Use of a Windlass vs Anchor Ball for anchor retrieval

[Dave Cole]

How practical is using an anchor ball for anchor retrieval vs using a windlass on a sailboat?

There are quite a few Youtube videos showing the use of anchor balls to pull up anchors.  A few with sailboats.  

How does the water depth, bottom type, type of anchor, and type of boat (power vs sailboat)  affect the use of an anchor ball?

I've considered installing an electric windlass on my boat, but I have really buried some anchors in the past and I can see myself breaking things/parts trying to pull up a stuck anchor by merely pushing a button.  

Dave

10M #26

[Guy Johnson]

Windlass is designed to lift the anchor and rhode, it is not designed to pull the boat to the anchor or to break out the anchor. 

Motor up to the anchor, retrieve the anchor line to a scope as close to 1:1 as you can get, secure the anchor line and wait for wave action etc. to free the anchor. Then haul on board with the windlass. 

Guy

Puffin 

10M #6

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Subject: [pearson ] Use of a Windlass vs Anchor Ball for anchor retrieval

 

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[Dave Cole]

The videos I have seen "sell" the anchor ball as a way to:

1. Break the anchor free

2. Get the anchor to the surface without lifting.

So I'm wondering if using an anchor ball is a worthwhile thing for a sailboat anchoring in typically less than 50 ft of water, and in my case, with a Danforth anchor.

If an anchor ball could do both of those things on my boat, I think I would find the space to store one, and it is a hecka lot cheaper than a windlass.  Plus no installation.

Dave

10M #26

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[Last Resort]

Sorry, but my experience with anchor balls is that they're just mostly for spotting and for use in a clutch when anchor is stuck or such. I've NEVER thought of using it for pulling the anchor up if that's what you're suggesting. And if you mean to use the ball to free the anchor, which could work, Guy J is right....you still need to break the anchor free with the boat and rode, NOT the windlass!!!  I use a Rocna type anchor, and do so in a forward motion WITH the wind, so when it grabs, it really grabs and to free it I always have to get to 1:1 on the chain, secure it, then give the boat a jolt forward which usually pulls it out the 1st time :)  Then I sit on the deck and pull it all in and up by hand. As for the ball, I won't use one after seeing what happened to others at anchor when the boat finds it's way circled around the anchor during the night and the ball gets hooked on the keel or such, and then pulls it out unwittingly or at the very least you have to dive in the morning to free it.  

Actually, I'd love to put a windlass on my 31-2, but doesn't seem doable...I've posted on this and never seen one done yet. 

[Guy Johnson]

using a ball for anchor retrieval is different than marking the anchor location with a float. 

for retrieval a large ting is put around the rhode with a ball attached to it, then driving the boat in a circle somehow forces the ball down the rhode until the anchor floats to the surface. 

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Subject: Re: [pearson ] Use of a Windlass vs Anchor Ball for anchor retrieval

 

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[Last Resort]

wasn't aware there was more than 1 type of "red" ball used....they're the only ones I've seen, but guess the one's you're discussing must be alot bigger to raise 25lb + anchor :) 

[Andrew Milkovits]

The anchor ball appears to be a different animal than an anchor float trip-line (where you have a float tied to a line that goes to the frontside of an anchor).  I have also seen a boat stuck on the shore after they drifted over their anchor float during the night and dragged their anchor.  My boat came with one but I never used it and finally took it out of the jammed up lazarette last season.  

I read a couple articles and the anchor ball sounds interesting.  Because it's only deployed when you are about to raise anchor you don't run the risk of drifting over it and lifting the anchor. 

I've always been able to raise my anchor by doing the same : driving forward to 1:1, cleating off and slowing rocking forward some more.  Works well, but sometimes takes a little bit more throttle than you'd expect. 

Andrew

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[Guy Johnson]

link to youtube video showing raising anchor with ball

https://www.google.com/search?q=using+ball+to+raise+anchor&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS746US746&oq=using+ball+to+raise+anchor&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i22i29i30.11339j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#kpvalbx=_KrsZYIn7FITu_QbbmZToDg27

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Subject: Re: [pearson ] Use of a Windlass vs Anchor Ball for anchor retrieval

 

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[Dave Cole]

It's not an anchor marking buoy, but a method of lifting the anchor to the surface without doing any lifting.

I don't see why this wouldn't work with a sailboat under power?

I think I could do this single handed with a sailboat.  

This could solve the issue of how do you pull the anchor at the bow, while controlling the boat position via the helm, while single handed! 

Some of the setups use a one way clutch that clips or stays on the anchor rope.

Others just use a simple stainless steel ring that the anchor line slides through.

I've never seen this done before on the water.

One of the videos mentions using a buoy like this to lift crab pots off the bottom.

I should have posted a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrbYe1rHcV0

A bunch more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7v8uiDWFnE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHIUVuc_M4I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_uXuTBkeaA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhCwxg1gGAg&t=615s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5CWs8oHp8g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U55z103sy34

On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 2:58 PM Last Resort <lastre...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Dave Cole]

Here is a magazine article on it.

https://www.boatingmag.com/how-to/using-anchor-ball/

A complete anchor ball, ring or clutch setup is less than $100 on Amazon.  

[Andrew Milkovits]

Wow, those guys seem to be going pretty quick when they're using the system.  I am often in tighter anchorages and don't know that I'd have the room to use this technique (not that I need it).  

The videos made me think of the freak accident where the boater was killed when the anchor he was dragging slingshotted out of the water and struck him.  Not sure we'd be able to get to speeds where that would be a concern... 

https://www.lakeexpo.com/boating/boat_crashes/freak-boating-accident-anchor-slingshots-from-water-killing-captain/article_67bf0df6-d815-11ea-a2c2-0b58fca7a1d0.html

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[Dave Cole]

I don't think the speed is required, according to the magazine article a fast idle is all that's needed.  So sailboat speed?  But if this works, and the anchor is just below the ball downwind.  I could put the trans in neutral, go to the bow and retrieve the line, ball and anchor as the boat drifts back towards the buoy.    Then just lift the ball and anchor off the surface to the boat.  I think I could do that for a lot of years still.   And without a windlass.  

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[Last Resort]

watched the video....this may work in the ocean or big lake anchoring, but in the North Channel where I've anchored amongst 40 other boats in one small bay, there's no way!  As for solo sailing, I do it 90 nights straight by myself, and never have an issue pulling up my 45' 5/8 chain and 25lb anchor, then heading out on my way. When it is tough with strong waves at me in a wind shift overnight, I just put the boat in gear, steering braked or autopilot engaged depending on the space available, get the anchor up enough to move to safe distance and then finish off securing it. Being solo isn't really hard once you adjust and get used to it :)  It's just being used to having someone at the helm that seems to make things appear really easy and being solo very hard :) 

[Dave Cole]

This wouldn't work in a tight space amongst a lot of other boats.   But I never run into that situation when anchoring.    

It's usually out in the open fishing, eating lunch, or resting behind an island.  

Pretty much all of my sailing is single handed.   I live two hours from my boat and most of my friends live even further away.

If this works, it will add another tool to the toolbag for short handed sailing.  

Dave

10M #26

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[Last Resort]

so to use this, you need lots of room....that said, what's the issue with sailing alone?  No big deal, and you won't have to find somewhere to store that huge ball :)  And as far as using it for sailing alone, I see it causing more issues alone than without it. Good Luck!

[Bill Robart]

Let me see if I understand this system. You use the ball to run up the anchor line while you run towards the anchor. Then the floatation of the ball loosens the anchor from the bottom. Then you pull in the portion of the rode from the boat to the ball onto the stern portion of the boat. Then, also at the stern you hoist the anchor and chain onto the boat. Then you remove the ring from the rode and stow the ball where? Then you haul the anchor and the rode that was used to the bow for storage.

Tell me what part of that process saves any effort or time opposed to running the boat forward till the anchor is under the bow and then allowing the weight of the boat to loosen the anchor and then hailing the rest of the anchor and rode onto the bow of the boat? The old fashioned way is faster (no ball needed) cheaper (again no ball needed) and keeps the mud, clay and weed on the anchor and rode at the bow where it's confined to a portion of the boat where fewer folk can track all over the boat.

Perhaps my analysis is wrong but I think the "ball" is simply more marine oriented "snake oil". More crudely stated, another useless piece of gadgetry to take up valuable money and space. To add some more insult to the equation the anchor used in the video is likely the easiest type of "anchor" to retrieve and likely the most useless to use to anchor a boat. It's normal use is to drag the bottom to snag some lost gear, often a lost "proper" anchor.

Bill

     

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[Dave Cole]

That is not how this is typically done from what I have seen in videos. 

This magazine article talks about it. 

https://www.boatingmag.com/how-to/using-anchor-ball/

I sent a bunch of video links for hours of anchor ball video enjoyment... ;-) 

One of the videos is of a guy who is doing Halibut fishing in Alaska.   He is anchored in 4-500 feet of water and has 600 ft of line out.

He doesn't have a windlass, so he uses the anchor ball to pull the anchor off the bottom to the surface.   

Seems like a great idea if you need to anchor in 4-500 ft of water!  

As far as additional gear, I don't think I need to buy anything significant to try this.  

I usually carry two good size bumpers which will float my anchor and chain.   I can make a 6" diameter anchor ring to try this out or just buy one for $10.

So low to zero cost to try.  And other than adding the ring, I may not need to carry anything additional onboard.    So no anchor ball storage issues?

I really don't need more gear either.  

When single handing, I don't want to be on bow for long trying to pull a stuck anchor when the waves are kicking up.

I've had to do that a few times, and it is a bit dangerous.  Lake Erie's wave period is so short that the waves almost hammer the boat.

Which means that the bow bounces a lot.   

So the procedure, as I see it, goes like this:

1.  Boat is anchored and laying downwind of the anchor.

2.  I attach the anchor ring to the anchor line and attach the buoy or bumper/s to the ring with a short lanyard.

3. I toss it overboard.  

4. Start the engine and steer to port about 45 degrees from the anchor.   The buoy slides down the anchor line as the boat moves forward and to port.

5. The buoy falls off to starboard as I motor forward.   

6.  The anchor is pulled and  arrives at the surface under the buoy.   The entire buoy/anchor assembly is pulled through the water behind the boat which apparently makes it obvious that the anchor is at the surface.

7.  I shift into neutral and set engine to idle, or leave it in gear with the autopilot engaged to maintain the bow into the wind.  (Depending on conditions?) 

8.  I move to the bow to pull in the anchor line and buoy which is already at the surface.  The anchor is secured and the line and chain go into the chain locker.  

9.  The boat will start to drift backwards somewhat if in neutral, making it even easier to pull in the line, anchor, and buoy.  ( In theory? ) 

The big advantage that I see in this is that I don't need to get the boat directly over the anchor to break it free by tying it off and allowing the waves to break the anchor out.

While singlehanding; I have found that it is near impossible to: 

1.  Maneuver the boat over the anchor while shortening the anchor line AND

2.  Also be at the bow to tie off the anchor so the waves break it free while holding the boat over the anchor.

That's possible with two somewhat skilled people onboard, but that isn't my situation.  

Even when I sail with a guest, I am usually "singlehanding" since they aren't skilled sailors.  

Dave

10M #26 

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[Jeff Griglack]

Dave, 

I agree, the cost to try it out is low.  Ideally, you would try out the ball, and then a windlass on a friend's boat, but I don't know how likely that would be.  Once you've done it a few times, please let us know how well it works for you.

Jeff

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[Dave Cole]

 

I'll try it and report back.  

Is it too early to plan for launch ??  ;-)

Dave

10M #26

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[Bill Robart]

Jeff,

What problems have you had when single handed anchoring that would tempt you to even try the "Ball" ?  Most of my anchoring was done using a Danforth H12 or H20 in mud or sand. I've sailed extensively along the entire New England coast (from age 30 to 70) and rarely had a problem retrieving the anchor. I would consider most of it the be done either singled handed or with nonparticipant crew.

I agree that the ball is good if you anchor in hundreds of feet of water 

 but not for 10 - 20 feet. I never had a windless on any of my boats and the effort to pull the anchor was never a problem except for the time the anchor snagged an abandoned 1.25” steel cable. Getting that to the surface was an ordeal.

Bill

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[Jeff Griglack]

Bill,

Dave is the one who started this thread, not me.

I have not really had many problems anchoring while single handing.  It can be a little hectic when hauling the anchor and then running back to the cockpit to get underway.  I don't see it being less so using a ball, but I am willing to have an open mind.

My old boat was a P30 with a 22 lb. Bruce with 20 feet of chain and 300 feet of Yale Brait.  It aways held well.  My new boat, a P365, has a 33 lb. Bruce primary and a CQR secondary, both with all chain rodes.  I haven't measured the chain, but it appears to be a couple hundred feet for the primary. There is a windlass mounted on deck.  I have not anchored with the new boat yet, but I'm looking forward to it.

I am thinking of replacing the CQR with the Bruce, and the Bruce with a Mantis.  There's time for that, though.

One thing I am going to look into is installing a wireless remote for the windlass.  That way I can motor forward while taking up the chain.  Otherwise, I would goose the throttle, put it in neutral, run forward and wind up the chain, run back to the helm, goose the throttle, repeat.  On the plus side, I'll get my laps in 36 feet at a time and it would allow me to wash off the chain.  On the minus side, there's still nobody at the helm between when the anchor breaks free and it's on deck.

Anyway, enough of my winter musings.  My curiosity on using a ball is mostly academic.

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[Last Resort]

totally agree with last few messages on not needed a ball unless in 100'+ of water or so.  As for anchor selection, I loved a Bruce till I found it's one fault...CLAY....which I anchor in many nights. Clay isn't a problem unless there's a wind shift, then it can actually carve out a ball of it and let go and now you only have the weight of the Bruce and clay to hold you. I went to a Manson(Rocna) and it's built to avoid that, as well as avoiding having only 1 claw of a Bruce dig in that can happen sometimes. FYI, the Manson vs Rocna is well documented, but you'll save alot more money on the Manson for basically the same thing :)  

[Dave Cole]

Bill, 

It's not Jeff's fault, I started this thread!  :-) 

I'm curious why you wouldn't want to try it if you don't have a windlass ??

If it is a safer way to go, why not?    Less time on the bow, no need to position the boat directly over the anchor, etc.

If nothing else, you can add it to your bag of tricks in case you do have difficulty getting the anchor up.  

I'm really surprised that you guys haven't had issues getting your anchor up from time to time.

Apparently I'm pretty good getting anchors stuck.    

However, the West End of Lake Erie does have some tenacious mud that I have never seen in Lake Huron, Michigan, or Superior.

IMO, running back and forth between the cockpit and bow is not a good idea if you want to stay safe on the boat.

Dave

10M #26  

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[Last Resort]

As said, I sail alone 90% of my time, and pulling the anchor, and launching it for that matter have been no real issue when moving from cockpit to bow and back.  BEFORE trying the ball, do as mentioned. When you know you're pulling anchor at 10am, shorten your rode/chain till the anchor's below you and secure it. Any wave action will then loosen it up and you'll find it much easier when the time comes to finish the pull.  Or as I already said, with the anchor secured the same way and no time to wait, give the boat a short burst forward and it will pull the end up and out and you should have no issues. I still think dealing with a ball now will just add more time and headaches to the process, as others have also stated.  Good Luck!!!

[Bill Robart]

Dave,

My main reason for not even trying is that the ball under my normal anchoring circumstances is the extra steps the ball system requires and secondarily the storage requirement.

With deep water I might have had an interest but with only 150’ of rode hand pulling is fine . Since I’ve been reduced to a Grady White 22 and the nearest deeper water being about 30 feet I doubt the ball will ever be tested by me. I would like to hear about any tests though.

Bill

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