Guiding failing with new guide scope

[Paul Wilson]

My new Guide scope at first needed to be focused.  With an hour of tedious back and forth, I got decent stars with my ZWO ASI290MM.  When I started it up, it found guide stars but the blue line and the red line diverged and just stopped.

I thought, "Calibration"!  It needs calibration.  So I tried to start calibration.  It said (older version) "Not enough stars in this part of the sky.  Enable slewing".  So I did.  It went looking for a rich starfield...below the horizon.  I righted the scope and tried for an hour, no luck.

Now I have the newest version and will try again to get guiding going.  Is it going to do the same thing?  

I downloaded several logs of my failed guiding.  Never previously had so much trouble.  My mount is 4 year old EQ6-R Pro.  I just checked its belt.  Its not inflexibly tight but doesn't have huge give either (I don't have experience with belt adjustments).  

Any suggestions appreciated.  Without guiding I am dead in the water.

[Brian Valente]

Hi Paul

It sounds like you need to tackle the basics. My suggestion is to start with the baseline guiding steps found here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zrf0au7jaisvt85/How%20to%20create%20a%20baseline%20for%20guiding%20results%20using%20OpenPHD2.pdf?dl=0

once you get that sorted out you should at least get a workable calibration in the right part of the sky

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[Bryan]

Paul

What is your guide scope?  For a focal length of only 120 mm and a typical focal ratio, the aperture must be very small OR the focal length is incorrect.  A focal length of 120 mm results in a large image scale (~5"/pxl)

Also, you used dev6 on the last two sessions. This includes the new Calibration Assistant (CA).  Give that a try.  The latest stable version (2.6.11) also include CA.  It will manage slews to the appropriate position in the sky and issue alerts for common barriers to good calibration

Bryan

[Bruce Waddington]

Actually you need to use 2.6.11dev6, that's the first place the Calibration Assistant is available.  And you should use it for all your calibrations until you have everything dialed in.

https://openphdguiding.org/development-snapshots/

Bruce

[Bryan]

Thanks for correcting me, Bruce.  I thought it went into stable version after dev5.

Bryan

[Paul Wilson]

Thanks, yes I downloaded it yesterday and am eager to try it, but clouds never give me multiple nights.  Not this year anyway.  

[bw_m...@earthlink.net]

There’s something I don’t understand here – you said: It said (older version) "Not enough stars in this part of the sky.  Enable slewing".  So I did.  It went looking for a rich starfield...below the horizon.

 

That’s not something that comes from PHD2, it’s coming from some other application.  At this point, you should just be running PHD2 with the mount until you get all these basic problems worked out.  If this other app wanted to slew the scope below the horizon, you probably don’t have the date, time, and site location programmed in the mount and/or app correctly.  

 

Bruce

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/open-phd-guiding/02309ce9-62a6-4162-b0ee-ed01bc2d3828n%40googlegroups.com.

[Paul Wilson]

Hi Bryan.  I had started to have some guiding problem of unknown origin with my older, larger ZWO guide scope that they don't make anymore (50mm?).  But mostly, it was too long to fit on the top dovetail of my new Tak E160ED.  So I got the little ZWO Mini Guide Scope, and it has a 120mm focal length.  I did enter that into the PhD equipment page.  Focusing the little guide scope was tedious, sliding the little ASI guide cam in and out.

I never had guiding issues on the ASIAIR Pro and guiding was something that just always worked.  

I didn't download the latest calibration assistant  (Dev 6) until yesterday.  Last night was too cloudy to test.  Tonight, ha, poor seeing and not great transparency, but if it is clear, I will try to test PhD 2 again and with the new guiding assistant.  I also do have 2.6.11.  

There hadn't been a clear night here for so long that I was a bit out of the groove and after my initial PA, I inadvertently left a clutch level unlocked after balancing.  That error was immediately obvious.  I put it back on and did a 2nd PA.  All good.  

But then when I started PhD2, more problems.  The guide stars looked acceptable to me, and PhD selected guide stars.  When I pushed the green button however, the blue and red lines went in different directions.

I got an error message I have NEVER seen before:  that my mount slew rate had to be increased because PhD 2 was unable to make calibration corrections.  Huh?  I didn't even know how or where to check that.  People told me online yesterday that is on the EQMOD popup that NINA shows.  I still don't know exactly what to look for there or what number to put in if I found it.  Yesterday I checked the lateral give on my EQ6-R and there was none.  I checked the belt tightness, and it was not rigidly  taut but it didn't appear to have too much slop either, so not sure.

I tried using the Dev 2 calibration assistant and it said insufficient stars in Hercules.  Ok great.  It suggested that I let it slew, so I did.  That's when it pointed at the ground.,  I remain uncertain today about what is the real cause of my guiding problem.

[Paul Wilson]

Thanks for your comment.  All suggestions much appreciated!  I am pretty new to PhD 2, coming from ASIAIR Pro.  I had the older version of the guiding assistant in PhD2.  That was Dev 2 that had a slew button and pointed the scope at the ground.  However!  Initially I had an error that said that PhD2 couldn't calibrate my guide scope because my mount slew speed needed to be increased in order for PhD to make corrections.  I must admit that I was stumped by that error.  It's one I never saw before and I don't even know where to check that or what speed is necessary?  Someone yesterday said it's on the EQMOD pop up that NINA uses.  

I checked my lat/longs in NINA and they are correct.  I don't know if PhD 2 also needs the lat/longs entered separately.  I would be surprised if the date and time were wrong because my rig, when set up in my home driveway, is connected to a mesh disc and it has internet support at all times.

[Brian Valente]

Hi Paul

what are the chances you tried using PHD previously? 

The main issue you have right now is you haven't been able to produce a working calibration. It appears to be falling back to a calibration you did on 11/2/2022. So it doesn't surprise me that things have changed between then and your recent attempts

Other issues:

your guidescope focal length setting is 280mm. is that correct or is it 120mm?

Your EQMod settings for guidspeed are far too slow and won't produce workable guiding. you need to set proper EQMod settings by following these recommendations: https://github.com/OpenPHDGuiding/phd2/wiki/EQASCOM-Settings

regarding your comment

>>>I never had guiding issues on the ASIAIR Pro and guiding was something that just always worked.

It probably isn't going to be as simple as "it just always works" when you move to best of breed software like EQMod and PHD. Once you get it configured properly, you will be in good shape and get great results, but it's going to take some learning and setting up to take all your software configured correctly.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/open-phd-guiding/267cb845-505e-43b1-8221-16ee5698882an%40googlegroups.com.

[Paul Wilson]

I had definitely gone into PhD2 and corrected to 120mm focal length.  Yes, 280mm was the focal length of my old guide scope, the older, larger ZWO 50mm.  I will definitely recheck that focal length today in PhD2.  I would LOVE for my problem to be something so fixable as that, though I don't know why my change would have not "stuck".  Yes, I switched to NINA and EQMOD and PhD because I felt they offered superior features.  I have been at this for several years now, and I have the patience, if not the best skills, to get it all working smoothly.

Much appreciate your help!  

[Bruce Waddington]

If you've changed the focal length, you need to re-run the new-profile-wizard and create a new profile with the CORRECT parameters.  You should do that after you've first fixed the guide speed problem in EQMOD and made sure that EQMOD knows your correct time zone, time of day, latitude,  and longitude.  Guiding is a precise business if you really care about the results you're getting.  Based on what you've said, it would probably be a good idea to review some documentation:

https://openphdguiding.org/man-dev/

https://github.com/OpenPHDGuiding/phd2/wiki/EQASCOM-Settings

https://openphdguiding.org/phd2-best-practices/

[Paul Wilson]

I just rechecked my guide scope focal length in PhD 2.  It appears correctly as 120mm.  So that wasn't the problem and that setting was in PhD2 2 nights ago.

I agree that a new calibration is entirely necessary.  I changed guide scopes!   

But I am not sure why PhD2 was having trouble recalibrating.  I have watched several PhD2 turtorial videos, it looks pretty straightforward.  

One of the error messages, the one about needing to make my mount slew faster, I am not sure about what is needed.  I found where to set it, see photo attached.  Dec is currently set to zero.  Ha, ChatGBT says that a zero setting is normal for tracking but can be adjusted if necessary.  If I should get that error message again and it wants Dec increased, what number should I put in there?  Same as RA?  Then put it back to zero when I start to image?

At any rate, I do have the newest guiding assistant installed and I will attempt to use that.  Tonight in fact, if the sky is clear, even if seeing and transparency suck.

One more question:  the image produced by the guide scope presents a fairly "bright" image.  The stars are visible but the background is far from dark.  I am in a light polluted suburb, Bortle 7 (yuck) but should I reduce the gain of the guide camera down from its default at 50?  I also plan to set the exposure to 2 seconds looping.

[Brian Valente]

>>>Dec is currently set to zero.  Ha, ChatGBT says that a zero setting is normal for tracking but can be adjusted if necessary.  If I should get that error message again and it wants Dec increased, what number should I put in there?  Same as RA?  Then put it back to zero when I start to image?

you are taking advice from ChatGPT on settings? well that's a first, but predictably it is not giving good advice here

Your guidespeed for both axis should bet between 0.5x to1.0x (or 7.5 as/sec to 15as/sec). I suggest you set both RA and Dec to the same rate, the higher the better (within that range)

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/open-phd-guiding/d414d625-e72d-42f6-9889-048df1866090n%40googlegroups.com.

[Bruce Waddington]

Please take a closer look at the documentation we sent you about how to configure EQMOD.  I think you're pretty confused about what's going on, the thing you've looking at is a tracking rate, not the speed used for guiding.  Here's what you should be doing:

[bval...@gmail.com]

PS

>>>I just rechecked my guide scope focal length in PhD 2.  It appears correctly as 120mm.  So that wasn't the problem and that setting was in PhD2 2 nights ago.

half your guidelogs you posted were set at 280mm and half were set at 120mm. It would have been helpful to know any changes you are making, or better yet, set up a new profile via the wizard with the correct settings and then don't change it

On Tuesday, June 20, 2023 at 11:47:12 AM UTC-7 pswi...@gmail.com wrote:

[Paul Wilson]

Ha.  Well I figured that mentioning ChatGBT would get a response.  I am aware of that EQMOD page but I hadn't thought to reset it.  

I know my lat/longs are correct in there.  This one you copied shows x0.90 RA and Dec Rates for Pulse Guide Settings.  If those are not equipment specific I will put in those.

Thanks for pointing this out.  This is why I asked for help.  When you encounter a problem you don't always know where to look for the solution.  I asked these questions of others doing astro photography and no one reminded me of this page or EQMOD at all.  Of course I am no expert on EQMOD or PhD2 and I am happy to be informed and corrected by people who know more than I do.

[Brian Valente]

>>>Well I figured that mentioning ChatGBT would get a response.

It's a first that i've seen, i must admit!

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/open-phd-guiding/3833e5d0-ccd9-4edf-abd8-973d32a04119n%40googlegroups.com.

[Paul Wilson]

The ignorant and desperate know no bounds.

In your example above, the pulse rates for both RA and Dec are at .9.  My settings had them at .1.  That's a big difference.  I would have set these up about a year ago using someone's suggested settings and if they had .9 in there, I missed it.  Appreciate it.

My lat/longs are correct.  ChatGPT told me that PhD2 gets its time and date information from the PC itself, and since mine gets connected to the internet, they are correct.

I only have the free version of ChatGBT, and yes it has no guarantees of accuracy.  But it's a fun toy.  My son in law subscribes and he puts engineering work questions to it.  He was excited at the suggestions it made.  I told him to be careful if the company discovers it can pay ChatGBT $20 a month instead of paying him much more.

[Paul Wilson]

I did make a new profile with my new scope and new guide scope.  I started off trying to use the old 50mm guide scope but it wouldn't fit properly on the Epsilon's shorter dovetail.  I will get these details ironed out (not relying on AI apps.)

[Paul Wilson]

It  would have helped if PhD2 had told me I needed "pulse" guide setting increases.  

[Brian Valente]

>>>In your example above, the pulse rates for both RA and Dec are at .9.  My settings had them at .1.

that's one of the biggest problems you had

>>>The ignorant and desperate know no bounds.

;) We all start at ignorant, desperation is optional. I think we all want it to work better and faster than it can take. When it works, it's great. When it doesn't, it's really up to you to go through a process of elimination to find the root cause(s). we can help

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/open-phd-guiding/91501d40-7ff5-4af5-9671-8984db8c23b4n%40googlegroups.com.

[Paul Wilson]

The EQMOD stuff is now corrected with your help on the pulse guide settings.  I made a new profile with different scope and different guide scope.  The correct stuff should be in there and I will double check.

I should have to pay you a consultation fee .

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Paul S. Wilson

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