Earl of Frodsham

[Eleanor Doughty]

Hello all,

I wondered if you might be able to help with something please. I'm writing an article about country house visitors' books, and am researching their origins. There is relatively little information about these online, but what there is references 'the 4th Earl of Frodsham'. I've been writing about aristocrats for a decade and have never come across this title before, and Google doesn't reveal anything either, instead pointing to a Liverpool footballer. I wondered whether anyone knew anything about an Earl of Frodsham, and specifically the fourth one please? The only clues I have about this mystery peer is that – if he existed – he was alive in 1753, and was apparently a 'playboy' (hence inventing the visitors' book, to keep track of his women). 

Any help would be much appreciated please! I'm fully prepared to be told that I've overlooked someone or something very obvious, or indeed that this Lord Frodsham is some kind of joke that I've inadvertently missed.

Yours gratefully,

Eleanor

[Harry Merritt]

No such listing in the standard reference book "Burke's Dormant and Extinct Peerages," published 1883, or in Francis L. Leeson's "A Directory of British Peerages," published 1985.

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[dpth...@gmail.com]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frodsham_Castle:

"In the early 17th century Sir Thomas Savage of Clifton purchased from the Crown the Manor, the Lordship and the Castle of Frodsham ; these had previously belonged to the Frodsham family. Sir Thomas died in 1635 to be succeeded by his son, John, who four years later inherited the title of Earl Rivers.[4] During the Civil War, John Savage was living in the nearby mansion of Rocksavage. He was a Royalist and his house was damaged by Parliamentary forces. He died in Frodsham Castle in 1654 but while his corpse was still in the castle awaiting burial, the building was destroyed in a fire.[2]"

So perhaps you are looking for the Savage Earls Rivers:

Sir Thomas SAVAGE, 2nd Bt., cr 1626 Viscount Savage (ca 1586-20 Nov 1635); m.14 May 1602 Lady Elizabeth Darcy, 1641 [Life] Countess Rivers (1581-9 Mar 1651), dau of 1st Earl Rivers (d.1640); this 1st Earl Rivers had obtained a reversion in 1613 of his title of Baron Darcy of Chiche in favor of his son-in-law and heirs male of his body, and his new titles of Earl Rivers [cr 1626] and Viscount Colchester [cr 1621] also had remainders to his son-in-law and heirs male of his body

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1.John, 2nd Viscount Savage 1635, 1640 2nd Earl Rivers, Viscount Colchester and Baron Darcy of Chiche (ca 1603-10 Oct 1654); m.1st by 1626 Hon. Catherine Parker; m.2nd by 6 Mar 1647 Mary Ogle (d.1657/8)

[by 1st m.]:

1.1.Thomas, 3rd Earl Rivers, etc. (ca 1628-14 Sep 1694); m.1st 1647 Elizabeth Scroope, nat. dau of Emanuel Scrope, Earl of Sunderland; m.2nd 1684 Lady Arabella Bertie (d.28 Feb 1717)

1.1.1.Thomas, Viscount Colchester (ca 1650-ca 1680); m.by 17 Feb 1669 Lady Charlotte Maria Stanley

1.1.1.1.Charlotte

1.1.2.Richard, 4th Earl Rivers (ca 1654-18 Aug 1712); m.1st 21 Aug 1679 Penelope Downes; m.2nd 1688 Mrs Margaret Tryon, née Stydolph (d.after 1692), dau of Sir Richard Stydolph, Bt.

1.1.2.1.[ex 1] Elizabeth, d.19 Mar 1714; m.Jun 1706 James Barry, 4th Earl of Barrymore (1667-5 Jan 1748)

1.1.2.2.[by Elizabeth Colleton, dau of Sir Peter Colleton, 2nd Bt.] Bessy, d.23 Jun 1746; m.1st Aug 1714 Frederick Nassau, 3rd Earl of Rochford (1683-14 Jun 1738); m.2nd Rev. Philip Carter

1.1.2.3.[by Anne, Css of Macclesfield, née Mason] Anne (Jul 1695-d.an infant)

1.1.2.4.[by Anne, Css of Macclesfield, née Mason] Richard (16 Jan 1697-    ); apparently there is no proof that he survived infancy; the poet Richard Savage claimed to be this person, but scholars have rejected that claim

1.1.3.Elizabeth

1.1.4.Annabella, bur 3 Feb 1703; m.Sir Erasmus Norwich, 3rd Bt. (24 Jul 1668-Aug 1720)

1.2.John

1.3.Richard; m.Alice Trafford

1.3.1.John, 5th Earl Rivers (29 Apr 1665-d.shortly before 9 May 1737)

1.4.Elizabeth, bur 19 Jul 1665; m.William Petre, 4th Lord Petre (d.5 Jan 1684)

1.5.Jane, d.6 Jun 1676; m.1st 17 Jan 1653 George Brydges, 6th Lord Chandos (9 Aug 1620-Feb 1655); m.2nd 21 Oct 1655 Sir William Sedley, 4th Bt. (d.1656); m.3rd 1657 George Pitt, of Strathfieldsaye; her grandson from 3rd m. was cr Baron Rivers

1.6.Catherine; m.23 Feb 1657 Sir Charles Sedley, 5th Bt. (bap 30 Mar 1639-20 Aug 1701)

1.7.Mary; m.Henry Killegrew

1.8.Frances, d.young

[by 2nd m.]:

1.9.Peter

2.Thomas; m.Elizabeth Whitmore, widow of Sir Edward Somerset

2.1.D’Arcy; m.NN

2.1.1.Bridget; m.Sir Thomas Mostyn, 2nd Bt.

2.2.Elizabeth; m. Marmaduke Langdale, 2nd Lord Langdale (14 Jan 1628-25 Feb 1703)

3.Francis

4.William

5.James

6.Richard

7.Charles; m.NN

7.1.Mary; m. Jeremy Thoresby

8.Jane, d.1631; m.1622 John Paulet, 5th Marquess of Winchester (ca 1598-5 Mar 1675)

9.Dorothy, d.6 Dec 1691; m.10 Apr 1637 Charles Howard, 2nd Earl of Berkshire (d.Apr 1679)

10.Elizabeth; m.Sir John Thimbleby

11.Anne, d.16 Jun 1696; m.Robert Brudenell, 2nd Earl of Cardigan (5 Mar 1607-16 Jul 1703)

12.Catherine, a nun

13.Henrietta Maria; m.Ralph Sheldon

[G. Willis]

Hello Eleanor, I'm afraid I must concur with Harry that such a title doesn't seem to exist or have existed; I had a look into Frodsham and its links with the peerage, and wondered if this "4th Earl of Frodsham" arose from some misunderstanding by someone somewhere, but nothing too promising resulted. Frodsham Castle, at Frodsham, was built by the Earl of Chester, but 700 years before the alleged peer involved with visitor's books (incidentally, the source for this- as you probably already identified- appears to be a 2015 article written by Sophia Money-Coutts for Tatler; would it be worth contacting her to see if she had a source for this 4th Earl? Perhaps it was even some kind of tongue-in-cheek reference based on the footballer?). The 4th Earl of Chester, at any rate, was alive from 1099 to 1153, so again doesn't seem to be your man! The manor, lordship and castle were later owned by the family of Earl Rivers, but again the 4th Earl Rivers died in 1712. Rather perplexing! Do let us know if the mystery is solved, it's quite intriguing. Sorry the above was probably not of much help!

[dpth...@gmail.com]

More from the Frodsham article:

"The ruins were bought by John Daniels of Daresbury and then in about 1750 by Daniel Ashley, a local solicitor. His son, Robert Wainwright Ashley, who was also a lawyer, demolished the ruins and built a house, Park Place.[2] Part of the foundations of the castle formed the cellars of this house.[3]"

So the Earls Rivers, extinct ca 1737, were no longer there in 1753.

[Eleanor Doughty]

Thank you all! I too wondered about the Chesters, but as you say, it's far too early. Can only presume that Sophia (who I know through work) made it up, but if so, I've obviously missed the joke! A playboy peer starting up a visitors' book tradition to manage his women does seem like something that might have happened in the 18th century – if only it had happened to someone real. 

Thank you Harry for checking the Leeson book, which for some reason I don't have (and now will buy!) 

Honestly, I'm delighted that you all agree as I haven't been able to find him anywhere, and thought I was going mad! 

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Eleanor Doughty

Feature writer

07854 073818

@brushingboots

eleanordoughty.com