Therminator Cleaning Question

[Dean Ehnes]

Well, I think I found the issue with my recent infected batches.  I boiled my Therminator and followed that with an overnight hot Oxyclean soak.  What drained out of the Therminator was absolutely disgusting.  It looked like coffee grounds.  I might do another boil/soak cycle to see if I can get anything else to come out.  I may even bake it in the oven for a bit as well, just to make sure.  Thanks to Jordan and others who suggested the plate chiller as the potential culprit at the last meeting.

Do you have any preferred pre-brew, post-brew, or intermittent Therminator cleaning protocols?  Thanks in advance.

Cheers,

Dean

[brandon whalen]

Forward/backward flush of pbw (or oxy) directly after knock out. Boil, forward sani flush on brew day. 

On May 24, 2021, at 12:37 PM, Dean Ehnes <dean....@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, I think I found the issue with my recent infected batches.  I boiled my Therminator and followed that with an overnight hot Oxyclean soak.  What drained out of the Therminator was absolutely disgusting.  It looked like coffee grounds.  I might do another boil/soak cycle to see if I can get anything else to come out.  I may even bake it in the oven for a bit as well, just to make sure.  Thanks to Jordan and others who suggested the plate chiller as the potential culprit at the last meeting.

Do you have any preferred pre-brew, post-brew, or intermittent Therminator cleaning protocols?  Thanks in advance.

Cheers,

Dean

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[Jordan Folks]

Oh man, gross! So glad you tracked it down at least. Now I’m wondering - what exactly were you doing as SOP? (Wondering if my blichmann plate chiller is also filled with gunk)

My process is to have a kettle full of strong PBW solution (typically room temp - often from prior uses) sitting around and IMMEDIATELY as soon as I’m done transferring out of the boil kettle I swap the hose from the boil kettle to the pbw kettle. I then turn the pump back on and push PBW until it runs clear. 

Sometimes I then pump about 5 gal PBW into the boil kettle right then, and then pump another few gallons of hot water through the pump/chiller system to rinse it all out. 

Other times, I let the PBW stay in the system while I clean other things. It might even hold the PBW inside for 24 hours before I get to it. Then I rinse out as mentioned above. 

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[Jeremy Bates]

I'm a little nervous to admit this as someone fairly new to the group, but I avoid the whole issue by doing "no chill". :)

Peter

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[Dean Ehnes]

In hindsight my SOP was definitely lacking.  I was just doing a back flush with starsan immediately after the beer was in the fermenters.  Sometimes I'd reverse the hoses a couple of times to help flush anything out.  

I've been diligent about using the hopblocker since I got the Therminator plugged solid a while back.  I baked it then and thought I had it cleaned out, but perhaps not.

I'll probably adopt something along the lines of what Brandon mentioned.  Seems bulletproof!

Cheers,

Dean

On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 1:07 PM Jordan Folks <jfol...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Dean Ehnes]

I've done no chill a couple of times with success but have been hesitant to use it as my default process.  It definitely saves water. 

Cheers,

Dean

[Ian Campbell]

Hi Dean,

We used to run a Therminator off our pilot system at Northern Brewer Minneapolis. At the end of our brew day we would prepare a solution of OneStep in the mash tun and hook up our hoses to the pump in such a way that the flow of cleanser would enter the outlet port on the chiller and exit the inlet - essentially backflushing it - while recirculating back into the mash tun. We’d run this loop for 20 minutes or so, which would also serve to soften up the gunk in the mash tun and false bottom, while also also straining out most chunks that would come out of the chiller. We would then shut down the loop, allow the OneStep solution to drain back into the mash tun, and then use the solution to scrub out the false bottom and mash tun. And because you’re using OneStep, after everything is drained and dried, you’ve been cleaned and sanitized! (This is the only application that I trust OneStep to do both of those things pretty well.)

A couple of additional things you could do, provided you do have a pump: during your boil, fill your hot liquor tank and/or reuse any remaining sparge liquor to run a sterilizing hot loop through your chiller for 10-15 minutes. You could also whirlpool through your chiller post-boil; this is how I use the counterflow chiller on my Grainfather, which allows me to both get a good whirlpool going and use the 180-200F wort to sterilize the chiller while doing so.

Hope this is helpful!

Ian

On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 12:37 PM Dean Ehnes <dean....@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Mark Beck]

I used to have a counterflow chiller, and I would circulate hot PBW through it for 20 min immediately after every batch. It helped, but wasn't perfect. After a couple of years I stuck a brush in there and got all kinds of gunk out of it. A plate chiller is probably better because the flow will be more turbulent and will clean better.

In any event, I have since gone back to an immersion chiller. I got a big one (50 ft of 1/2 inch copper) so it's pretty efficient. And I know exactly how clean it is.

Mark

[Russell Berger]

I believe that common professional brewer practice (plate and frame) is to run the same CIP/SIP as the kettles, but to store the HX "packed" (filled with Sanitizer and all air purged out). When they knock out,, the wort pushes the sanitizer out and they have a sightglass, tee, and valves at the outlet to redirect flow to the fermenter once all the sanitizer is through. This isn't as practical for us because we don't brew every day, but might be worth considering since starsan isn't as aggressive as peroxyacetic acid. I store my corny kegs full of starsan without issues. 

Ss Brewtech has been working on a plate and frame chiller for nearly three years (I saw them tease it at Portland hombrewcon), and if they ever release it it will be the first homebrew-scale chiller that can be disassembled for deep cleaning. My guess is that they haven't released it because when reassembling it is difficult to make all the gaskets line up and seat properly such that it doesn't leak. 

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[Russell Berger]

If your HX is copper,  DO NOT store it with sanitizer inside. I am referring to stainless only.

[Adam Shaney]

If anyone is truly interested in a small heat exchanger that can be disassembled AGC heat transfer has been making the Pro 013 for years I used to build them, It is not cheap though. I made one with “demo” plates for myself while I worked there and it’s nice to use, and I would note that using the 15 min hot PBW circulation and following with a 2 gallon or so hot water flush after each batch keeps it quite clean I have disassembled it twice and there was not much to clean out of it. I submerge and flood it with sanitizer during my brew day and flush the sanitizer out with boiling wort before I start the cooling. I have not had any infections that I could perceive using this process.

Adam

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