Unusual first name

[bx...@yahoo.com]

In researching the Dukes of Hamilton and Brandon, I was very surprised to find that the 3rd son of the 4th Duke/1st Duke was named Anne.  Apparently, he was named after his father's godmother, Queen Anne.  (His 5xgreat-grandson is the present duke.)

Does any one know of any  similar occurrences?

Thanks.

Brooke

[dpth...@gmail.com]

It's not that uncommon on the continent, particularly among Catholic families, where children are often named for particular saints, and if the saints happen to be of the opposite gender, so be it.

It seems much less common in Britain. My favorite example is Edward Louisa Mann, of Linton Place, Kent, eldest brother of Sir Horace Mann, 1st Bt. (Horace Walpole's great correspondent). In his case, I've never read where the name "Louisa" came from.

[bx...@yahoo.com]

Thanks, Paul.

I know one of the present Earl of Eldon's names is "Marie," but it was just surprising to see a feminine name used as a first name.

Brooke

[S. S.]

I can think of a few examples. Note that the forenames I mention is often not the forename by which the peer is commonly known:

The name “de la Poer” is frequently used as a forename by the Marquesses of Waterford. This refers back to Lady Catherine, 1st Baroness de la Poer suo jure, who extraordinarily convinced the House of Lords she was entitled to an Irish barony by writ (the sole instance of this occurring). The barony’s name is erroneously feminized according to The Complete Peerage I think (a footnote regarding this is somewhere).

The 13th Earl of Chichester has “Osbert” as one of his forenames. Osbert I believe is Old English meaning “god” or “bright”.

The 14th Earl of Haddington has “Baldred” as one of his forenames. Baldred I believe too is Old English meaning “bold” or “red”.

The Earls of Morton frequently use “Sholto” as a forename. The name refers to Sholto Douglas, the mythological progenitor of Clan Douglas, from whom descend a great many number of peers.

The 13th Earl Waldegrave has “Sherbrooke” as one of his forenames (always thought seems close sounding to “Sherlock).

The 9th Earl of Mount Edgcumbe has “Valletort” has one of his forenames. Valletort is of Cornish origin I believe.

The 12th Earl of Darnley has the forename of “Ivo”. Ivo is of Germanic origin meaning “yew wood” or “archer”.

The 9th Earl of Courtown has the forename of “Burgoyne”. I think Burgoyne refers to someone from Burgundy in France.

The 9th Earl of Lisburne has the forename of “Malet”. I always thought it sounds much like “mallet”.

The 10th Earl of Antrim has the forename of “Randal”, which always reminds me of Jack Randall from Outlander.

The 7th Earl of Portarlington has the forename of “Yuil”. I believe this name is derived from “Yule” for those born around Christmas.

The 11th Earl of Mayo has the forename of “Diarmuidh”. The name is Old English for “free from envy”.

The 5th Earl of Cromartie has the forename of “Ruaridh”. This is a Scottish name from Germanic origin meaning “red king”.

The 5th Earl of Lytton has the forename of “Scawen”. This is of Cornish origin from Old German meaning “to look”.

The 4th Earl of Plymouth has the forenames of “Ivor” and “Other”. The former is from Norse or Welsh meaning “archer” or “yew wood”. Similar to that of Ivo as above.

The 3rd Earl of Gowrie has the forename of “Brer”. The name is Anglo-Saxon meaning “at the brere” or someone who lived near a briar patch.

The 17th Viscount of Arbuthnott has the forename of “Oxley’. The name means “ox meadow”.

The 17th Viscount Gormanston has the forename of “Jenico”. The name is from Latin meaning “servant”.

The 16th Viscount Valentia has the forename “Dighton”. The name is Old English meaning “farmstead surrounded by a ditch”.

The Viscounts of Massereene and Ferrard frequently use “Clotworthy” as a forename from one of their ancestors. The name probably refers to Clotworthy, near Wembworthy, Devonshire. Sir Hugh Clotworthy, the progenitor of the family, held the Manor of Rashleigh in Wembworthy.

The 12th Viscount Molesworth has “Bysse” and “Kelham” as is forenames. Bysse is Norman and comes from the Old English word “bis”, meaning “dingy” or “murky”. Kelham is derived from Old Norse for “at the ridges”.

The 11th Viscount Boyne has the forenames of “Stucley”. The name is from Old English “stocc”, meaning “tree trunk” and “leah” meaning “clearing”.

The 9th Viscount Gort has “Prendergast” as one of his forenames. This is from a Germanic word for “burnt out”, essentially referring to an area devoid of life due to fire.

The 7th Viscount Harding has the forename of “de Montarville”. The name probably refers to Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville in France.

The 17th Viscount Scarsdale has the forename of “Ghislain”. The name is from Germanic from “gisal” meaning “hostage” and from “lind” meaning “sweet”.

The 4th Viscount St Davids has “Rhodri” as a forename. The name is from Welsh meaning “wheel” or “circle’.

The 3rd Viscount Craigavon has the forename of “Janric”.

The 3rd Viscount Malvern has the forename of “Ashley”, which can be confused for a woman’s name sometimes.

The 3rd Viscount Rochdale has the forename of “Durival”. I have something in my mind relating this head to Hispania though can’t quite remember.

The 23rd Lord Hastings has the forename of “Delaval”. The name is from French meaning “valley”.

The 15th Lord Reay has the forename of “Aeneas”, which of course refers to the famed hero from Virgil’s epic The Aeneid (which also happens to be my favorite piece of classical poetry after learning classical Latin for a few years).

The 10th Lord Dynevor has the forename of “Uryan”. The name is from Hebrew meaning “my light”.

 

There are plenty of other examples so I suggest nomen hunting for fun in the world of the peerage.

S.S.

[Windemere]

Thanks for all of the previous information.

In regards to the first name "Other", which is borne by the Earl of Plymouth, and many of his predecessors, I believe that they are descended from the Norman warrior Walter FitzOtho, who accompanied William the Conqueror to England. At some point in the Middle Ages, in some genealogical record,  the name 'Otho' was misprinted or mistranslated as 'Other', and this variation of the name was perpetuated in the generations that came after.

[dpth...@gmail.com]

If it's a matter of unusual names (and not just of men with female names and vice versa), then othing beats the names given to the children of Rev. Ralph William Lyonel Talmash, later Tollemache (19 Oct 1826-5 Oct 1895), of the Earls of Dysart. His children were as below, and they seemed to get more unusual with each child:

1.Sir Lyonel Felix Carteret Eugene TOLLEMACHE, suc 1935 as 4th Bt. (15 Jan 1854-4 Mar 1952)

2.Florence Caroline Artemisia Hume (19 Feb 1855-24 May 1935); m.1st 4 Aug 1884 William Pink Lonsdale (d.11 Sep 1899); m.2nd 1 Nov 1900 Thomas Hale (d.8 Feb 1907)

3.Evelyne Clementina Wentworth Cornelia Maude (7 Jun 1856-    )

4.Granville Gray Marmont Manners Plantagenet (8 Jun 1858-20 Apr 1891)

5.Marchmont Murray Grasett Reginald Stanhope Plantagenet (24 Dec 1860-10 Apr 1898)

6.Dora Viola, d.4 Jul 1874

7.Mabel Ethel Helmingham Huntingtower Beatrice Blazonberrie Evangeline Vise de Lou de Orellana Plantagenet Saxon Toedmag (11 Mar 1872-5 Jan 1955); m.1st 1 Sep 1896 Rev. William Bryant (d.4 Mar 1927); m.2nd 1950 Morgan Bletsoe (d.5 Jan 1955)

8.Lyonesse Mathilda Dora Ida Agnes Ernestine Curson Paulet Wilbraham Joyce Eugénie Bently Saxonia Dysart Plantagenet (9 Nov 1874-26 Aug 1944); m.4 May 1897 Francis William Astley Cooper (16 Nov 1859-1945), of the Baronets

9.Lyulph Ydwallo Odin Nestor Egbert Lyonel Toedmag Hugh Erchenwyne Saxon Esa Cromwell Orma Nevill Dysart Plantagenet (21 Aug 1876-1961); m.1st 15 Jul 1897 Winifred Frances Anderson (d.1955); m.2nd 1957 Mrs Kathleen Gordon, née Hinge

10.Lyona Decima Veronica Esyth Undine Cyssa Hylda Rowena Viola Adele Thyra Ursula Ysabel Blanche Lelias Dysart Plantagenet (19 Apr 1878-17 Nov 1962); m.21 Jan 1909 Charles Cecil Stone (d.1951)

11.Leo Quintus de Orellana (19 Nov 1879-1 Nov 1914); m.10 Sep 1906 Jessie Winifred Bryant (d.12 Jan 1967)

12.Lyonella Fredegunda Cuthberga Ethelswytha Ideth Ysabel Grace Monica de Orellana Plantagenet (14 Jan 1882-3 Oct 1952); m.17 May 1906 Frederick Pitcairn Nunneley (d.17 Dec 1922)

13.Leone Sextus Denys Oswolf Fraudati Filius-Tollemache de Orellana Plantagenet (10 Jun 1884-d.on active service 20 Feb 1917); m.23 Apr 1914 Kathleen Mary Mills (d.4 Mar 1915)

14.Lyonetta Edith Regina Valentine Myra Polwarth Avelina Philippa Violantha de Orellana Plantagenet (14 Feb 1887-7 Jan 1951); m.25 Feb 1909 Adolph Paul Oppé (d.29 Mar 1957)

15.Lyonulph Cospatrick Bruce Berkeley Jermyn Tullibardine Petersham de Orellana Dysart Plantagenet (11 Jan 1892-30 No 1960); m.22 Sep 1914 Lilian May Parse (d.17 Mar 1969)

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 3:42:35 PM UTC-6 bx...@yahoo.com wrote:

[bx...@yahoo.com]

To be honest, I was looking for something more along the lines of names like my original post (i.e., female names being used for male members of peerage families), so I apologize for the confusion.  However, I really enjoyed reading both S.S.'s and Paul's replies

 I had noticed some very "different" names among some of the families, and it was fascinating to read what these names mean or where they come from.  Thank you, S.S., for your hard work.

Paul, thanks for your very interesting post.  Looks like Rev. Ralph definitely put a lot of effort into naming his children.  Although part of me wonders where he got all of those names, another part of me is curious as to why poor (or lucky) Dora ended up with only two.

Brooke

[S. S.]

Brooke, 

Dora's full name is actually Dora Viola Gertrude Irenez de Orellana Dysart Plantagenet. I believe her name as above was an omission. So lucky (or unlucky) Dora indeed!

Also, to answer your question as to how the Rev. Ralph came up with some of the unusual, if you notice carefully many of the names are either surnames of previous or existing aristocratic families or names of titles held by peers. 

For example:

Wentworth = the surname and title borne by the Barons Wentworth (later Earls of Cleveland and Strafford; also the Earls FitzWilliam bore Wentworth as part of their compound surnam)

Granville = perhaps related to the Grenvilles, relations to the Dukes of Buckingham & Chandos and Earls Temple of Stowe?

Grey = probably refers to the House of Grey, whose members include the Earls of Stamford, Dukes of Suffolk, Earl of Tankerville, Earl Grey and of course the famous Lady Jane Grey among others.

Manners = the surname of the Earls later Dukes of Rutland.

Marchmont = title of the Scottish Earls of Marchmont.

Plantagenet = the famous House of Plantagenet of course

Stanhope: = surname and title of the Earls Stanhope.

Dysart = title of the Scottish Earls of Dysart

Murray = perhaps referring to the surname borne by the Dukes of Atholl.

Huntingtower = the courtesy title (Lord Huntingtower) borne by the Earls of Dysart.

Curson = probably Curzon referring to the surname and title borne by the Barons later Marquess Curzon, or perhaps that of another Curzon family bearing the title of Viscount Curzon.

Paulet = the surname of the Marquesses of Winchester and the Barons Orde-Powlett (the latter name being the old spelling of Paulet).

Nevill = probably after the House of Neville, among whose descendants the Marquesses of Abergavenny are most famous.

Polwarth = I forget but I think there is a title or surname of this name related to Scotland?

Berkeley = probably refers to the famed Earls and Barons Berkeley.

Bruce = probably refers to the family of Bruce from whom descend the Marquesses of Ailesbury and the Earls of Cardigan?

Jermyn = the surname of the wife of the 1st Marquess of Bristol, who was also created Earl Jermyn at the same time as the marquessate in 1826.

Tullibardine = courtesy title (Marquess of Tullibardine) borne by the Dukes of Atholl.

Some names are Anglo-Saxon or Old English in origin:

Helmingham, Ydwallo, Nestor, Egbert, Toedmag, Cuthberga etc

The other names are numerical in nature:

Lyona Decima... = decima for ten in Latin as she was the 10th child.

Leone Sextus... = sextus for six in Latin as he was the sixth son.

Rather surprising Rev. Ralph could even come up with so many obscure names or the fact he went to such lengths to find such unique names. 

S.S.

[bx...@yahoo.com]

Thank you, S.S., for the additional information.

I guess the good Rev. Ralph deserves credit for his ingenuity.  No John or Mary, no William or Jane.  And here we thought it was only celebrities who could come up with bizarre names for their offspring.

Brooke

[Jesse Honey]

A couple more unusual forenames I didn't see mentioned in the lists above: Ughtred, common in all branches of the landed Shuttleworth family, from Ughtred, Earl of Northumberland; and Ulick, common in many of the Irish Burke/Bourke families, apparently an Anglicised form of the Irish Uilleac. 

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[malcolm davies]

Brooke,

             This is not an answer to your post,but it is apparent that you have not read Brian  Masters book about the Dukes,where this is mentioned, which is now out of print, but available used on Abebooks.

  The details are as follows:

The Dukes : Origins, Ennoblement and History of 26 Families 2nd edition  Brian Masters Pimlico 2001

  I thoroughly recommend reading it.

The Channon Diaries in 3 volumes are also recommended.

[bx...@yahoo.com]

Thank you, malcolm, I will look into getting it.

Brooke