Anyone else using KiCad files???

[Peter Betz]

Hi Guys,

I am using KiCad now, and am having significant issues with setting the boards up in openpnp so I thought I would check and see if anyone is successfully using it.

I was certain I had something set up incorrectly setup on my machine and was causing the issues, however, I downloaded the demoboard (I have the new one Anythonly made) and everything is perfect (thats an eagle board).

The issue I have is that either with fiducial setup or using the 2 part location setup, all of the parts end up incorrectly placed on the machine (within about 5mm max error). The interesting thing is that the error is present even on the two parts you selected with the camera....

Here is an example of what I see after manually using the 2 fiducial locations to set up the board, and tell the camera to go to C13:

Peter.

[Jason von Nieda]

Peter,

As best as I can tell from your screenshot, the only issue is that the board origin is off.

After setting the board location, either with the fidicuials or the 2 point positioning, use the red square button on the job side to move the camera to the board origin. Does it look correct, including the angle? 

Jason

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[Cri S]

The know bug of the 2 point positioning is that board angle must be 90 degree multiplies or it will fail. One have to manually set it before calling the wizard.

[Peter Betz]

Hi Guys,

 Jason, I will double check that, I believe when I do that the origin looks incorrect. 

Cri, This is interesting....The board would definitely not be at exactly 90 degrees. I guess I could try and set it to 90 degrees and then try it again. But even when I use the fudcial tool, it is also incorrect. Only with cicada boards. 

Next I am also going to try importing using the paste layer.

Peter.

[Jason von Nieda]

Peter,

If the origin is incorrect then everything will be off. I suggest focusing on it that first. There's not much need to try importing differently. It's easy to verify if the import is valid. Just look at the placement coordinates in the table and see if they match the values in your CAD software. If they are the same, the issue is with origin or machine.

Jason

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[Cri S]

The 90 degree multiplies mean, board angle have to 0, 90, 180, 270 degree when start the wizard otherwise results are wrong.

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[Jason von Nieda]

Cri, do you have an example of this? I am not aware of this bug. I just ran a test with a board at 36 degrees and it worked fine.

Jason

On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 4:21 PM Cri S <phon...@gmail.com> wrote:

The 90 degree multiplies mean, board angle have to 0, 90, 180, 270 degree when start the wizard otherwise results are wrong.

Il 22/ago/2016 01:17 "Peter Betz" <betzt...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

Hi Guys,

 Jason, I will double check that, I believe when I do that the origin looks incorrect. 

Cri, This is interesting....The board would definitely not be at exactly 90 degrees. I guess I could try and set it to 90 degrees and then try it again. But even when I use the fudcial tool, it is also incorrect. Only with cicada boards. 

Next I am also going to try importing using the paste layer.

Peter.

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[Cri S]

Jason, I suppose you know the underlaying mat of calcPlacementLocation or how the function is named.
Using the example of Daniel, 0.66 degrees offset. Supposing further placement placement A is 5mm from board origin and placement B is 200mm distant from origin.
Board should be at angle 0.
idealLoacationB after angle correction of 0.66 deg. Is moved 1.15mm and ideallocationA moved 0.028mm . Now because of floating point errors, that evil 0.66 deg produces a random 0.2 degree error on result, that was not present if board rotation was 0. That 0.2 error is 0.35mm at 200mm distance. The 0.2 deg error here is only supposed as hypothetical error. If its 0.066 deg. the resulting error is 0.11mm . Even that could be a problem if it sums up to other errors for finer pitch or bigger distances.
It is a consequence of not using fiducials center location but board 0 location for fiducials/placement calc.

Il 22/ago/2016 01:25 "Jason von Nieda" <ja...@vonnieda.org> ha scritto:

Cri, do you have an example of this? I am not aware of this bug. I just ran a test with a board at 36 degrees and it worked fine.

Jason

On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 4:21 PM Cri S <phon...@gmail.com> wrote:

The 90 degree multiplies mean, board angle have to 0, 90, 180, 270 degree when start the wizard otherwise results are wrong.

Il 22/ago/2016 01:17 "Peter Betz" <betzt...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

Hi Guys,

 Jason, I will double check that, I believe when I do that the origin looks incorrect. 

Cri, This is interesting....The board would definitely not be at exactly 90 degrees. I guess I could try and set it to 90 degrees and then try it again. But even when I use the fudcial tool, it is also incorrect. Only with cicada boards. 

Next I am also going to try importing using the paste layer.

Peter.

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[Matt Brocklehurst]

Hi Cri

If its due to float errors can be promote the type to a double? Floats are bad for any precision work because not all numbers can be represented, and its not a linear thing either.

Matt

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[Peter Betz]

The plot thickens...

I noticed my DRO is not zeroing after homing. I figured this was an XML or config issue but I can't seem to get it to change!

I found that when openPnP starts the H1 N1 offsets are in the DRO. After homing they remain there, despite calling G92 X0 Y0 after G28 homing.

Here is my screen after homing:

Here are the offsets found in the XML:

<head-offsets units="Millimeters" x="20.062" y="-56.961" z="0.0" rotation="0.0"/>

And the homing sequence:

<home-command>G92.1
             G28 Z
             G01 Z-5.0
             G92 Z0
             G28 X
             G28 Y
             G92 X0 Y0 </home-command>

The Z axis zeros properly but it was specified as "0" in the offsets so I imagine it would give grief too is it were any other number. G92.1 was added to clear any persistent offsets as troubleshooting. Probably not a bad idea to have.

XML is attached. Hopefully someone has some insight??

Thanks,

Peter.

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[Cri S]

I do not know why, but I have seen several times with different versions that if x and y sign differ, it makes position errors. It's fine if both sign are negative and it's fine if both are positive.

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[Jason von Nieda]

Peter,

This is behaving as expected. The DROs show the position of the selected nozzle. Since your nozzle is offset from your head, when your head reports it's position as 0,0,0,0 then the nozzle's position is it's offsets.

Jason

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[Jason von Nieda]

Thanks Cri S. I am not sure I fully understand, so tomorrow I will run through the math by hand and see what I get. I believe you are saying this is due to floating point error with certain angle values?

If you don't mind, it would be very helpful if you could explain how you come to the error value of 0.2 degrees step by step.

Thanks,

Jason

On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 5:44 PM Cri S <phon...@gmail.com> wrote:

Jason, I suppose you know the underlaying mat of calcPlacementLocation or how the function is named.
Using the example of Daniel, 0.66 degrees offset. Supposing further placement placement A is 5mm from board origin and placement B is 200mm distant from origin.
Board should be at angle 0.
idealLoacationB after angle correction of 0.66 deg. Is moved 1.15mm and ideallocationA moved 0.028mm . Now because of floating point errors, that evil 0.66 deg produces a random 0.2 degree error on result, that was not present if board rotation was 0. That 0.2 error is 0.35mm at 200mm distance. The 0.2 deg error here is only supposed as hypothetical error. If its 0.066 deg. the resulting error is 0.11mm . Even that could be a problem if it sums up to other errors for finer pitch or bigger distances.
It is a consequence of not using fiducials center location but board 0 location for fiducials/placement calc.

Il 22/ago/2016 01:25 "Jason von Nieda" <ja...@vonnieda.org> ha scritto:

Cri, do you have an example of this? I am not aware of this bug. I just ran a test with a board at 36 degrees and it worked fine.

Jason

On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 4:21 PM Cri S <phon...@gmail.com> wrote:

The 90 degree multiplies mean, board angle have to 0, 90, 180, 270 degree when start the wizard otherwise results are wrong.

Il 22/ago/2016 01:17 "Peter Betz" <betzt...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

Hi Guys,

 Jason, I will double check that, I believe when I do that the origin looks incorrect. 

Cri, This is interesting....The board would definitely not be at exactly 90 degrees. I guess I could try and set it to 90 degrees and then try it again. But even when I use the fudcial tool, it is also incorrect. Only with cicada boards. 

Next I am also going to try importing using the paste layer.

Peter.

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[Cri S]

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/openpnp/CA%2BQw0jymde3-OKqPqh80y5Xh_rDR4MqXzHqcjENe_rPVuC%2B6CQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Cri S]

I make a real example ASAP

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[Peter Betz]

Ok. This makes sense as you describe it. I guess I just never noticed that the DRO doesn't zeros.  

I will do a complete run through of importing and setting up a eagle board then a KiCad board using the two point location, hopefully this evening. 

Peter Betz

BETZtechnik.ca

On Aug 21, 2016, at 9:39 PM, Jason von Nieda <ja...@vonnieda.org> wrote:

Peter,

This is behaving as expected. The DROs show the position of the selected nozzle. Since your nozzle is offset from your head, when your head reports it's position as 0,0,0,0 then the nozzle's position is it's offsets.

Jason

On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 9:22 PM Cri S <phon...@gmail.com> wrote:

I do not know why, but I have seen several times with different versions that if x and y sign differ, it makes position errors. It's fine if both sign are negative and it's fine if both are positive.

Il 22/ago/2016 05:33 "Peter Betz" <betzt...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

The plot thickens...

I noticed my DRO is not zeroing after homing. I figured this was an XML or config issue but I can't seem to get it to change!

I found that when openPnP starts the H1 N1 offsets are in the DRO. After homing they remain there, despite calling G92 X0 Y0 after G28 homing.

Here is my screen after homing:

<Capture.PNG>

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[Cri S]

Here the promised calcs.
Board location 100 100
First fiducial 5 5
Second fiducial 205 205
0 is calc with ideal coord and 0 rotation
1 is calc with ideal coordinate and 0.666 rot
2 is calc with 3.333 deg offset and minimal additional offset.

[Cri S]

[Cri S]

@Peter
I have submitted pull request for the wizard.
Are you able to test it?

[Peter Betz]

Hi Cri,

 Sorry for the delay. I assume this is the one that Jason tried and it didn't work, right?