Camera

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Chetan Makwana

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Jan 25, 2017, 1:26:38 PM1/25/17
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Hello,

How many cameras are needed for a PNP machine?

and configuration please or best camera .. please suggest..


Mike Harrison

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Jan 25, 2017, 1:34:48 PM1/25/17
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A minimum of 2 - one to view down for board fiducials ( and possibly feeders) , one to look up at
components.

Александр Зендриков

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Jan 25, 2017, 2:18:27 PM1/25/17
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Hi . You can only use one camera.

среда, 25 января 2017 г., 21:26:38 UTC+3 пользователь Chetan Makwana написал:

Jacob Christ

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Jan 25, 2017, 2:23:55 PM1/25/17
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We have one down facing camera and sometimes get better results if we don't use it.

Jacob

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oliver jackson

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Jan 25, 2017, 2:36:36 PM1/25/17
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There will be full support for down and up cameras eventually. A lot of people are using elp cameras like this one https://www.amazon.com/ELP-Driver-Camera-Module-ELP-USBFHD01M-L21/dp/B00KA7WSSU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1459379116&sr=8-3&keywords=elp+camera

If you search the group for elp camera there's a lot of discussion and you can see some example images

Jason von Nieda

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Jan 25, 2017, 2:49:05 PM1/25/17
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To expand on what others have said:

You can run OpenPnP with zero cameras, but it's not recommended. If you do that then you are manually aligning everything by eye and it's not going to work well.

A normal machine has two cameras. The down looking camera is primarily used for targeting and setup, and it is also used for fiducial location when finding the orientation of a board. The second camera is up looking and is used to improve alignment of parts before placing them. 

Unless you have a specific reason not to, I suggest using two cameras. The camera oliver linked is the one that is most commonly used, although for the down looking camera you would typically use a longer lens. For reference, I use an 8mm lens on my down looking camera and a 3.2mm lens on the up looking camera.

Jason


On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 1:36 PM oliver jackson <analogmon...@gmail.com> wrote:
There will be full support for down and up cameras eventually. A lot of people are using elp cameras like this one https://www.amazon.com/ELP-Driver-Camera-Module-ELP-USBFHD01M-L21/dp/B00KA7WSSU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1459379116&sr=8-3&keywords=elp+camera

If you search the group for elp camera there's a lot of discussion and you can see some example images

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Glen English

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Jan 25, 2017, 7:19:18 PM1/25/17
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My 2c : I'd recommend TWO cameras

both with 12mm lens

Why 12mm- well to get the FOV, it forces you to have the object further from the lens

this is beneficial because  if you are too close, the object looks different compared to if you are far away.

at least for LARGE parts. but  for 0402s  and 1210s etc it doesnt matter so much 

Consider what a 27x27 BGA looks like when you are 10mm away- you are looking SIDEWAYS into the far balls. (thanks Pete Thompson for pointing this out) 
when you are 60mm away, the balls all look the same.

Suggest aiming for better than 50um per pixel, that will help you calculate your res

I have FOV on my 12mm lens of ~ 40mm which is 40mm/1080 pixels = 37um per pixel.

Yes, Jason is getting good results for quite wide angle lens but I am not sure how much work he's done on large parts. 


glen

Sebastian Pichelhofer

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Jan 26, 2017, 1:35:51 AM1/26/17
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On Jan 26, 2017 01:19, "Glen English" <gleneng...@gmail.com> wrote:
My 2c : I'd recommend TWO cameras

both with 12mm lens

Why 12mm- well to get the FOV, it forces you to have the object further from the lens


The FOV depends on the image sensor diameter and focal length of your lens. 

What cameras/image sensors  are you using? 

Regards Sebastian 
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Glen English

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Jan 26, 2017, 4:47:30 AM1/26/17
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Seb, who are you asking the question of ?

for me, 12mm works pretty well no matter what sensor size 1/4 to 1/2.7"
I am using 1/2.7". but you get enough from 1/4" sensor.

I suggest 12mm because it is a good utility. 
For a 1/3" sensor, expect approx 30mm FOV for 75mm working distance.... but approx depends ALOT on the lens construction....

actually I suggest the CS mount with the three rings, including iris...(enables you to optimise the iris trading off light for DOF) 
Much of the the ELP range are available in CS mount... but you'll spend more money. 

but the M12 thread lens are plentiful... and seem to work pretty well, most of the guys are using real  low-end  cameras without much science, and getting good results !

suggest trying a $10 webcam...... yeah they are wide angle but anything seems to work.....the vision system performance is good.


glen

Chetan Makwana

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Jan 26, 2017, 7:10:19 AM1/26/17
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Dear all thanks for suggestions..

After reading all conversations, first of all i would like to try HD good quality of webcam..

As i am beginniner, dont want to waste money for RnD. So after getting results from webcam i ll move on specific camera...

thanks for suggestions...

Lisandro B

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Jan 27, 2017, 8:03:09 AM1/27/17
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Glenn, I have read your explanations carefully and there is very good info there, thanks for sharing.
Will you mind sharing the model of your cameras? And maybe a couple pictures?
If you already did it, please refer me to that post because I can't find it...
Thanks again

Deniz Ertan

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Jan 28, 2017, 1:01:50 PM1/28/17
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Dear Glen,

Thanks for your sharing. I am also waiting your camera model and some pictures of your system.

Thanks.

Glen English

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Jan 29, 2017, 12:04:37 AM1/29/17
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Message has been deleted
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Glen English

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Jan 29, 2017, 12:51:49 AM1/29/17
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or this one


It DEPENDS on what you are putting the camera into, and what sort of room you have

In the TVM920, there is good room for the UP camera to use either the module with the 12mm small lens (with same screw pattern! ) or a CS mount varifocal,
but for the down camera there is only room for the 12mm small lens module

For your D-I-Y home made machine, you have much more flexibility of course.

also, the varifocal lens- not all of them have iris control- you can see the words OPEN CLOSE on the middle ring, or just O and C

fšk

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Jan 29, 2017, 10:08:05 AM1/29/17
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The other day i found these:


its a bit more expensive but considering its a global shutter camera it could probably work muck better for pnp...

Glen English

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Jan 31, 2017, 4:52:00 PM1/31/17
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Certainly an advantage if anything is moving

Chetan Makwana

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Feb 13, 2017, 1:26:15 PM2/13/17
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Jason von Nieda

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Feb 13, 2017, 2:22:08 PM2/13/17
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It's a good camera, but the lens is very small. This will create a very short focal distance and a large fisheye effect. I recommend using at least an 8mm lens for top vision and I currently use a 3.2mm lens for bottom vision.

Jason


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Glen English

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Feb 13, 2017, 4:30:26 PM2/13/17
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Chetan, i think it is a good camera, but you want something like a 8 or 12mm lens. I use 12mm for up and down, 

That is a 2.1mm lens. Ask the seller for a 12mm lens to be shipped with it, they usually will sell with whatever lens that you choose.


Michael Anton

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Feb 13, 2017, 5:24:57 PM2/13/17
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Has anyone tried one like one of these:

The first two links are curious ones, as there seem to be a couple of wires that connect the lens to a second board, so I wonder what additional functionality they have?

Note that I know nothing about these sorts of cameras, so I'm just curious, and at some point I'll need to source one for my own build.

Jason von Nieda

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Feb 13, 2017, 5:32:24 PM2/13/17
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The wires are attached to the thin black object just behind the lens. This is an IR cut filter. These are common security cameras. During the day the device puts an IR filter in front of the sensor to block IR and allow for better color, then at night it is removed (and sometimes IR LEDs are used to illuminate the scene) to allow low light imaging.

Other than that, these cameras are similar to or clones of the common ELP camera that most of us use, and that Chetan linked above.

Jason


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Michael Anton

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Feb 13, 2017, 6:00:34 PM2/13/17
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Are the lenses more suitable on the ones I linked?  I was thinking that having variable focus lenses might be more useful than getting a fixed focus one, and having to guess what FOV you needed.

Glen English

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Feb 13, 2017, 6:05:48 PM2/13/17
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Michael Anton

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Feb 13, 2017, 6:20:11 PM2/13/17
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That would probably work pretty good for a bottom camera, and if it is too tall, one can always use a mirror, and mount it sideways.

Having a list somewhere of cameras that people have had good success with would be really useful.

Lisandro B

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Feb 14, 2017, 7:25:23 AM2/14/17
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Just in case, the two main Aliexpress sellers of the ELP cameras have separated lens very cheap, I bought some cameras and also different lens to experiment/optimize.
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