Why is ontolog-forum moving to Google Groups?

[mkfmncom]

Hello everyone,

This is Matthew M. Kaufman - I occasionally post on the list, and have always been a huge fan of many of you, especially Peter Yim.  I know he managed a lot of the technology infrastructure, and I know that he has retired.  

Why is the list moving to Google Groups?  

I'd think this is a horrible idea, and would like to propose some other methods, perhaps even a phpBB hosted bulletin board, or to at least maintain the current mailing list!!!!  Is there any danger in the old mailing list archives, and / or web content being lost?  If so, I'd like to start a preservation effort to mirror all of this and re-host it.  I can provide major infrastructure and self-hosted server and storage resources in NYC physically in the Financial District, if necessary!

Thanks guys,

Just hate to see another mailing list go into Google Groups.

[Alex Shkotin]

Hello, Matthew!

Please open my mind - what is horrible with google groups? 

Alex

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[Paola Di Maio]

Greetings Matthew

I am a long time Ontolog member, and I am a great fan of intelligent
discourse and enlightened exchanges that (sometimes) take place here,
at the time I joined
the fact that Ontolog was owned and controlled by a single individual
was the main
problem of this community.- to the point that many members stopped
posting and being comfortable collaborating on list precisely because
the situation was intolerable.

You see, there was quite a lot of online bullying and personal abuse
going on that people
could do nothing about, until the list was owned by an individual.
Discourse was often dominated by a few bullyis, and some members felt
unwelcome and abused.

I am delighted to see Ontolog moving to google group, for the following reasons:

1. The resource can now be considered an open mailing list, not owned
by an individual
who handles the group and collectively generated resources as hi
personal property, but owned by its members. Moderation and admin
tasks can be rotated now, as in any decent resectable public community

2. google groups, as a technical platform is FREE (no cost incurrs)
therefre nobody will be able to claim profits and control over the
resource because of red tape and other below the radar administrative
reasons

Lots of other reasons probably

I would however be interested to hear why you think google group
doesnt work for you
You dont list your reasons supporting your preference

I take the opportunity to say HELLOW to Ontolog members, and look
forwared to more enlightened dialog taking place!

PDM

[linforest]

Google is not available in some countires.

Regards,
..Lin
-------- Forwarding messages --------

From: "linforest" <linf...@163.com>
Date: 2015-10-27 15:35:16
To: "[ontolog-forum]" <ontolo...@ontolog.cim3.net>
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Fwd: Why is ontolog-forum moving to Google Groups?

Hi all,

Google is available to most maybe, but not all,  in this world.
Thanks.

..Lin

在 2015-10-27 14:54:54，"mkfmncom" <mkfm...@gmail.com> 写道：

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/ontolog-forum/KdfMdNgOWFs

[Paola Di Maio]

Good point lin

but, which countries? how many members /would be members are from such
countries?

if a very small percentage of membership base is from countries were
google groups are not available, I am afraid it would be unfair for
the rest of us to hold back the long term sustainability of the whole
group just for one or two people.

However we can set up a chat /messag post relay system to a local
mailing list for those member, or come up with another networked
communication workaround that could solve that problem

Please say which members from which countries have a prbblem, and we
can try to address it with some online magic :-)

Everything is possible, as long as we are not constrained by the self
interest of a few

PDM

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[linforest]

At least mine, i.e., China.

.
>To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAMXe%3DSr%2Bvy2Y6ZebBTrwmzw5xDy5a8ox9YfC%3DeCoFn9KL60D_Q%40mail.gmail.com.
>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Paola Di Maio]

It will be nice to live in a world where everybody counts :-)

thanks for flagging this issue, it should be possible to address such
restrictions
by multilevel workaround

does the VPN trick that everybody uses to bypass such restriction not
work in this case?

Hope you agree that the problem is not Google groups, but its China :)

Any chance you could lobby yr government? :)

P

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/d945efa.cad8.150a865e8cc.Coremail.linforest%40163.com.

[Alex Shkotin]

Hi Lin,

is that forbidden or difficult to access google groups in China?

We have some sites blocked in Russia, but I think it's not forbidden to visit them.

Alex

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/d945efa.cad8.150a865e8cc.Coremail.linforest%40163.com.

[linforest]

Hi Alex,

Forbidden, even for Google Scholar. And Google was out from here for quite a while. Almost forgotten by me now :)

Thanks

..Lin

[Christopher Menzel]

If moving the list to Google Groups means excluding Chinese (and other) interested participants, it is obvious that the list should either not be moved or moved to a host that is universally accessible.

-chris

[Amanda Vizedom]

Hi Lin,

Clarificatory question:  can you not visit the group on the web and not receive or send email to/from it? Or is it only the web functions that are blocked for you?

I'm guessing that only the web functions are blocked, since it seems that this conversation is occurring only through the group (I have added ontolog-forum@ontolog.cim3.net to the recipients; please continue to copy the old list for now, folks, as not everyone has been added to the group yet).  But I am only guessing, and would appreciate your answer. 

Best,

Amanda

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/1edf9cba.1395e.150a95e8e3d.Coremail.linforest%40163.com.

[joel luis carbonera]

I totally agree with Chris.

Best regards.

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[Rich Cooper]

The concern I have about Google Groups is that Google reads and processes those emails as a matter of research about market segmentation all the way down to the person.  So traffic analysis of opinions related to threads and keywords, for example, could be correlated against participant email addresses. 

 

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?  We should consider that issue for a couple of breaths at least. 

 

Alternatively, GoDaddy is a well run, fairly cheap ISP without other market goals SFAIK.  I have no idea of the volume and size of this onto list, but I bet that cost could be found within the group.  This is a pretty high content to blather list, so it's likely we could solicit donors or grants for such trivial amounts. 

 

So in essence, I agree with Chris. 

 

Sincerely,

Rich Cooper,

Rich Cooper,

 

Chief Technology Officer,

MetaSemantics Corporation

MetaSemantics AT EnglishLogicKernel DOT com

( 9 4 9 ) 5 2 5-5 7 1 2

http://www.EnglishLogicKernel.com

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CALqyLEfKJOu4uGdAThY6rZTdbgcFem3tNDO0%2BOw%3DF__cDjz40A%40mail.gmail.com.

[Amanda Vizedom]

[I have added ontolo...@ontolog.cim3.net to the recipients list, as not all members have been added to the new Google Group yet.]

All,

Last month, I made a brief survey of alternatives on behalf of the Ontolog Trustees, then recommended that we opt for a Google Group. I'm also handling the migration. So, I'll try to give an explanation of that decision and action.  

First, it's important to realize that it has been over a year since we started working on migrating infrastructure in light of Peter Yim's retirement. Closer to a year and a half, really.  There have been technical and resource bottlenecks, especially with the migration of the Wiki. Some other solutions turned out not to be as good, reliable, cheap or free, fast, or other otherwise workable as initially thought. Peter has extended his support very much longer than initially intended or promised, but this couldn't continue. For one thing, he will soon be unavailable for an extended period of time. For another, CIM no longer has other resources (such as people) to throw into support; this showed in the recent list outage (due to malicious activities, in August?) that lasted longer than it would have in prior years. All things told, we had a month to get our lists moved to some other host and mechanism. The backup plan was that if we weren't able to find a better solution and implement it in that time, Peter would move things to the free Yahoo!Groups platform for the time being and hand us the keys before he goes traveling. 

I compiled a list of requirements and desiderata, from the Trustees September conversation and from others over the past year+. The list appears below. The bottom line is that the free Google Groups platform offered the best matching, meeting all of our hard requirements and many of our desiderata. That said, we did not know about lack of access in China, which we will need to find out more about. And I, frankly, just assumed global access, both as a requirement (implicit, and so not on my list) and as a fact (about Google Groups).  We will still need to go to the Google Group for the time being, as CIM support will soon be unavailable. If we need to find a different solution, we'll need more time to find and implement it 

Best,

Amanda

Desiderata for new infrastructure supporting ontolog forum discussion and other current mailing lists:

• Members can use email to read +++++

• Members can use email to post and reply +++++

• Members can view and search archives on web   ++++

• Migration of lists can be accomplished before end of October 2015 +++++

• Members can select posts and replies to view by thread ++++

• Members can use web browser to post and reply +++

• Manageable learning curve for members, low barrier to entry    ++++

• Additional options for receiving / reading posts and replies (email digest, RSS or Atom feeds, by topic or by message, etc.) which individual members can access and control for themselves  ++

• Email service is reliable (and has own, dedicated support) +++++

• Archives service is reliable (and has own, dedicated support) +++++

• Use is compatible with Ontolog’s Open IPR policy. +++++

• Members can upvote or downvote posts and replies (complements limited moderation, helps readers find most useful content in archives) ++

• Additional options for organizing posts and replies (tagging, categories, etc.) ++

• Subscription / unsubscription are easily done by members or administrators, depending on configurable settings (e.g., may require admin to sub but member can unsub). ++++

• Admins can block a user +++++

• Additional options/mechanisms for control of spam/abuse and removal of abusive content (by admins and/or members) +++

• Manageable learning curve for admins, low barrier to shared/changing duties   +++

• Minimal requirements for maintenance by Ontolog volunteers (e.g., lags in individual availability should not result in substantial outages) +++++

• No cost ++++,  or

• at workst, very, very low cost (such that it could be met, easily and rapidly, by member contribution) +++++

• All aspects of management can be handled by a small number of volunteer admins, without much burden +++++

• Feed options that facilitate potential additional archiving and/or integration with other infrastructure (such as Wiki) +++

Plus, as background, considerations mentioned in various conversations started last year (see, e.g., http://ontolog-02.cim3.net/wiki/FutureOntologInfrastructure and the email thread starting with http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/2015-01/msg00077.html), though these generated very little discussion or interest).

[Matthew Kaufman]

It's simply horrible.  The interface is horrible, and it locks all of our email into a non-standard or open or retrievable format.  

I believe the list was normally hosted via Mailman (v2).  Now v3 is coming out and has a huge roadmap of awesome features for it - https://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/features.html.  It has been the standard on the Internet, forever.

More on Mailman 3 here - http://wiki.list.org/DEV/Mailman%203.0

[Matthew Kaufman]

Hyperkitty is a project to archive old mailman lists: http://hyperkitty.readthedocs.org/en/latest/ it includes a frontend also.

http://wiki.list.org/HyperKitty/DevelopmentSetupGuide

--

http://wiki.list.org/DEV/Postorius%20Web%20Interface

New frontend for Mailman3

https://gitlab.com/mailman/postorius

On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 3:36 AM, Alex Shkotin <alex.s...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Matthew Kaufman]

Paola,

Judging by your perspective on this matter, all I can say is ... you're not from the USA, are you.

[Matthew Kaufman]

The self interest of a few is why Ontolog exists, IMO.. That's why I'm here.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAMXe%3DSr%2Bvy2Y6ZebBTrwmzw5xDy5a8ox9YfC%3DeCoFn9KL60D_Q%40mail.gmail.com.

[Matthew Kaufman]

Wow.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAMXe%3DSqSOjchVqN_7%3D12MdxzAduxcXBX2MCffQFawttTnq%2BrFQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Matthew Kaufman]

Yes - I agree 10,000% 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/04ac01d110d6%2476d74440%246485ccc0%24%40com.

[David James]

GoDaddy leaves a lot to be desired.

Checkout LibreList as a good option for OSS mailing list.

Sequential conversations leave a lot to be desired. We are participating in a deliberative anti-pattern here. :)

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAAKrFTzFnUbMan%2B0j61e_i%3DfWaaHeB5YK_EqHa0X4%3DWxoS4BBQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Paola Di Maio]

Amanda

I ll forward you separately the email exchange I am having with LIn to
understand the local constraint. Although he has not posted much in
the past, Lin can receive emails from the group, but not post.

This should be fixable with a simple email relay (an email forwarder
essentially) that enables Lin to post via a third party account - this
could be an automated email forwardr
or a human who acts as bridge so that he can post also.

Another mechanism to reach to members in China would be to create a
local Ontolog forum using a local platform, and simply cc both forums
on emails, or having emails posted to one also forwarded to the other.

Let me know if you need any input in devising a workaround , I have
architected some distributed systems with similar challenges

PDM

> -

>
> Members can use email to read +++++

> -

>
> Members can use email to post and reply +++++

> -

>
> Members can view and search archives on web ++++

> -

>
> Migration of lists can be accomplished before end of October 2015 +++++

> -

>
> Members can select posts and replies to view by thread ++++

> -

>
> Members can use web browser to post and reply +++

> -

>
> Manageable learning curve for members, low barrier to entry ++++

> -

>
> Additional options for receiving / reading posts and replies (email
> digest, RSS or Atom feeds, by topic or by message, etc.) which
> individual
> members can access and control for themselves ++

> -

>
> Email service is reliable (and has own, dedicated support) +++++

> -

>
> Archives service is reliable (and has own, dedicated support) +++++

> -

>
> Use is compatible with Ontolog’s Open IPR policy. +++++

> -

>
> Members can upvote or downvote posts and replies (complements limited
> moderation, helps readers find most useful content in archives) ++

> -

>
> Additional options for organizing posts and replies (tagging,
> categories, etc.) ++

> -

>
> Subscription / unsubscription are easily done by members or
> administrators, depending on configurable settings (e.g., may require
> admin
> to sub but member can unsub). ++++

> -

>
> Admins can block a user +++++

> -

>
> Additional options/mechanisms for control of spam/abuse and removal of
> abusive content (by admins and/or members) +++

> -

>
> Manageable learning curve for admins, low barrier to shared/changing
> duties +++

> -

>
> Minimal requirements for maintenance by Ontolog volunteers (e.g., lags
> in individual availability should not result in substantial outages)
> +++++

> -
>
> No cost ++++, or
> -

>
> at workst, very, very low cost (such that it could be met, easily and
> rapidly, by member contribution) +++++

> -

>
> All aspects of management can be handled by a small number of volunteer
> admins, without much burden +++++

> -

>
> Feed options that facilitate potential additional archiving and/or
> integration with other infrastructure (such as Wiki) +++
>
>
> Plus, as background, considerations mentioned in various conversations
> started last year (see, e.g.,
> http://ontolog-02.cim3.net/wiki/FutureOntologInfrastructure and the email
> thread starting with
> http://ontolog.cim3.net/forum/ontolog-forum/2015-01/msg00077.html), though
> these generated very little discussion or interest).
>

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> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/CAEmngXsNr9mt5vQyEwriUAvNZ6B-FDokXhE9FbEygL8Ss7hJYQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Kenneth Fields]

greetings from Beijing.

A VPN is just a requirement of working in china and inexpensive -

as necessary as an ethernet cable.

However, not hearing from you guys for a very long time, why 

not move onto a next generation (federated/decentralized) based ipv6 microblog -

like gnusocial.

Ken

Kenneth Fields, Ph.D.

Professor Computer Music

CEMC - China Electronic Music Center

Central Conservatory of Music

43 BaoJia Street

Beijing 100031 China,

Email: k...@ccom.edu.cn

http://syneme.ccom.edu.cn

Tel:    13701188130

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[Frank Guerino]

Sorry for the simplistic question but members subscribe to Google Groups with non-Google email addresses?

My Best,

Frank

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[Alex Shkotin]

And why we can't see members of the group like here

?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/D2602395.131A3B%25Frank.Guerino%40if4it.com.

[Amanda Vizedom]

Frank, 

Yes, members may subscribe using non-Google email addresses. In fact, most members are subscribed in this way. 

No Google email address is needed for membership, for receiving group posts as email, or for posting to the group via email.  

On the other hand, in order to use the web interface and functions, members do need to have a a Google sign-in account. This does mean that they need to create a Google account and sign in with it when using web functions. 

Even in this case, though, members do not need to use a Google email address. A member who has a Google sign-in account can associate any email address with that account (more than one, in fact). If they do this, their Group membership can use their preferred email address. They can also then use their Google sign-in account to access the Group web functions, and they will be recognized as a member based on the association between that sign-in and the address that has membership in the group. 

Best,

Amanda

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/D2602395.131A3B%25Frank.Guerino%40if4it.com.

[Frank Guerino]

Great info!  Thanks for the very detailed response.

FG

--
Frank Guerino, Chairman
The International Foundation for Information Technology (IF4IT)
http://www.if4it.com
1.908.294.5191 (M)

[user2]

For the open minded, who do believe in Google’s largesse and don’t believe that Google monetizes personal data by selling to organizations who want to manipulate opinions and purchases, there is nothing wrong with google groups.

James

[user2]

It takes a brain to see evil in Google.

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[Tolk, Andreas]

Google Groups is very easy to work with. I used it to compile and coordinate a book some time ago. The book was not even in a printed version on the market when the first pdf pirate copies emerged. I know the plagiarism is a special from of academic recognition as well, but neither I nor my publisher were very happy.  Can be that this is a complete coincidence and has nothing to do with Google Groups, but I decided to avoid them whenever possible ...

Happy Thanksgiving

Andreas

==================== ;-)
Andreas Tolk, Ph.D.
Computer Science Principal, MITRE, Hampton VA
Adjunct Professor, Old Dominion University, Norfolk, VA

---

From: ontolo...@googlegroups.com <ontolo...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of user2 <jas...@ifn.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 1:46 PM
To: Alex Shkotin
Cc: mkfmncom; ontolog-forum

Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Why is ontolog-forum moving to Google Groups?

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[Duane Nickull]

I have never found anything wrong with Google Groups. I think it is a bit of a stretch to state that google Groups are evil.  Google has no intent with the groups other than to own the URL associated with unique content.

I guess the “just keep telling people we are not evil” mantra is wearing off a bit but consider their intent. Is it their intent to monetize data? Possibly. Is that a fair trade in exchange for paying for the infrastructure for Groups, the hosting costs and assuming all the administration IT needs?  Possibly.  That being said, if they were truly evil, people would stop using them in droves.

YAMMV but I find them relatively harmless.

Cheers

Duane

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[user2]

To answer the question, "Is it their intent to monetize data?” with the word "Possibly.” is possibly a bit naive.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ontolog-forum/D27BCBC8.408933%25dnickull%40hottomali.com.