Feeder pitch on Siemens SIPLACE BE-Wechseltisch

[Alexander Willer]

Hello everyone,

for my PnP build I plan on using Siemens S series feeders.

Does somebody have a SIPLACE machine or a BE-Wechseltisch / changeover table and can measure the outer distance over two of the 10 mm feeder alignment pins? Preferably with three or four measurements over different pairs of pins to be sure.

I first thought the pitch (distance) would be 31 (41) mm, but now I am pretty sure it is more than that, probably 31.5 (41.5) mm, maybe even 32 (42) mm.

Best regards

Alex

[Alexander Willer]

Another two interesting dimensions would be:

- Height of the 5 mm pins over the magnet strip

- Height of the 10 mm pins over the reference surface

[Mike Menci]

Seethislink  https://groups.google.com/g/openpnp/c/hBWwKGdBlgE/m/nlEOYhSyAAAJ

[Alexander Willer]

Hello Mike,

as you can see from the pictures, I already got some special alignment pins and 3D printed some carriers as a prototype for the final steel parts. Testing the feeders with those brought up the question of proper pin pitch.

I'm pretty sure that the pitch cannot be 31 mm, as the wider feeders have not only the alignment bushings, but also a hole without a bushing to make space for the next pin they cover, see picture. With 31 mm pitch, the second pin scrapes (or barely doesn't scrape) at the bushing-less half hole, which probably isn't what Siemens engineers had in mind.

Therefor my theory is that the pitch has to be larger, probably 31.5 mm, maybe 31.6 mm (got this dimension from a Siplace dealer, but I wouldn't trust it enough for a few hundred Euro manufacturing expense for the steel parts). The 31.6 mm pitch is also to be found here: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2616380 - but it could be an arbitrary number as well.

For me, this is about ensuring compatibility with all SIPLACE S feeders, even those I don't have right now.

Alex

[Roland Exler]

Just a guess. 31.75 mm would be 1.25". As many dimensions on PCBs are based on inches could this be the actual value?

Roland

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[Alexander Willer]

Hello Roland,

I agree that going into the inch domain would be a fitting and convenient explanation, but I have some doubt as that doesn't seem very Siemens-like, given that they are a German company.

Also, I attached a screenshot from the 12/16 mm Feeder manual, stating that the feeder is 30.3 mm wide, the 8 mm dual lane feeder is this wide as well. So I'm really not sure, hope somebody in this group has a SIPLACE machine and can actually measure the pitch.

Alex

[Bernd Walter]

On Tue, Oct 04, 2022 at 02:56:55PM +0200, Roland Exler wrote:
> Just a guess. 31.75 mm would be 1.25". As many dimensions on PCBs are based
> on inches could this be the actual value?

Siemens as a company rarely use imperial measurements, unless they have to.

> Alexander Willer <kon...@alexander-willer.de> schrieb am Di., 4. Okt.
> 2022, 14:50:
>

> > as you can see from the pictures, I already got some special alignment
> > pins and 3D printed some carriers as a prototype for the final steel parts.
> > Testing the feeders with those brought up the question of proper pin pitch.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure that the pitch cannot be 31 mm, as the wider feeders have
> > not only the alignment bushings, but also a hole without a bushing to make
> > space for the next pin they cover, see picture. With 31 mm pitch, the
> > second pin scrapes (or barely doesn't scrape) at the bushing-less half
> > hole, which probably isn't what Siemens engineers had in mind.
> >
> > Therefor my theory is that the pitch has to be larger, probably 31.5 mm,
> > maybe 31.6 mm (got this dimension from a Siplace dealer, but I wouldn't
> > trust it enough for a few hundred Euro manufacturing expense for the steel
> > parts). The 31.6 mm pitch is also to be found here:
> > https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2616380 - but it could be an arbitrary
> > number as well.

I didn't measure it myself and got it from someone (don't remeber his name) who
was on this list with some teardown videos on Schultz feeders.
He had a Siplace feeder table and could theoretically measure over multiple pins,
but I can't tell how he actually measured.
All I can say is that those values work well on a well calibrated printer,
even with wider feeders.

> > For me, this is about ensuring compatibility with all SIPLACE S feeders,
> > even those I don't have right now.

--
B.Walter <be...@bwct.de> https://www.bwct.de
Modbus/TCP Ethernet I/O Baugruppen, ARM basierte FreeBSD Rechner uvm.

[Mike Menci]

I’m out of my workshop up to Friday: search this group for this Siemens old post ; 

[Mike Menci]

Alex, 

But read as well bellow that post / to see my feeder front “holding down”bracket with centering  bolts  and on beck side hex bolts M5 = head OD=10mm for positioning, spacing 31mm is OK for placing and removing of feeder, but do not go with less -(I had it 30.5mm and it did not work well)!

Any questions feel free to ask or PM me

Mike

[Alexander Willer]

@Bernd, thanks for pointing that out, I think I found the video you mentioned and will ask him if he can provide me with those dimensions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-kT5envoLE

31.6 mm right now seems to be the best candidate and I don't see how a tad too wide will cause issues, as Siemens wouldn't over-constrain any feeder by having two bushings engaging at the same time.

@Mike I have seen that drawing already but I know for sure that 31 mm causes some issues with the 44 mm feeders, as then the aluminium half-circle (see https://06413065735717202521.googlegroups.com/attach/19cbb4ddf6590/photo_2022-10-04_14-21-30.jpg?part=0.2&view=1&vt=ANaJVrFCmOi_OLLggAe6pdbD9O78YL6RCI0TaCPrjpgx6LhCoT-9Tt03vSjvt9kmVWqXmQe4jB6cC3e-qvmdeEa2pDOSBh5fNgL8ZZVjLbHgbLIqRCKFiGE) scrapes on the second pin.

[Bernd Walter]

On Tue, Oct 04, 2022 at 10:22:11AM -0700, Alexander Willer wrote:
> @Bernd, thanks for pointing that out, I think I found the video you
> mentioned and will ask him if he can provide me with those dimensions:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-kT5envoLE
>
> 31.6 mm right now seems to be the best candidate and I don't see how a tad
> too wide will cause issues, as Siemens wouldn't over-constrain any feeder
> by having two bushings engaging at the same time.

The back pin is a tight fit into the feeder - no wigle.
The front pin alides into a slot and only stabilizes sideways.
I don't think the wide feeders have multiple alignemt holes for back pins.
Not so sure about the front side on the wide feeders.
I'm not near my machine, so I can't verify wigth now, but I think the wider
feeders have a multi slot setup at the front.
I Mostly use 1.5 slot and 1 slot feeders.
The 1.5 slot ones only use one slot for alignment, since the second pin is
shared with the next 1.5 slot feeder.

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[Alexander Willer]

I attached a few more pictures of the 56 mm feeder docking features, and also of the pins I already got for mounting, that will later on be put in some steel strips.

So yeah, the pins have to be far enough apart, thats all.

[Alexander Willer]

Only now it occured to me that the bushing actually have a half-pitch spacing, apparently.

So I put in some pins and made measurements on multiple feeders, with the result that the pitch is either 31.5 or 31.6 mm :/ I still cannot tell from the measurements. Maybe I'll wait a few days for further replies, if no data comes in, I go with the 31.6 mm option.

[Mike Menci]

How does the front V looks like -on this larger feeders  can you please post a photo?

[Alexander Willer]

See attached photo and the photo from two messages before this one.

[Mike Menci]

[Mike Menci]

https://islandsmt.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/A10011-ASM-T38-X-7600-1_SP_D1i_EN_DMS.pdf

[Cosyne Wave]

Hello Alexander,

The pitch between two 5mm plots is 31.6mm (center-to-center) (as is for 10mm back plots of course)

The height of back 10mm plots is 6mm, back plots are located on a strip of 3mm height, exactly the height (over the feeder table plane) of the magnetic strip. They have a barrel shape, see attached photos   
The height of 5mm plots is 7.3mm from the table plane from which I took the height measurements.for back plots strip and magnetic strip .
The height of the plots is not that important; the diameter is important, the centering is made on side surfaces of the plots.

Can I help with other measurements or information about Siplace machines ?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/71ba35c7-c2ff-4e9b-b5ba-2f261135e46en%40googlegroups.com.

[Alexander Willer]

Thanks a lot, this is exactly what I needed! The numbers match what I have figured out already mostly (called a SIPLACE used equipment dealer, but the measurements were taken right on the phone, so I didn't trust them too much), but now I feel sure about them.

For the height of the 10 mm pins, if they are any higher than 7 mm, they will bottom out in these non-bushing cutouts that can be found in some feeders, I almost fell for that, but noticed thanks to the 3D printed prototype.

As you are already asking and provided these nice detailed pictures of the feeder interface, can you give me the start/end positions (aka width and offset) of the magnet strip and the back reference surface in the horizontal plane, to their respective pins? The reason I think this would be useful is that I would then lower the non-contact areas of my mounting rails, as some feeders are quite beaten up in the non-reference contact areas, leading to uneven contact - see pictures.

When I'm done with construction, mfg and testing of my mounting rails, I will do a "definitive" SIPLACE S feeder interface drawing and add it to this thread.

[Alexander Willer]

Also, I forgot that for such a "definitive" interface drawing the distance between the two pin rows would be neccessary to know as well. In my case, the mounting rails are adjustable, so I haven't thought of that for my build.

[Mike Menci]

If your front pin is OD 5mm than the distance to beck pin (OD 10mm) should be 257.50mm

Wane can you confirm this ?

Mike 

Sent from my iPhone

On 4 Oct 2022, at 19:15, Mike Menci <mike....@gmail.com> wrote:

I’m out of my workshop up to Friday: search this group for this Siemens old post ; 

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<D8B1D852-5357-4A82-8208-46BD0B22869B.png>

<95A8FFDD-C2DB-4CE7-8F78-8A4E6442D975.jpeg>

[Cosyne Wave]

Hello,

Here are two more photos for this thread with the answers to your questions .


BR,

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[Mike Menci]

I just got home and I am measuring this "Siplace feeder bed plate" the way I have done it is: 

1) Front pin M5 hex head centring (Head OD=8mm) 
2) Beck pin M6 hex head centring (Head OD= 10mm)

3) Distance front to beck pin = 257,50mm

4) Distance feeder to feeder (2x8mm) = 31,0mm

Note: I use spacers under the Hex head bolts as on picture enclosed

Mike

[Mike Menci]

And here some more details: 

[Bernd Walter]

I just measured a 56mm feeder (old style).
Since it can be mounted in half steps it has 2 slots.
Width of the slots are 5mm.
Distance (outside to outside) is 20.4mm, so 15.4mm middle spacing.
This would sum up to 30.8mm
Very close values when I measure the bushings on the back side.
The feeder is 69mm in body width.

The body width of my (older type) dual lane 8mm feeders are 29.75mm

So 31mm sounds plausible.
That said - I'm not unhappy with my 31.6 I had used.

On Fri, Oct 07, 2022 at 09:50:29AM -0700, Mike Menci wrote:
> And here some more details:
>
>
> On Friday, 7 October 2022 at 18:25:33 UTC+2 Mike Menci wrote:
>
> > I just got home and I am measuring this "Siplace feeder bed plate" the way
> > I have done it is:

> > 1) Front pin M5 hex head centring (Head *OD=8mm)*
> > 2) Beck pin M6 hex head centring (Head *OD= 10mm*)
> > 3) *Distance* front to beck pin = *257,50mm*
> > 4) *Distance* feeder to feeder (2x8mm) = *31,0mm*

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[Mike Menci]

Great - Step file enclosed