Change in royal birth certificate

[Troy]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9208453/Meghan-Markle-says-taking-names-Archies-birth-certificate-dictated-Buckingham-Palace.html

Regardless of whether the Sussexes or the Palace requested the change,  is it normal in the UK to have just a parent's title on a Birth Certificate? 

i.e. could the (fictional) Duchess of London put her name down as 'Her Grace the Duchess of London' on her child's birth certificate? I'm fairly certain a commoner couldn't put her name down just as Mrs Jones. Surely a Birth Certificate should avoid ambiguity by specifying which Duchess of Sussex/London or Mrs Jones, lest in the future it should get confused with others who have held that title? 

[John Horton]

Daily Mail writes:

“It was previously thought to be a nod to Princess Diana with her preferred name, 'Her Royal Highness the Princess of Wales'.”

One despairs over the feeble grasp that newspapers have of titles. 

---

From: peerag...@googlegroups.com <peerag...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Troy <reeve...@gmail.com>
Sent: 01 February 2021 11:56 AM
To: Peerage News <peerag...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Change in royal birth certificate

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9208453/Meghan-Markle-says-taking-names-Archies-birth-certificate-dictated-Buckingham-Palace.html

Regardless of whether the Sussexes or the Palace requested the change,  is it normal in the UK to have just a parent's title on a Birth Certificate? 

i.e. could the (fictional) Duchess of London put her name down as 'Her Grace the Duchess of London' on her child's birth certificate? I'm fairly certain a commoner couldn't put her name down just as Mrs Jones. Surely a Birth Certificate should avoid ambiguity by specifying which Duchess of Sussex/London or Mrs Jones, lest in the future it should get confused with others who have held that title? 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Peerage News" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to peerage-news...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/peerage-news/3e7620d4-db51-4b4d-b9db-9f19c1b2d55cn%40googlegroups.com.

This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
message in error, please contact the sender and delete the email and
attachment. 

Any views or opinions expressed by the author of this email do not
necessarily reflect the views of the University of Nottingham. Email
communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored 
where permitted by law.

[www.lordmountbattenofburma.com]

Looking at the Cambridge children's birth certificates.... the mother is referred to as "Catherine Elizabeth, Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Cambridge" on ALL three of their children....






so.... on that basis - then this clearly proves that TRH The Duke & Duchess of Sussex were doing the same as The Cambridges.   

[www.lordmountbattenofburma.com]

Prince William's birth certificate - his mother is indeed referred to as "Her Royal Highness The Princess of Wales"

[www.lordmountbattenofburma.com]

Princess Beatrice's birth certificate also follows that line - mother referred to as "Her Royal Highness The Duchess of York"

[Peter FitzGerald]

I find both versions quite strange. The most obvious option would be "Her Royal Highness [First Names] Duchess of [Title]", like the fathers (though obviously without "Princess", as that could only precede their husbands' names).

I assume a non-royal duchess would be named as either "[First Names] Duchess of [Title]" or "Her Grace [First Names] Duchess of [Title]", but I have no evidence to back that up.

[www.lordmountbattenofburma.com]

Personally I have an issue with both HRH The Duchess of Cambridge and HRH The Duchess of Sussex being referred to in their occupation as "Princess of the United Kingdom" - as they are only Princesses by marriage and not Princess of the United Kingdom in their own right... but Im sure others will have their own thoughts, its just my personal thoughts.  

I note that Prince Harry is referred to on Archie's birth certificate as "His Royal Highness Henry Charles Albert David Duke of Sussex" - not "Prince Henry Charles Albert David, Duke of Sussex"

From what I have seen, the whole matter of what is written is a big of a "dog's dinner" - so many inconsistencies/errors etc.. and to be honest, I'm sure that the Registrar has written what they have been told to? or you would think if they had written it themselves, on such matters - you would check?  knowing how much of an interest people have in these matters - after all no parent wants to see a mistake, regardless of your rank, high or low. 

In response to the "Duke of London" fictional question, from what I have seen there has been a mix of name/title/surname etc etc and no set pattern.  I know what I would write, but then I am a Royal nerd and like things to be done correctly.  If it were left to the members of the jokers who write in the Daily Mail, Im sure that there would be a hell of a lot more errors and mash-ups of names, titles, surnames and rank etc (said with a great deal of sarcasm!) 

On Monday, February 1, 2021 at 1:32:04 PM UTC john....@nottingham.ac.uk wrote:

[gorgo...@gmail.com]

At any given moment there is only one THE duchess of London. It's enough to identify her. Mother's maiden surname confirms this identification. Obiviously this system woks only with peeresses and doesn't work with any Mrs. Jones.

[John Horton]

I recall that that column used to be headed – decades ago – something like “Rank, profession or occupation” – princess is a rank. 

The wife of a prince is a princess. That a princess by marriage is not known socially as e.g. Princess Mary but instead e.g. Princess Thomas (when her husband is not in enjoyment of a title in the peerage) does not affect this.

Here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_dowager#Distinction_from_queen_mother

you can see Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother referred to as Princess Elizabeth, but this should best be read with “Princess” being in apposition to “Elizabeth” (rather than as the title “Princess Elizabeth”), the Queen Mother’s generic rank being that of princess. 

 

It is indeed something of a dog’s dinner. Whereas the reference to the Duke of Sussex makes some sense, the reference to the Duchess does not. Having the style “Her Royal Highness” in the middle is bizarre. 

 

---

From: peerag...@googlegroups.com <peerag...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of www.lordmountbattenofburma.com <hamish...@gmail.com>
Sent: 01 February 2021 6:09 PM
To: Peerage News <peerag...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Change in royal birth certificate

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/peerage-news/8d3be4d0-bf7a-4754-9ef7-33c9770ee076n%40googlegroups.com.

[Henry W]

Thank you John for that nugget about certificates I had not noticed before!

I went direct to my files of my own family's certificates.  Historically it was "Rank or Profession" on Birth / Marriage / Certificates, and is now "Occupation".  As best I can work out the change was between 1958 and 1962.