannot judge a book by it's cover.
If people are not in my business, leave me and my friends alone, are not actively stopping me from my freedom of speech or rights as a human, and not getting in my way, perhaps they are even being a generally good person, that's all I ask. Never had an ounce of issue with them accepting our group, or the patrons bothering us, even though we're an ethnically diverse bunch. If it had happened, we'd have moved rather quickly.
On Tuesday, July 31, 2018 at 11:15:46 AM UTC-7, me wrote:Much like anything else in life, sometimes, you just have to take the first step if you want to go in the pool. Some of the ost amazing time ,and also food, I have ever had in my life were at places that most people would not dare venture into. Some of the most interesting discussion I have ever had was with someone who had a polar opposite believes than I do. At the end of the discussion, we became closer friends than before. Don't let fear or anything else get into the way of new things, curiosity and discovery.Choosing not to give my money to fascists, after spending many many evenings at said coffeeshop, is not "letting fear get in the way of new things, curiosity and discovery." It's making an informed decision.But I agree--sometimes you have to take the first step if you want to go in the pool. It can be amazing to have principles and act on them by, for example, deciding to frequent establishments that don't employ fascists.
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