Another P31-2 leak???

[Last Resort]

we're hauling out Saturday, and while packing up and emptying the bilge, we found water, and my bilge is 100% dry (that's why we store there).  The water was very brown, and 1st thought was another holding tank leak, but luckily, no.  The water has no smell and after soaking it up, about 3 dog bowls full, we cannot find any reason for the leak. I checked everything...thru hulls, water tanks, pulled the floor boards and with everything now dry, no sign of more water coming in.  We were just in the bilge as of Monday, and at anchor till today since then.  We did sail today, but minimal healing.  My main issue is where did the brown come from in the water, a deep brown.  My bilge was just cleaned 2019 after a diesel tank leak, so I can't imagine the bilge got that dirty that fast.  And if the water had somehow been hiding in the hull somewhere and came out today while sailing, again I don't see it as we've have some much worse sails this year.  There's been no real rain all summer here anyway.  The only other thing I can think of is that I have a hose connected from my hot water tank pressure release all the way to my fridge water pump.  Perhaps the water residue  turned the hose brown inside and it flushed it, but if so, I can't find a leak in the hose anywhere either.  So not really expected any real answers, but just thought I"d try and put the question out there...any ideas?

[George DuBose]

Maybe try drying your bilge completely while in the water and see if the water is coming up throught the keel bolt holes.

Pearson 36s used bronze "J" bolts to hold the lead to the keel stub, my P26 used iron keel bolts that would rust.

Brown water? Sounds like rust to me.

George/Skylark

On 9/2/22 5:35 AM, Last Resort wrote:

we're hauling out Saturday, and while packing up and emptying the bilge, we found water, and my bilge is 100% dry (that's why we store there).  The water was very brown, and 1st thought was another holding tank leak, but luckily, no.  The water has no smell and after soaking it up, about 3 dog bowls full, we cannot find any reason for the leak. I checked everything...thru hulls, water tanks, pulled the floor boards and with everything now dry, no sign of more water coming in.  We were just in the bilge as of Monday, and at anchor till today since then.  We did sail today, but minimal healing.  My main issue is where did the brown come from in the water, a deep brown.  My bilge was just cleaned 2019 after a diesel tank leak, so I can't imagine the bilge got that dirty that fast.  And if the water had somehow been hiding in the hull somewhere and came out today while sailing, again I don't see it as we've have some much worse sails this year.  There's been no real rain all summer here anyway.  The only other thing I can think of is that I have a hose connected from my hot water tank pressure release all the way to my fridge water pump.  Perhaps the water residue  turned the hose brown inside and it flushed it, but if so, I can't find a leak in the hose anywhere either.  So not really expected any real answers, but just thought I"d try and put the question out there...any ideas?

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-- 
George DuBose
Wiedstrasse 16
D-50859 Köln
Germany
Mobile: +49.160.481.1234
Skype: georgedubose or call +1.347.284.6443

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Password: SkylarkNY

S/V Skylark
Compagnieshaven
Enkhuizen, NL

[Last Resort]

That was my 1st thought too, but they don't seem to be leaking, although they still could be the source of the rust as this bilge was always full for about 5 years till I finally found and fixed that leak.  The rust stains have always been around 1 of the bolts.  But lets say that is the issue...what next?  I dread to think about it!

[Last Resort]

I'll see when I get it out tomorrow, but I've always had an issue with a gap between the keel and hull, but filling it and keeping it sealed has always seemed to work.  I've already tried tightening the nuts on the bolts, but nothing moves. Although with everything dry right now at anchor, none of them seem to leak, but we'll see once I get moving today

[Last Resort]

no more water today and everything is now dry again after motoring, no sailing,  to the lift for the day.  Checked the hot water tank, and no issues there it appears.  So I'll have to wait and see tomorrow how the keel is hanging while up in the lift and see if the gap is back or opened up again.  The part I hate is not knowing, and if it's not the keel, with haul out tomorrow its going to have to wait till next spring to see if or when it happens again, and then may have to deal with it all summer depending on the culprit :(

[Peter McGowan]

Heat exchanger / hot water tank maybe?

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[Last Resort]

thanks, but as mentioned nothing from that end of the boat.  As I'm sure most P31-2 now slope to the stern (mine always has since 2011), if the water was coming from the engine or hot water tank area, it would've filled up first, and the water hardly even got back to the engine compartment.  So it has to be from mid ship somewhere.

[Alptraveler]

Start the process of elimination in the spring. Shut down the seacocks to the shower sump,head intake and there is one more on that side???. If it stays dry,open 1 at a time and wait to see. There is a shower sump duckbill valve that is part of the shower sump,maybe it is leaking?? Brown,hmmm, are you in brackish water? Mast water from rain shouldn't be brown so you could rule that out. If just regular water and the location you mentioned could also be a sensor seep. I have a sensor under the floor board just outside the bath door. Otherwise, my vote is rust which could be coming from the hot water heater which heats when you run your engine at anchor(unless you use generator or solar) which supplies into your hot water system. Let us know...

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[Last Resort]

boat's on the hard now, and with hours, the keel was completely dry and no signs of any seeping water, so don't see it leaking from there.  First thing I checked was all the thru hulls, and not a drop in that area.  Hot water tank still a possibility, but can't find any leak in the hose I have attached, but will look more in the spring.  I'm still thinking that there must have been a leak somewhere that was collecting water for awhile, and then somehow finally let go into the bilge...sounds weird I know, but at this point, what else???  I'll update once summer comes, but I was just hoping maybe someone else had this happen and knew what it was :)  BTW, I do heat my water with solar...replaced the electric element with a 12 V element...started with a 200watt, but too much.   Friend then switched his to a 100 watt, and says it's perfect, but I'm switching mine to a 65 watt next year which should provide us with warm enough water :)

[Dave Cole]

Make sure your bilge pumps have a loop before the thru hull exit.  Otherwise when heeled, water can come back thru your bilge pumps.

Dave

10M #26

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[Last Resort]

now that's interesting!!!!  Since that's exactly where the water seem to originate.  And to be honest, I have no idea where that water exits :(   I've never used or needed it, it's just there in working order.  Up till now, that's why I have the hose from the heater that also works as a bilge pump when set up to the fridge water pump.  The bilge pump hose disappears into the stringers and I have no way of following it, but I guess if I put my mind to it, I'll figure it out where it exits in the spring.  The question though is why did it take so long for this to happen for the 1st time in 12 years???

[Alptraveler]

Ya know we get occasional water in the bilge that is normally dry as well. It drives me CRAZY. Iam not of the camp " it's a boat, all bilge take on water", "all boats leak". My O'Day didn't do this but the Pearson does. Tho the actual bilge is dry we do find that water lurks in thos spines with the holes that are located in the bilge area. They are a dickens to pump out and boat movement causes the water to migrate into the bilge. I do know we take on some water thru the mast when we have heavy rains, not a lot of water and not brown....not at the boot but via all the places where lines run, pulleys mounted,etc. 

I am still thinking the brownish water may be rust coming from the hot water tank. My slip mate had a mystery leak,like you. He was tearing his hair out. It was some pressure valve leak, or something like that, on his hot water tank. Like yours it was sporadic. Once he  replaced it the problem was gone.

Out of the water already? You guys are in the N.Channel, aren't you? Colors change of the leaves are already changing up north.

Let us know what you find.

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[Guy Johnson]

If the bilge pump turns on while the boat is heeled that can fill the loop with water and when the bilge pump shuts off you’re then siphoning water back into the boat as long as you’re healed over.

The best way I know how to prevent this is to make sure that the bilge pump through hull is above the heeled waterline.

Guy 

On Sep 5, 2022, at 2:03 PM, Last Resort <lastre...@gmail.com> wrote:

now that's interesting!!!!  Since that's exactly where the water seem to originate.  And to be honest, I have no idea where that water exits :(   I've never used or needed it, it's just there in working order.  Up till now, that's why I have the hose from the heater that also works as a bilge pump when set up to the fridge water pump.  The bilge pump hose disappears into the stringers and I have no way of following it, but I guess if I put my mind to it, I'll figure it out where it exits in the spring.  The question though is why did it take so long for this to happen for the 1st time in 12 years???

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[Andrew Milkovits]

Wait, there's such a thing as a dry bilge in a keel-stepped mast boat?!  

On our 1987 31-2 the bilge pump exits on the port side.  It taps into the deck drain and exits via the 1.5" thru hull that is well above the water line.  You can see it easily in the port side lazarette.  

For your "keel smile", what have you tried filling it with?  I've had luck with G-Flex epoxy and then 4200 over the top of it.

I'm curious about your setup for using the icebox water pump as a bilge pump? Not quite following how you have that setup.  Would also love to learn more about your solar hot water heater.  What brand hot water heater do you use?  We have a 100W panel, which is more solar than we have a need for.  I never thought to use the excess for hot water but love the idea.  

Andrew

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[Last Resort]

I have a dripless PSS shaft seal, and I get nothing from my mast unless it's a real long downpour, then it leaks a little from the ceiling area, but not into the bilge. For that leak,  I took an old knee pad, cut it out the shape of the mast and put it around the mast at the ceiling junction, which then puts any water back towards the mast and down.  So when there's no surprises like this one, I always have 100% dry bilge, so yes, you can have a dry bilge :)    The bilge pump you describe is the manual one, or on my boat it is.  I have a 12V Whale one that in midship and exits somewhere on the starboard side.  The hose I mention is tapped into the fridge thru hull supply.  When I needed it for a bilge pump, I would close the thru hull, and the fridge pump would then suck the water from my hose which had a 90° plastic fitting on the end, and it would suck ALL the water from the bilge.  I then expanded the hose after I once had a flood in the bilge while on the HARD!!!  YES, really.  For some reason I was heating the water with hydro then, and the pressure release valve let go and it all ended up in the bilge.  Replaced the valve, but since I had the hose from the fridge that I wasn't using any more after fixing all my leaks, I decided to extend that hose to the valve in case it happened again, and for a few years, I drained my water tank somewhat that way too, again using the fridge pump :)  But that would only get 1/2 of it.  I have a 6 gallon Raritan hot water tank, which I believe is original to 1990. 

As for solar, with only 100W panel, you may be hard pressed to heat the water.  But with only a 65W, it may work using the excess sun, but you'd have to turn it on and off (my controller allows me to turn the load on and off to the heater).  It's also the fact my controller has an auxiliary  "LOAD" output that allows me to charge the water heater, so my element gets it's power controlled directly from the panel, although I'm sure  there's a way to do it from the batteries directly as well...the element just needs 12V supply of some kind :)  Be aware it took some ingenuity to fit the new element as it wasn't a direct swap.  I had to use the original rubber seal with the new element for the one that I had bought, but no leaks once I pressed it down enough.  My friend's though was a direct swap. 

As for the Keel Smile (Googled it as I'd never heard that one till now, but love it), I just cleaned it out in 2012, filled in the big gap at the front with pieces of the keel covering that I had removed, then used Interlux 1 part filler to smooth the keel areas needing attention, and then used 4200 ALL the way around with a nice smoothed surface, and until I hit a rock last summer at 5kts, there was never an issue.  This year I was in a hurry, so I had a tube of 5200 that I just used to fill and cover the smile that had appeared only a little after hitting the rock.  It was still fully intact when I hauled last week.  I'll probably grind/clean it out next spring and do a better job.  I like the idea of G-Flex. 

[Jeff Griglack]

Good question.  My bilge has been pretty dry this summer, but we haven't had that much rain this summer.  We got a _lot_ of rain yesterday and today, and we'll see how much water is in the bilge the next time I get down there.

------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeff Griglack             "Jabberwocky" P-365 #269

------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent"
|                   - Walt Kelly
| 'Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
| world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood –
| "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant."
| Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.'
|               —James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd
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[Last Resort]

and yes, we boat in the N. Channel...early June till Labour day straight, no docks, except for provisioning and fuel/pump outs,  and then  just lots of sailing and anchoring 24/7 together with my wife and dog and come Labour Day, time to go home :) 

[Dave Cole]

The bilge pump thru hull/s should be above the water line so if your boat is out of the water, just look around the hull for them above the water line.

On my 10M, I have two, I believe one was original and one was added for a second pump before I bought the boat.  They are both next to each other on the starboard side just in front of the shrouds.

If my boat is heeled I am certain they are underwater. But they have loops that go above the deck since they are screwed to the interior of the closet wall and travel right to the top of the closet.   The thru hulls are also in the closet on the Starboard side.  The loops are very visible with a flashlight.   The thru hulls are plastic.   I have two stainless 3/4" thru hulls to replace them, and that job is on the todo list.  

My bilge stays wet.   I think most of the water comes down the mast.  

It's been like that since I have had it.   I wash it out about once a year.

Unless you have a dripless shaft seal, I think you are committed to a wet bilge.  

Dave

10M #26

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[Alptraveler]

Emergency bilge pump is port.side of cockpit, pick-up foot is under the dust pan, drainage is at the stern.

12v bilge is located in the bilge just in front if the dust pant and I know the hose runs to the port side. I just don't know exactly where it exits but my initial thought was I remembering seeing a loop behind the storage cupboards near the water fill cap. Maybe upon closer looking I may see that it ties into the emergency bilge exit. Speaking of emergency bilge...when is the last time any of you have checked the rubber gusher gasket? I finally did this yr and saw that I may have dodged a bullet. I tore it apart,easy and cheap to do, and replaced the gusher with a repair kit. Also, emergency bilge handle is mounted in the propane locker. Apparently a no-no as the propane locker is specifically designated. I will be relocating that in case I get boarded by USCG.

My refrig....drainage runs thru the stringer from the starboard to the port and I hand pump the water into the sink with a Fynspray pump. How they got the hose thru the stringer is news to me, a really good fishing coil??? In that same stringer are my hot/cold hoses that supply the sink and shower in the head, they run from port to starboard,than forward. Hey, the stringer is only so large....rt.

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[Last Resort]

Excuse my ignorance, but just what and where is a rubber gusher gasket?

[Dave Cole]

I don't think you are supposed to tie the emergency bilge pump exit into the electric pump exit.  If that was done, that is probably incorrect.

You should have a thru hull for each pump.

Last Resort:   A common brand name for a manual bilge pump is/was the "Whale Gusher".   I think they were referring to the diaphragm and seals for that line of pumps.

Dave

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[Alptraveler]

No ignorance, at all! I actually got self educated as I read something about them in a magazine and realized I had the same gusher gaskets on my British sea kayak bilge pump, so....I ck'd. In your cockpit, port side should be an emergency bilge pump. The handle is hidden somewhere in your cockpit,or close. Upon closer inspection I realized the rubber gasket that acts as a bellows and manually siphons water from the bilge was completely cracked, dry rotted,hence, no siphoning if needed in an emergency. If you have one, I believe it is OEM, you can look on the back to see the size and model #. You can replace the entire unit as a whole or just buy the kit, sorta like doing a joker valve. I chose to do the kit cuz ours was a high capacity water removal. My slip mates just replaced the entire unit. Let me.see if I have any pics left. I took pics as I dismantled but got rid of them afterwards.

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[Last Resort]

Thanks Dave. C. and Alptr!  I do have one of those mounted in the cockpit wall ABOVE and over to the right of the propane tank. I got a kit in 2012 and rebuilt it all then, and haven't touched it since.  I don't know how many times my wife, who's always trying to remove excess from the boat, has asked what this little steel handle is for that I keep in hole in the cockpit locker door basket :)

[Alptraveler]

Ours is Guzzler 500, I believe. 

And, as stated, I believe my 12v bilge exits on the port,above the water line near the fresh water fill. When I tore the cabinet apart I remember seeing what looked like an ani-siphon loop in the hose,near the fill port. And yes, it is a diaphram,made of rubber. Treating it when I treat the window seals will keep it pliable. I was just stupid for the 1st 5 yrs not even know it was there and or to ck it. My friends took on some serious water passing thru Gray's Reef in upper Lake Michigan and had to use both bilge pumps til they could get all the way to Harbor Springs.  In addition to reading, their story kicked me in the butt to ck out my own emergency pump. It also triggered me to rig a battery operated sump pump alarm into the bilge area that would alarm me if ANY MOISTURE enters my bilge, especially when you are motoring for 11 hrs straight and rarely go down into the hull (off subject...did ya read about the guy who ran aground this wk when he went down to use the head and the autopilot disengaged?Poor guy, the boat was new to him by 3 wks).

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