Speed camera data in navigation illegal in several counties

[Ik Beweeg]

I noticed that OSMand contain data on speed cameras.

As noted on openstreetmap, having this in navigation is illegal in several countries - when detected on inspection police may even take de device from you. Note that use is not the issue, having the data and option is already illegal.

This data therefore should be removed from the standard maps, and provided as separate download.

[Martin Trautmann]

On 19-09-25 21:13, Ik Beweeg wrote:> I noticed that OSMand contain data

In which countries is possession illegal?

In Germany the usage is illegal - but for the driver only. The co-driver
might use it.

Schönen Gruß
Martin

[Poutnik Fornntp]

But is not it rather funny, as the effective result is the same, sharing
the data ?

Dne 25. září 2019 22:51:39 Martin Trautmann <tr...@gmx.de> napsal:

[Danny Schneider]

Has anybody claimed the current laws and regulations make sense in every case?

In fact I am not even shure if you are allowed to touch the phone running OSMAND while the engine is on... because its a phone and usage of phones while "driving" is at least a infraction.

If you would sell the very same device but the software is changed, so its a navigation only device... touching while driving is fine!

Using logic here only causes headaches

[Martin Trautmann]

Am 26. September 2019 02:08:30 MESZ schrieb Poutnik Fornntp <poutni...@gmail.com>:
>But is not it rather funny, as the effective result is the same,
>sharing
>the data ?

No, obviously not.

The claim was, that the existence of the data itself is illegal. But that's wrong if the co-driver is not forbidden to use them.

So here it is illegal to tick the box to give warnings for the driver, but it is not illegal to have its info within the map data.


Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Gerät mit K-9 Mail gesendet.

[Kevin Kenny]

On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 3:09 AM Martin Trautmann <tr...@gmx.de> wrote:
> The claim was, that the existence of the data itself is illegal. But that's wrong if the co-driver is not forbidden to use them.
>
> So here it is illegal to tick the box to give warnings for the driver, but it is not illegal to have its info within the map data.

It's an intriguing idea, that it should be illegal to encourage
drivers to obey the law. (But nobody said that the law has to make
sense.)
--
73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin

[Florian Lohoff]

On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 11:56:35PM -0700, Danny Schneider wrote:
> Has anybody claimed the current laws and regulations make sense in every
> case?
> In fact I am not even shure if you are allowed to touch the phone running
> OSMAND while the engine is on... because its a phone and usage of phones
> while "driving" is at least a infraction.
> If you would sell the very same device but the software is changed, so its
> a navigation only device... touching while driving is fine!
> Using logic here only causes headaches

At least for Germany this has changed with the latest update - the
German Legalese from StVO §23:

(1a) 1 Wer ein Fahrzeug führt, darf ein elektronisches Gerät, das der Kommunikation,
Information oder Organisation dient oder zu dienen bestimmt ist, nur benutzen, wenn

1. hierfür das Gerät weder aufgenommen noch gehalten wird und
2. entweder
a) nur eine Sprachsteuerung und Vorlesefunktion genutzt wird oder
b) zur Bedienung und Nutzung des Gerätes nur eine kurze,
den Straßen-, Verkehrs-, Sicht- und Wetterverhältnissen
angepasste Blickzuwendung zum Gerät bei gleichzeitig
entsprechender Blickabwendung vom Verkehrsgeschehen
erfolgt oder erforderlich ist.

2 Geräte im Sinne des Satzes 1 sind auch Geräte der Unterhaltungselektronik oder
Geräte zur Ortsbestimmung, insbesondere Mobiltelefone oder Autotelefone,
Berührungsbildschirme, tragbare Flachrechner, Navigationsgeräte, Fernseher oder
Abspielgeräte mit Videofunktion oder Audiorekorder.

3 Handelt es sich bei dem Gerät im Sinne des Satzes 1, auch in Verbindung mit
Satz 2, um ein auf dem Kopf getragenes visuelles Ausgabegerät, insbesondere
eine Videobrille, darf dieses
nicht benutzt werden.

4 Verfügt das Gerät im Sinne des Satzes 1, auch in Verbindung mit Satz 2,
über eine Sichtfeldprojektion, darf diese für fahrzeugbezogene,
verkehrszeichenbezogene, fahrtbezogene oder fahrtbegleitende Informationen
benutzt werden. 5Absatz 1c und § 1b des Straßenverkehrsgesetzes
bleiben unberührt.


--
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
UTF-8 Test: The 🐈 ran after a 🐁, but the 🐁 ran away

[Ik Beweeg]

Actually, it obviously encourages people to disobey the law,exceeding speed limits without penalty, because it actively warns them of possible detection by camera's.

Op donderdag 26 september 2019 18:33:31 UTC+2 schreef Kevin Kenny:

[Ik Beweeg]

Refering to open street map:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dspeed_camera states:

A navigation software shall ask during the installation procedure, whether speed cameras shall be included or not. This shall not be changeable without new installation to make sure there is no conflict with the law in countries where the use of dynamic speed cam warning devices are disallowed.

Osmand has no such option, why not?

Op woensdag 25 september 2019 21:13:21 UTC+2 schreef Ik Beweeg:

[Greg Troxel]

Ik Beweeg <mithran...@gmail.com> writes:

> Refering to open street map:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dspeed_camera states:
> A navigation software shall ask during the installation procedure, whether
> speed cameras shall be included or not. This shall not be changeable
> without new installation to make sure there is no conflict with the law in
> countries where the use of dynamic speed cam warning devices are disallowed.
> Osmand has no such option, why not?

The notion that text in a tag wiki article is somehow an authoritative
standard with the force of law is.... very surprising.

[Martin Trautmann]

On 19-09-26 22:51, Ik Beweeg wrote:
> Actually, it obviously encourages people to disobey the law,exceeding
> speed limits without penalty, because it actively warns them of possible
> detection by camera's.

So how about cars which can go faster than the actual speed limit. Does
this also encourage to disobey the law!?

Schönen Gruß
Martin

[Max1234Ita]

As far as I know, in Switzerland too is illegal to have a navigation app showing speed check and other enforcement positions; If you are caught, the Law Officers may keep the irregular device and *destroy* it.

The problem, IMHO, is not in having those information mapped in the OSM Database, which is public and in some cases used also by Law Enforcement institutions.

It is a task to the navigation apps to allow hiding them, AND it's on driver's responsibility the decision of displaying such data or or not.

Cheers,

Max

[Poutnik Fornntp]

Dne 27. září 2019 9:54:15 Martin Trautmann <tr...@gmx.de> napsal:

>
>
> So how about cars which can go faster than the actual speed limit. Does
> this also encourage to disobey the law!?

Comparing to those that cannot....
... yes, they do.

E.g. I am not tempted to go faster than 50 km/h city limit on my bike.

[Ik Beweeg]

This text in the openstreetmap wiki of course does not make it law - it states the expected behaviour of navigation software using openstreeetmap data. Osmand does not respect this expected behaviour.

This would qualify as 'not very nice'.

This expected behaviour is stated because data can be used in any country, where the use must comply with local law.

It should in fact comply with laws where possession of the data on a navigation device is already prohibited, whether switched on or not.

Do you know all the laws on this topic in all countries where osmand can be installed?

Op vrijdag 27 september 2019 00:44:19 UTC+2 schreef Greg Troxel:

[Xavier]

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 01:46:49PM -0700, Ik Beweeg wrote:
>Op vrijdag 27 september 2019 00:44:19 UTC+2 schreef Greg Troxel:

>> Ik Beweeg <mithran...@gmail.com <javascript:>> writes:
>>
>> > Refering to open street map:
>> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dspeed_camera
>> > states: A navigation software shall ask during the installation
>> > procedure, whether speed cameras shall be included or not. This
>> > shall not be changeable without new installation to make sure
>> > there is no conflict with the law in countries where the use of
>> > dynamic speed cam warning devices are disallowed. Osmand has no
>> > such option, why not?
>>
>> The notion that text in a tag wiki article is somehow an authoritative
>> standard with the force of law is.... very surprising.

>... it states the expected behaviour of navigation software using

>openstreeetmap data. Osmand does not respect this expected behaviour.

>This would qualify as 'not very nice'. This expected behaviour *is*

>stated because data can be used in any country, where the use must
>comply with local law. It should in fact comply with laws where
>possession of the data on a navigation device is already prohibited,

>whether switched on or not. ...

In which case, your best course of action is to file an issue report on
the OsmAnd github page. This group is simply users helping users. We
are not the developers, nor do we oversee or control the development
process. Sometimes a developer peeks in to the group, but this group
is not the primary communications channel to reach the developers.

The issues page can be found here:
https://github.com/osmandapp/Osmand/issues

[Greg Troxel]

Ik Beweeg <mithran...@gmail.com> writes:

> This text in the openstreetmap wiki of course does not make it law - it
> states the expected behaviour of navigation software using openstreeetmap
> data. Osmand does not respect this expected behaviour.
> This would qualify as 'not very nice'.

Actually it does not state "exepcted behavior" in some overall OSM
sense. It states the desired behavior according to the person that put
the text in the wiki. It is unreasonable argumentation to assert that
wiki text must necessarily reflect community consensus.