Servo Motors for X & Y

[Dogboy]

Hello,

Can anyone recommend  a good servo motor and controller to use for the X & Y axis? And what would be a good make and where to purchase them.

I am interested in looking at servo motors as well as steppers with encoders.

Need to look at all options. 

I now have a Duet 3 6XD so my plan is to use external motor drivers.

Thanks

Paul 

[dc42]

Here are two options that are popular with Duet OEMs n the additive manufacturing space:

1. Duet3D closed loop stepper motors. These connect to the Duet via CAN bus. To achieve the highest speeds, use them with 48V power. See https://www.duet3d.com/duet3motor23cl.

2. ClearPath servos. These connect to the 6XD via the step/dir/enable outputs.

Other types of servo and closed loop stepper motor have been used with Duets; these are just the most popular.

HTH David

[Flash Packets]

If you want to replace NEMA 17 size motors then please consider the use of the MKS Servo42D. This driver uses 14 bit angle sensors and FOC "Field Oriented Control" producing a magnetic field that is identical to a conventional servo drive. The latest D series comes with additional RS485 or CAN interfaces. This drive is added to the end plate of your existing NEMA17 motors. Present prices on AliExpress are $18 and change.

Basically, you can take any NEMA17 motor and turn it into a "servo" for about $20 and a 1/2 hour of your time per motor, or for $30 just swap out your existing motor with a "magic" sub assembly.

[Wayne Black]

@ Flash Packets

Are you able to send CAN movement/potion commands from the Duet3D controller to the MKS Servo42D? I'm using a MKS Servo42D rs485 and the Duet aux comm port function to abstract the MKS Servo42D position data only. Is it possible to send Duet movement/position commands directly to MKS Servo42D via the Duet3D CAN protocol? I would be very interested in how this is accomplished.

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Wayne Black

Owner

Black Box Embedded, LLC

black...@blackboxembedded.com

1.831.682.4964

[Peter Chaisty]

I am using clearpath servos. I went for the clearcore controller and the sw programmable version of the servos as opposed to stepper emulation.

On YouTube there is a guy called Clough and he compares the closed loop steppers with the clearpath servos.

Peter 

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[Litterio Andrea Guainella]

Hi Peter, could you please share some more information?

Such as the connection and interfacing scheme with openpnp.

I am also interested in clearpath servos but I can't find anyone who can provide a video of a working pnp and feedback on usage or reliability.

Thank you

LAG

[Peter Chaisty]

Hi Paul

I have just fitted them to my X,Y as my machine uses 5mm ball screws and it requires high rpm (around 3000) and decent torque.

This gives me enough resolution to do 0201 if I am stupid enough, but 0402 is easy.

They are a standard fitting so it's definitely not any different to fitting stepper motors.

That said I also have a liteplacer and they would be a silly overspec for that.

So, if your machine has some decent mass and you want high accuracy, the clear path servos are a good fit.  

Depending on your sw skill level ..

1/ They offer versions that work effectively as steppers with step and dir inputs. 

2/ I went for the sw controlled version. It has no GCode interpreter but they give sample code to allow it to respond to commands using the clearcore controller ($99).

I will probably write the G code interpreter for this anyway. 

The clear core controller can also then via a stepper drive board be used to drive your pickup head / pumps / light on off etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj1LyYEvstw&t=121s

For a PNP I would use 2 servos for x,y. Then use the two remaining outputs configured as stepper drivers for the head up/down / Rotation.

Then the IO for the other control functions like pump/light plus it has ADC input for pressure if needed.

However, this requires some programming.

Peter

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[Peter Chaisty]

Hi Paul here is the info for stepper mode, it doesnt require any sw 

https://youtu.be/-gigcf7ZzAQ?si=_XCuuinRv9GqfWrq

https://youtu.be/NbLE126rrRs?si=eWx4PaYJwwwRxoVh

Let me know if you need any specific information

Peter

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[Litterio Andrea Guainella]

Thanks Peter for the valuable contribution.

From what you write it seems that you opt for the controller programmed via sw for reliability reasons.

Do you think that the STEP/DIR ones are not up to par or are you worried about the driving frequency?

Many controllers usually used in pnp have this problem. I too am trying, in my spare time, to build my own pnp and I too will opt for ball screws and clearpath motors.

LAG

[Peter Chaisty]

Hi Lag

I think the stepper versions are amazing as well.

It's just I wanted to make my own controller hybrid and the clearcore is a good choice for me. I went down the smoothie and various other controller stages in the past and they weren't for me ,

If you use a board with its own motion controller then you just hook the servo up to the stepper interface signals.

I just wanted more control, as someone said in a previous reply they would need a lot of work to work on a cnc router or milling machine as then they would need a full motion planner. Then I would probably use an acorn controller and the stepper interface version of the servos.

However in a pnp at least in my case, I lift the head very high so I will just be telling each axis to go to its programmed point and i dont worry about it hitting anything.

Thats more than good enough for me . 

Peter

as they would need a

[Wayne Black]

To play devil advocate re the Clearpath, As a former owner/user of the SD motors Im not a big fan. In regards for using in pnp the biggest drawback is the ridiculous use of Molex Mini Jr cables/connectors for differential signal cabling. I can understand for power, but for the signals?! The Mini Jr cables/connectors are expensive, big, heavy, rigid and way oversized for a signal cable. When I was using the SD motors, I made Mini Jr to ethernet patch cables.

[Peter Chaisty]

Hi Wayne 

They are used a lot in industry. For power they run best off 75V.

As you said easy enough to make an adapter especially for the signal cable.

They are very industrial, overkill for hobby machines probably.

My machine which is home made takes two people to lift.

For the heads I am using trinamic drivers.

Peter

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[Wayne Black]

Hey Peter,

Understood, that's just one frustration w CP. For my CNC I now use yaskawa ac servos with centroid/acorn. After going ac servo Id never go back to dc for anything over light duty.

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[Peter Chaisty]

Wayne

DC are ok for a pnp . The AC servos on my milling CNC machines are huge.

They are always trying to kill you.

Different beasts.

I have a hedenhain controller on my CNC mill but it does weigh over a ton.

Machines are fun..

Peter 

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[David Crocker]

Has anyone actually used those MKS servo add-ons in a PnP machine? Last time we looked at them we came to the conclusion that the MCU was too underpowered to implement FOC at a speed that would give sufficiently high movement rates. We had to switch to a higher-performance processor on our own closed loop stepper drivers in order to get high enough speeds.

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[Peter Chaisty]

Hi David 

They sound like they are using the trinamic stepper control IC's / now analog devices .

If so then its all built into the chip.

https://www.analog.com/en/resources/technical-articles/fluesterleise-schrittmotortreiber-fuer-alle.html

Peter

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[Peter Chaisty]

Hi Lag

I just noticed 

The SC can also be configured to use step and dir as well

so if your interested in sw control as well then there is nothing to lose.

Peter

On Thursday, 2 January 2025 at 14:32:20 UTC ls.info...@gmail.com wrote:

[SM]

>> Has anyone actually used those MKS servo add-ons in a PnP machine? Last time we looked at them we came to the conclusion that the MCU was too underpowered to implement FOC at a speed that would give sufficiently high movement rates. We had to switch to a higher-performance processor on our own closed loop stepper drivers in order to get high enough speeds.

MKS is known for their low cost products full of design flaws and other problems. So it's not surprising that many things simply don't work as promised.

An example from my humble experience: if you use ballscrews with the smallest useful pitch of 20mm on PnP machines, you need very high rotational speeds (3000 - 5000 rpm) to avoid creep speed. And stepper motors are absolutely out of place here, as they never have enough torque at high speeds and the settling times are also quite long. Almost every (well-known brand) AC servo uses sufficiently fast signal processors and/or FPGAs to be able to process the necessary resolution (up to 24 bits) of the encoder(s) in the shortest possible time. You can't do that with a cheap mcu.

But you can use a (ADI) Trinamic chipset for rather slow closed loop stepper solutions, e.g. for the Z-axis motors - this is known to work quite well (example).

[bert shivaan]

What is this witchcraft that is taking a single picture of all 4 nozzles? OR - taking all pics on the fly?

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[Litterio Andrea Guainella]

Thank you Peter. I will keep this in mind when purchasing the motors

LAG

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[Peter Chaisty]

Hi also 

Its worth checking the stepper or servo max rpm vs your ballscrew.

Make sure it has enough RPM to give you the surace speed you need .

Peter

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[Wayne Black]

Hey David!

Has anyone actually used those MKS servo add-ons in a PnP machine? Last time we looked at them we came to the conclusion that the MCU was too underpowered to implement FOC at a speed that would give sufficiently high movement rates. We had to switch to a higher-performance processor on our own closed loop stepper drivers in order to get high enough speeds.

 I'm using the MKS 'D' for the Z. On the Z vel/accel is not my biggest consideration. For the Z I'm most interested in keeping the dual nozzles neutrally balanced and position known during XY movement. The 'D' is doing a good job of efficiently 'locking' the Z in place. I also have an axis interlock running off its position. You can see in the video.

There's a pretty good test/review of the 'C' here. Bottom line the C falls short in speed and doesnt meet advertised specs.

I pulled out one of the D boards and it looks like the MCU is Nation M4 64MHz N32L403 and EG3013S gate drivers. 

Fyi, I tried to accomplish the above using the Duet 1HCL and the Duet mag board. but it just didn't work out like I had hoped. The MKS D is working well for me, my app

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[Mike Menci]

I am running my PnP (for 2nd year now) with two X and Y Yaskawa servo Packs SGDV-xxx 230V, 2nd hand Servos (200W + 100 W) and I have no problems with them. The speeds I am lowering down due to low weight of my PnP table/base .... 

I would recommend Yaskawa to whoever is willing to go this way.... 

Cheers in 2025!

[Mike Menci]

Some videos from my tunning PnP: https://studio.youtube.com/video/jZ0HPHI2JHY/edit

[Mike Menci]

New link to Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ0HPHI2JHY

[Wayne Black]

Nice Mike.

I replaced my CHMT CL drivers with 'T60' CL drivers using the stock CHMT nema57 motors w opti encoders. The combo works pretty well at 48VDC and I never run the machine over 75% w plenty of XY speed. Now that I have an accelerometer on the head I can do some practical comparison, just waiting for my new Z Plate/ X Carriage to arrive...

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[Peter Chaisty]

Hi Mike

I think servos and ball screws are a good mix.

Peter

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[Mike Menci]

And here is the layout .sch - as much I could pull out of smoothieboard

[SM]

> > What is this witchcraft that is taking a single picture of all 4 nozzles? OR - taking all pics on the fly?

Haha, no witchcraft - just a feasibility study with cheap industrial cameras

[bert shivaan]

But does it work? I mean it looks like it works in the video. How is openPNP handling the multi cam instant picture taking?

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[M. Mencinger]

when you compare AC servos and steppers - I never seen steppers  doing this - 8 axis: 
Mike

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Mike

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[SM]

>> But does it work? I mean it looks like it works in the video

it works very well, but not with the current OpenPnP (I've tried for years)

Bert, you need to know that there are problems with licensing the camera SDKs and with Java, which has there no hardware-related support

but maybe there will be OpenPnP 4.0 in another programming language one day, who knows

sorry for my offtopic blabla

[David Crocker]

Hi Wayne, can you tell me in what way the 1HCL + magnetic encoder didn't work out; and what stepper monitor and supply voltage you used with it?

Best regards - David

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[Wayne Black]

Hey David,

I'll preface this with saying I love Duet controllers. The combo of support, scalability and hardware, Duet is unmatched in my opinion.

That said, I havnt been a fan of the Duet CL stuff

 Some of my biggest gripes in terms of intended fxn;

-1CHL Vmot < 48, I think this may have changed or I might be wrong, but the Vmot limit is 32-36vdc IIRC. My system is 48vdc for XY 

-The calibration scheme, again IIRC and its been awhile, Duet CL cal needs to be run each and every time regardless of the FB mechanism be it mag or opti. Ive tried cheap asian CL drivers and this is not the case. 

Some gripes in terms of personal application;

- I spent some good money on the Duet nema17 opti motor that turned out to be 0.9deg, but later read in a wiki 0.9deg is not recommended for the Duet CL system.

- Given the above I had a pretty short fuse and when I tried the Duet mag board and it failed to operate with the 1HCL I just gave up. I dont know if you recall I had a pair of 1HCLs with the spi header installed bawards

- The form factor just doesn't work. I needed something smaller.

Given the above, especially the latter, I just wanted the Duet control/CAN mechanism so I made my custom Duet CAN Exp board (Thank you for your help) What I am using and working well for me;

6HC driving 'T60' CL drivers via 1XDs on the XY at 48v and MKS D on the Z at 24V. Practical accuracy and speed meet my needs perfectly.

Thank you again David, you and Duet are a great resource to the community :)

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[dc42]

Hi Wayne, thanks for responding.

You appear to have a couple of misconceptions about the 1HCL:

- All versions of the 1HCL are 48V-capable
- When using the magnetic encoder, calibration only needs to be performed once, or after you remove and refit the encoder to the motor. [If using a quadrature encoder, a short calibration sequence is needed after power up.]

- Operation with 0.9deg motors is possible, but is not recommended especially if using a quadrature encoder. Maximum speed may be lower than with 1.8deg motors because of the increased back EMF.

I'm sorry that you received boards with the SPI header fitted backwards. Our PCB assemblers perform optical inspection after assembly but I guess reversal of the header is too fine a detail for it to pick up. Our ATE uses pogo pins to test the connections, so it won't pick up a reversed header.

Best regards, David

[Wayne Black]

Hey David,

Re 1HCL, This is great news and apologies if I was sharing incorrect info re the Vmot. This was the only thing holding me back from using the 1HCL for the XY.  I see the Vmot limit is 50V. Im using quad encoders and I need to double check that calibration can take place after the homing sequence. Is this the case?

Re the Mag board, I may be mistaken on that as well, but the the 1HCL + mag board won't fit my head for Z. What would be super cool is if Duet came up w 1HCL+mag encoder board that fit the Nema17 (42mm^2). Id be the first in line for that. Form factor, aside what is cool about the MKS D is the set and return to zero functions. I never bothered with CL on the Z until I started using automated tool changing. I suffered a severe crash when the open loop Z lost steps during a tool change.

Anxiously awaiting Duets response to the MKS D...

Thank you David

[Flash Packets]

Presently I'm running the Servo42C generation that does not enjoy the CAN feature, so I cannot answer your question.

On Wednesday, January 1, 2025 at 12:12:45 PM UTC-7 black...@blackboxembedded.com wrote:

@ Flash Packets

Are you able to send CAN movement/potion commands from the Duet3D controller to the MKS Servo42D? I'm using a MKS Servo42D rs485 and the Duet aux comm port function to abstract the MKS Servo42D position data only. Is it possible to send Duet movement/position commands directly to MKS Servo42D via the Duet3D CAN protocol? I would be very interested in how this is accomplished.

On Wed, Jan 1, 2025 at 10:28 AM Flash Packets <flashp...@gmail.com> wrote:

If you want to replace NEMA 17 size motors then please consider the use of the MKS Servo42D. This driver uses 14 bit angle sensors and FOC "Field Oriented Control" producing a magnetic field that is identical to a conventional servo drive. The latest D series comes with additional RS485 or CAN interfaces. This drive is added to the end plate of your existing NEMA17 motors. Present prices on AliExpress are $18 and change.

Basically, you can take any NEMA17 motor and turn it into a "servo" for about $20 and a 1/2 hour of your time per motor, or for $30 just swap out your existing motor with a "magic" sub assembly.

On Thursday, December 19, 2024 at 8:55:31 AM UTC-7 dc42 wrote:

Here are two options that are popular with Duet OEMs n the additive manufacturing space:

1. Duet3D closed loop stepper motors. These connect to the Duet via CAN bus. To achieve the highest speeds, use them with 48V power. See https://www.duet3d.com/duet3motor23cl.

2. ClearPath servos. These connect to the 6XD via the step/dir/enable outputs.

Other types of servo and closed loop stepper motor have been used with Duets; these are just the most popular.

HTH David

On Saturday, 14 December 2024 at 20:51:34 UTC Dogboy wrote:

Hello,

Can anyone recommend  a good servo motor and controller to use for the X & Y axis? And what would be a good make and where to purchase them.

I am interested in looking at servo motors as well as steppers with encoders.

Need to look at all options. 

I now have a Duet 3 6XD so my plan is to use external motor drivers.

Thanks

Paul 

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