Re: [DIRT] Pung v. Isabella County

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SM A

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Mar 18, 2026, 11:14:35 AMMar 18

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Just had chat with someone who does not want to be identified. "They" said two things immediately. 1 if this case finds for Pung it would make it possible for any owner who wants to cash out to simply stop paying their taxes. And 2 the Pung argument could really mess up things in bankruptcy courts.

Why scotus took this is troubling. If not too late can DIRT lawyers team up and file an amicus brief? Maybe NY can add to their brief.

Sheila Anderson

On Mon, Mar 16, 2026, 4:51 PM SM A <cps...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks. Read part of the transcript, became impatient, and went back to hiding as storm arrived here and lightning was right overhead. Now storm is gone but irritation with transcript is not. " Fair market value" is a concept NOT in stone. That idea can and does change with the beholder. All of the what if's are the norm according to each different person. SO in addition to delinquent taxes what are the banking implications? Seems as if the store rule is in order - if you break it, you have to buy it. If you fail to pay your debt you are not entitled to profit, at least from my perspective. The end! I am going to cook something, heat up kitchen as winter temperatures return for this week. If I could wrap up scotus and deliver to anyone who wants them, I would.

Sheila

Sheila

On Mon, Mar 16, 2026, 1:55 PM Dwight Merriam <dwight...@gmail.com> wrote:
It's complicated. This will help in getting a fuller understanding of the case, Pung's position, and PLFs advocacy.

https://www.inversecondemnation.com/?s=pung

The fundamental issue is, what is just compensation?

Regards,
Dwight Merriam
80 Latimer Lane
Weatogue, CT 06089
860-463-7233

On Mon, Mar 16, 2026 at 10:27 AM SM A <cps...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hope with current scotus is like a wing and a prayer. Mostly scary.

What the scotusblog long list of submissions is the absence of individual states. New York, New Jersey, Michigan are all that I spotted. The absences are troubling unless they are all in one of the groups. Imo there is no logic to the plea for it would/could/should bankrupt local govt.

Sheila

On Mon, Mar 16, 2026, 6:16 AM <mus...@mc.net> wrote:
You are right it is a pandora box. But remember at the bottom of the box, there was one thing --HOPE.

On Sun, 15 Mar 2026 17:02:32 -0400, SM A <cps...@GMAIL.COM> wrote:

I really hope you are correct. Notwithstanding all political pressure to get rid of residential taxation, not just in Fla, effectively taxes are payments for services. Just as a mortgage is a kind of benefit provided to borrower. If a lender seeks to foreclose, typically the sums in arrears are nothing close to total value. AND ad valorem "values" always are in arrears. In some states those numbers may not be revised for years. In many places, the amounts are small percentages of the whole, especially where there also is state income tax. SO looks like Pandora's box.

I am curious to know whether local head of delinquent taxes in this county is aware of the case. I sent the DIRT message to him and am sure he will answer me tomorrow. If states lose this one, will put a big hole in Clerk's budgets too because it seems unlikely tax deed bidders would want to match PAs values as opening bids. I know I would not even though many bidders do go up and over but it is because they do not know local market or have not done their homework but mostly that crazyiness is on land.

Sheila Anderson

On Sun, Mar 15, 2026, 3:17 PM Tyler Epstein <epst...@gmail.com> wrote:

This will be ruled on in favor of the state. The state is not in the business of maximizing anything, but bureaucracy. The govt has to be efficient; efficient means auction.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 15, 2026, at 12:55 PM, SM A <cps...@gmail.com> wrote:

Wow! Seems to me another side to this is excessive windfall to a delinquent owner who opts to not pay and then reaps the benefits, if any, of full market value after satilisfying tax debt. I know limited but instances where not paying in order to receive the benefits of overages which, around here, are common for certain properties. And will their decision be retroactive? Not to mention what is the impact, if any, on bidders at certificate auctions?

Sheila Anderson

On Sun, Mar 15, 2026, 11:43 AM <mus...@mc.net> wrote:

The tax foreclosure issue is not dead. This case was just argued before the Supreme Court. See: https://www.hklaw.com/en/insights/media-entities/2026/02/podcast-pung-v-isabella-county and https://www.youtube.com/live/0s70QWhgMKg

Caroline Zoes

Pung v. Isabella County is a landmark 2026 U.S. Supreme Court case that is unique because it addresses the "how" of "just compensation" in tax foreclosures, moving beyond previous rulings to determine whether the Constitution requires property owners to be paid the fair market value of their home, rather than just the lower "surplus proceeds" from a forced auction.
Nelson Mullins +1

It is considered a critical follow-up to Tyler v. Hennepin County (2023), specifically tackling the following:

Valuation Standards ("Home Equity Theft"): While Tyler established that governments cannot keep surplus equity, Pung tests whether "just compensation" means receiving the actual fair market value of the property ($194,000 in this case) or only the amount the county sold it for at a depressed auction ($76,000).

Excessive Fines Argument: The case argues that seizing a $194,000+ home to satisfy a relatively small, contested tax debt of roughly $2,200 violates the Eighth Amendment’s excessive fines clause.

Foreclosure Despite No Debt: In this specific case, the taxpayer claimed the tax debt was never actually owed, as an administrative law judge had previously ruled in Pung’s favor before the county proceeded with the foreclosure anyway.

National Impact: The decision is expected to establish a national standard for how takings doctrine applies in forced-sale contexts, potentially forcing states to reform their tax foreclosure statutes to prevent "windfalls" to governments and investors.
SCOTUSblog +3

The case was heard by the Supreme Court on February 25, 2026.

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Lewette Fielding

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Mar 19, 2026, 7:55:44 PMMar 19

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It would be simple for any municipality to have an appraisal of any property and set a floor for bids at these auctions. The cost of the appraisal could be added to the amount due from the owner. The auction floor could be a price within 15% of the FMV of the appraisal. This would ensure fairness.

To be frank, most failures to pay real estate taxes are attributable to older homeowners without mortgages (banks step in to pay the taxes prior to foreclosure). I recall a matter in which a 90 year old owner lost her home in Long Island due to dementia. And, another case where the home was a seasonal second home and the owner overlooked a bill for fire services (billed separately from real estate taxes) which was sent to the second home address- also in NY State.

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SM A

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Mar 19, 2026, 8:13:45 PMMar 19

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The other comment was: "put 4 appraisers in a room, and you will get 4 different opinions of value all of which will be correct".

That said one of the comments I read in something was an objection to auctions.

I liked the NY brief.

Sheila Anderson, former New Yorker.

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lfielding

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Mar 20, 2026, 10:39:42 AMMar 20

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Appraisals can and are typically “averaged” by lenders. Use of appraisals would be an approximation of “fairness” and an equitable outcome. This is not difficult to implement by any state or municipality. Why should the government deliberately set out to be an instrument of inequity and injustice when the recipients have done nothing more than fail to pay taxes through inadvertence or senility or poverty?

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SM A

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Mar 20, 2026, 11:35:02 AMMar 20

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So govt is NOT deliberately going after folks any more than lenders are. I agree with someone who said, if scotus finds for the plaintiff, no one will ever have to "sell" their property ever again. If they want to cash out, or move, or dispose of it, all they will need to do is stop paying their taxes and wait. I doubt the Realtors and the title companies and everyone else who is invested in the transmission of real estate in a business context will like that hypothetical. There are many consequences to the whole idea of what I consider to be a "free lunch" not to mention that it could very well bankrupt a gift so there go all the services. IMO taxes are like loans - you get an ongoing benefit. And if you do not like how the benefit is provided or the cost, you can vote against the decision makers, and you can run for office, and you can rally other folks to do the same. The current system is not without recourse. But if you buy something, imo, ethics 101 suggests you ought to pay for it, and not be entitled to benefit from your failure to uphold your part of the bargain.

SMA

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mus...@mc.net

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Mar 20, 2026, 12:15:50 PMMar 20

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Agreed.

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lfielding

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Mar 26, 2026, 7:57:13 PM (10 days ago) Mar 26

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Unsure how having one’s home sold at a foreclosure sale is a “free lunch”. If the property is unsaleable in the open market, the appraisals will reflect that reality with a very low appraisal price. The costs of the foreclosure including the appraisal will be paid by the foreclosure proceeds. And at least in the municipalities I am familiar with it is hardly a “quick” sale taking at least 18 months to complete.

The owner doesn’t benefit by a forced sale by the municipality. Nor are real estate taxes a “loan”, they can go up and increase for any reason. Non payment of taxes are typically associated with older owners who have no mortgage and are either improverished or senile; and I am unsure why it is necessary to punish those who are unfortunate enough to lose their homes because of poverty, senility or illness. The municipality will get the taxes as well as penalties and interest so that it will not lose any funds by making an effort to sell the property at fair market value.

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SM A

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Mar 27, 2026, 9:37:36 AM (9 days ago) Mar 27

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There are some other factors. Not all owners are older or impoverished. Some are quite capable but trying to get away with gaming the system or profit more than others or simply ignoring notices.

BUT there also is the reality that someone else may have to pay to cover the deficit. What if govt acquires title and the property is destroyed before it can be sold. Hurricane, tornado, fire come to mind. Who pays then? Why can't the delinquent owner sell it themselves and spare govt the expense of covering its budget so we - you, me, all of us - continue to receive the services we rely upon and pay for?

What about irs liens, bankruptcy courts, mortgages?

IMO the real impacts are more widespread and complicated than advocated in the argument I read.

So as a former native New Yorker hopefully with some of that mindset still, I question why scotus took the case in the first place. But then many of their decisions open Pandora's box.

Sheila Anderson

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lfielding

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Mar 27, 2026, 7:06:26 PM (9 days ago) Mar 27

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Property taxes are a small percentage of the FMV of the property; so that in the event of a natural disaster prior to the sale, the remaining land value will satisfy the municipality’s lien. In the that the sale doesn’t satisfy the debt, the owner remains obligated for the balance due.

In my county annual property taxes are less than 1 percent of the FMV. I’m not sure why anyone would believe that the loss of property and a home is “gaming the system” particularly as property taxes are a small percentage of property value. It seems that governmental actions should be fair and equitable as much as reasonably possible and not a device to punish citizens with the loss of any equity in the home for non-payment of relatively small amounts. That is what happened to the plaintiff in the Supreme Court case.

On Fri, Mar 27, 2026 at 9:37 AM SM A <cps...@gmail.com> wrote:

There are some other factors. Not all owners are older or impoverished. Some are quite capable but trying to get away with gaming the system or profit more than others or simply ignoring notices.

BUT there also is the reality that someone else may have to pay to cover the deficit. What if govt acquires title and the property is destroyed before it can be sold. Hurricane, tornado, fire come to mind. Who pays then? Why can't the delinquent owner sell it themselves and spare govt the expense of covering its budget so we - you, me, all of us - continue to receive the services we rely upon and pay for?

What about irs liens, bankruptcy courts, mortgages?e question is whether the

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SM A

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Mar 28, 2026, 9:42:55 AM (8 days ago) Mar 28

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But your county is not necessarily the standard for the rest of the country. There are for example some states which do not impose income taxes on individuals, so other sources of revenue represent different percentages of costs. Other states may impose ad valorem taxes on personal property. Sources of revenue and their percentages are all over the map.

In other words, one size does not fit all.

In my county, the elected officials now are getting around to consideration of long standing state standards that provide relief for hardships, but give each county discretion. Sadly, the help has been there for legitimate folks but their elected representatives have failed to adopt them. Should not need scotus to remedy that reality.

Without knowing ALL the laws governing all levels of alleged hardships, and scotus does not, then again the generalities do not, imo, match the actual realities. I ssay scotus does not because there is a glaring absence of amicus briefs representing this state or others in the south.

Sheila Anderson

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lfielding

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Mar 28, 2026, 10:26:11 AM (8 days ago) Mar 28

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Interesting. Brookings and Tax Foundation state that taxes as a US percentage of property values range from .5 to 1.0 percent with outlier states like NJ at 2 percent. In any event no state would permit property tax arrears to accumulate so much that the amount exceeds more than 5 percent of property value. The issue here is whether government should act appropriately in auctioning off property so as to not wreak injustice and destroy whatever equity is left after auction.

States are considering lowering property values due to owners incomes being unable to absorb increased property taxes thereby forcing them to sell or move.

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mus...@mc.net

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Mar 28, 2026, 3:32:19 PM (8 days ago) Mar 28

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1. In regards to elderly who cannot pay: Illinois seniors (65+) who
cannot pay property taxes can utilize the Senior Citizens Real Estate Tax
Deferral Program, which acts as a loan against their home to pay taxes.
Additional relief includes the Senior Citizen Assessment Freeze (income
$65,000-$75,000+) and the Senior Citizens Homestead Exemption, which reduce
tax liability.

2. In regards to establishing the FMV each state has
their own rules. E.g, The Florida Constitution's (Article VII, §4) limits
annual increases in the assessed value of homestead-exempt properties to a
maximum of 3% or the percentage change in the Consumer Price Index (CPI),
whichever is lower. This cap applies to the assessed value, not the market
value.

Then California's Proposition 13 (passed in 1978) is a law that
strictly limits how much property taxes can increase on homes and
commercial properties in California. It acts as a cap, protecting
homeowners from sky-high tax bills when their home's market value shoots
up. The Cap: Your assessed value (the value used to calculate tax) cannot
increase by more than 2% per year, even if your house doubles in value on
the market.

Caroline Zoes

On Sat, 28 Mar 2026 10:22:26 -0400, lfielding
wrote: Interesting. Brookings and Tax Foundation state that taxes as a US

percentage of property values range from .5 to 1.0 percent with outlier
states like NJ at 2 percent. In any event no state would permit property
tax arrears to accumulate so much that the amount exceeds more than 5
percent of property value. The issue here is whether government should act
appropriately in auctioning off property so as to not wreak injustice and
destroy whatever equity is left after auction. States are considering
lowering property values due to owners incomes being unable to absorb
increased property taxes thereby forcing them to sell or move.
On Sat,

Mar 28, 2026 at 9:42 AM SM A wrote: But your county is not necessarily

the standard for the rest of the country. There are for example some states
which do not impose income taxes on individuals, so other sources of
revenue represent different percentages of costs. Other states may impose
ad valorem taxes on personal property. Sources of revenue and their
percentages are all over the map. In other words, one size does not fit
all. In my county, the elected officials now are getting around to
consideration of long standing state standards that provide relief for
hardships, but give each county discretion. Sadly, the help has been there
for legitimate folks but their elected representatives have failed to adopt
them. Should not need scotus to remedy that reality. Without knowing ALL
the laws governing all levels of alleged hardships, and scotus does not,
then again the generalities do not, imo, match the actual realities. I ssay
scotus does not because there is a glaring absence of amicus briefs
representing this state or others in the south. Sheila Anderson

On Fri, Mar 27, 2026, 7:06 PM lfielding wrote: Property taxes are a small

percentage of the FMV of the property; so that in the event of a natural
disaster prior to the sale, the remaining land value will satisfy the
municipality's lien. In the that the sale doesn't satisfy the debt, the
owner remains obligated for the balance due. In my county annual
property taxes are less than 1 percent of the FMV. I'm not sure why anyone
would believe that the loss of property and a home is "gaming the system"
particularly as property taxes are a small percentage of property value. It
seems that governmental actions should be fair and equitable as much as
reasonably possible and not a device to punish citizens with the loss of
any equity in the home for non-payment of relatively small amounts. That is
what happened to the plaintiff in the Supreme Court case.
On Fri,

Mar 27, 2026 at 9:37 AM SM A wrote: There are some other factors. Not all

owners are older or impoverished. Some are quite capable but trying to get
away with gaming the system or profit more than others or simply ignoring
notices. BUT there also is the reality that someone else may have to pay
to cover the deficit. What if govt acquires title and the property is
destroyed before it can be sold. Hurricane, tornado, fire come to mind. Who
pays then? Why can't the delinquent owner sell it themselves and spare govt
the expense of covering its budget so we - you, me, all of us - continue to
receive the services we rely upon and pay for? What about irs liens,
bankruptcy courts, mortgages?e question is whether the IMO the real
impacts are more widespread and complicated than advocated in the argument
I read. So as a former native New Yorker hopefully with some of that
mindset still, I question why scotus took the case in the first place. But
then many of their decisions open Pandora's box. Sheila Anderson

On Thu, Mar 26, 2026, 7:57 PM lfielding wrote: Unsure how having one's

home sold at a foreclosure sale is a "free lunch". If the property is
unsaleable in the open market, the appraisals will reflect that reality
with a very low appraisal price. The costs of the foreclosure including the
appraisal will be paid by the foreclosure proceeds. And at least in the
municipalities I am familiar with it is hardly a "quick" sale taking at
least 18 months to complete. The owner doesn't benefit by a forced sale
by the municipality. Nor are real estate taxes a "loan", they can go up and
increase for any reason. Non payment of taxes are typically associated with
older owners who have no mortgage and are either improverished or senile;
and I am unsure why it is necessary to punish those who are unfortunate
enough to lose their homes because of poverty, senility or illness. The
municipality will get the taxes as well as penalties and interest so that
it will not lose any funds by making an effort to sell the property at fair
market value.
On Fri, Mar 20, 2026 at 12:15 PM

wrote:

Agreed.
-------------------------

On Fri, 20 Mar 2026 11:28:38

-0400, SM A wrote: So govt is NOT deliberately going after folks any more

than lenders are. I agree with someone who said, if scotus finds for the
plaintiff, no one will ever have to "sell" their property ever again. If
they want to cash out, or move, or dispose of it, all they will need to do
is stop paying their taxes and wait. I doubt the Realtors and the title
companies and everyone else who is invested in the transmission of real
estate in a business context will like that hypothetical. There are many
consequences to the whole idea of what I consider to be a "free lunch" not
to mention that it could very well bankrupt a gift so there go all the
services. IMO taxes are like loans - you get an ongoing benefit. And if you
do not like how the benefit is provided or the cost, you can vote against
the decision makers, and you can run for office, and you can rally other
folks to do the same. The current system is not without recourse. But if
you buy something, imo, ethics 101 suggests you ought to pay for it, and
not be entitled to benefit from your failure to uphold your part of the
bargain. SMA

On Fri, Mar 20, 2026 at 10:39 AM lfielding wrote:
Appraisals can and are typically "averaged" by lenders. Use of appraisals
would be an approximation of "fairness" and an equitable outcome. This is
not difficult to implement by any state or municipality. Why should the
government deliberately set out to be an instrument of inequity and
injustice when the recipients have done nothing more than fail to pay taxes
through inadvertence or senility or poverty?
On Thu, Mar 19, 2026 at

8:13 PM SM A wrote: The other comment was: "put 4 appraisers in a room,

and you will get 4 different opinions of value all of which will be
correct". That said one of the comments I read in something was an
objection to auctions. I liked the NY brief. Sheila Anderson, former
New Yorker.
On Thu, Mar 19, 2026, 7:55 PM 'Lewette Fielding' via

nyclarealprop wrote: It would be simple for any municipality to have

an appraisal of any property and set a floor for bids at these auctions.
The cost of the appraisal could be added to the amount due from the owner.
The auction floor could be a price within 15% of the FMV of the appraisal.
This would ensure fairness. To be frank, most failures to pay real
estate taxes are attributable to older homeowners without mortgages (banks
step in to pay the taxes prior to foreclosure). I recall a matter in which
a 90 year old owner lost her home in Long Island due to dementia. And,
another case where the home was a seasonal second home and the owner
overlooked a bill for fire services (billed separately from real estate
taxes) which was sent to the second home address- also in NY State.

On Wednesday, March 18, 2026 at 11:14:31 AM EDT, SM A wrote: Just

had chat with someone who does not want to be identified. "They" said two
things immediately. 1 if this case finds for Pung it would make it possible
for any owner who wants to cash out to simply stop paying their taxes. And
2 the Pung argument could really mess up things in bankruptcy courts. Why
scotus took this is troubling. If not too late can DIRT lawyers team up and
file an amicus brief? Maybe NY can add to their brief. Sheila Anderson

On Mon, Mar 16, 2026, 4:51 PM SM A wrote: Thanks. Read part of the

transcript, became impatient, and went back to hiding as storm arrived here
and lightning was right overhead. Now storm is gone but irritation with
transcript is not. " Fair market value" is a concept NOT in stone. That
idea can and does change with the beholder. All of the what if's are the
norm according to each different person. SO in addition to delinquent taxes
what are the banking implications? Seems as if the store rule is in order -
if you break it, you have to buy it. If you fail to pay your debt you are
not entitled to profit, at least from my perspective. The end! I am going
to cook something, heat up kitchen as winter temperatures return for this
week. If I could wrap up scotus and deliver to anyone who wants them, I
would. Sheila
Sheila
On Mon, Mar 16, 2026, 1:55 PM Dwight Merriam

wrote: It's complicated. This will help in getting a fuller understanding
of the case, Pung's position, and PLFs advocacy.

https://www.inversecondemnation.com/?s=pung [13] The fundamental issue
is, what is just compensation? Regards, Dwight Merriam Weatogue, CT
06089 [14]

860-463-7233
On Mon, Mar 16, 2026 at 10:27 AM SM A

wrote: Hope with current scotus is like a wing and a prayer. Mostly scary.
What the scotusblog long list of submissions is the absence of individual
states. New York, New Jersey, Michigan are all that I spotted. The absences
are troubling unless they are all in one of the groups. Imo there is no
logic to the plea for it would/could/should bankrupt local govt. Sheila

On Mon, Mar 16, 2026, 6:16 AM wrote:

You are right it is a pandora
box. But remember at the bottom of the box, there was one thing --HOPE.

-------------------------

On Sun, 15 Mar 2026 17:02:32 -0400, SM A

wrote: I really hope you are correct. Notwithstanding all political
pressure to get rid of residential taxation, not just in Fla, effectively
taxes are payments for services. Just as a mortgage is a kind of benefit
provided to borrower. If a lender seeks to foreclose, typically the sums in
arrears are nothing close to total value. AND ad valorem "values" always
are in arrears. In some states those numbers may not be revised for years.
In many places, the amounts are small percentages of the whole, especially
where there also is state income tax. SO looks like Pandora's box. I am
curious to know whether local head of delinquent taxes in this county is
aware of the case. I sent the DIRT message to him and am sure he will
answer me tomorrow. If states lose this one, will put a big hole in Clerk's
budgets too because it seems unlikely tax deed bidders would want to match
PAs values as opening bids. I know I would not even though many bidders do
go up and over but it is because they do not know local market or have not
done their homework but mostly that crazyiness is on land. Sheila
Anderson

On Sun, Mar 15, 2026, 3:17 PM Tyler Epstein wrote: This will

be ruled on in favor of the state. The state is not in the business of
maximizing anything, but bureaucracy. The govt has to be efficient;
efficient means auction.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 15, 2026, at

12:55 PM, SM A wrote:

Wow! Seems to me another side to this is
excessive windfall to a delinquent owner who opts to not pay and then reaps
the benefits, if any, of full market value after satilisfying tax debt. I
know limited but instances where not paying in order to receive the
benefits of overages which, around here, are common for certain properties.
And will their decision be retroactive? Not to mention what is the impact,
if any, on bidders at certificate auctions? Sheila Anderson
On Sun,

Mar 15, 2026, 11:43 AM wrote: The tax foreclosure issue is not dead. This

case was just argued before the Supreme Court. See:
https://www.hklaw.com/en/insights/media-entities/2026/02/podcast-pung-v-isabella-county

[21] and https://www.youtube.com/live/0s70QWhgMKg [22] Caroline Zoes
_Pung v. Isabella County_ is a landmark 2026 U.S. Supreme Court case that

is unique because it addresses the "how" of "just compensation" in tax
foreclosures, moving beyond previous rulings to determine whether the
Constitution requires property owners to be paid the fair market value of
their home, rather than just the lower "surplus proceeds" from a forced

auction. Nelson Mullins +1 It is considered a critical follow-up to
_Tyler v. Hennepin County_ (2023), specifically tackling the following:

* Valuation Standards ("Home Equity Theft"): While _Tyler_ established
that governments cannot keep surplus equity, _Pung_ tests whether "just

compensation" means receiving the actual fair market value of the property
($194,000 in this case) or only the amount the county sold it for at a
depressed auction ($76,000).

* Excessive Fines Argument: The case argues

that seizing a $194,000+ home to satisfy a relatively small, contested tax
debt of roughly $2,200 violates the Eighth Amendment's excessive fines
clause.

* Foreclosure Despite No Debt: In this specific case, the

taxpayer claimed the tax debt was never actually owed, as an administrative
law judge had previously ruled in Pung's favor before the county proceeded
with the foreclosure anyway.

* National Impact: The decision is expected

to establish a national standard for how takings doctrine applies in
forced-sale contexts, potentially forcing states to reform their tax
foreclosure statutes to prevent "windfalls" to governments and investors.

SCOTUSblog +3

The case was heard by the Supreme Court on February 25,
2026.

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should not be taken to represent the commentor's position or opinion in any
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--=_8bd78c0626b575dbe59e0125b209d009
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8

<p>1.<span style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">  In r=
egards to elderly who cannot pay:  Illinois seniors (65+) who cannot p=
ay property taxes can utilize the Senior Citizens Real Estate Tax Deferral =
Program, which acts as a loan against their home to pay taxes. Additional r=
elief includes the Senior Citizen Assessment Freeze (income  $65,=
000-$75,000+) and the Senior Citizens Homestead Exemption, which reduce tax=
liability. </span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">2. In regards=
to establishing the FMV each state has their own rules.  E.g, The Flo=
rida Constitution's<span style=3D"color: #0a0a0a;"> (Article VII, &sec=
t;4) limits annual increases in the assessed value of homestead-exempt prop=
erties to a maximum of 3% or the percentage change in the Consumer Price In=
dex (CPI), whichever is lower. This cap applies to the assessed value, not =
the market value.</span></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Then Californ=
ia's Proposition 13 (passed in 1978) is a law that strictly limits how much=
property taxes can increase on homes and commercial properties in Californ=
ia. It acts as a cap, protecting homeowners from sky-high tax bills when th=
eir home’s market value shoots up. The Cap: Your assessed value =
(the value used to calculate tax) cannot increase by more than 2% per year,=
even if your house doubles in value on the market.</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Caroline Zoes=
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">On Sat, 28 Ma=
r 2026 10:22:26 -0400, lfielding <lewette....@lfieldinglaw.com> =
wrote:</span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; mar=
gin-left: 5px; width: 100%;">
<div dir=3D"auto">Interesting.  Brookings and Tax Foundation state tha=
t taxes as a US percentage of property values range from .5 to 1.0 percent =
with outlier states like NJ at 2 percent.  In any event no state would=
permit property tax arrears to accumulate so  much that the amount ex=
ceeds more than 5 percent of property value.   The issue here is wheth=
er government should act appropriately in auctioning off property so as to =
not wreak injustice and destroy whatever equity is left after auction.&nbsp=
;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto">States are considering lowering property values due to ow=
ners incomes being unable to absorb increased property taxes thereby forcin=
g them to sell or move.  </div>
<div><br />
<div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
<div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Sat, Mar 28, 2026 at 9:42=E2=80=AF=
AM SM A <<a href=3D"mailto:cps...@gmail.com">cps...@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-le=
ft: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir=3D"auto">But your county is not necessarily the standard for the r=
est of the country. There are for example some states which do not impose i=
ncome taxes on individuals, so other sources of revenue represent different=
percentages of costs. Other states may impose ad valorem taxes on personal=

property. Sources of revenue and their percentages are all over the map.

<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto">In other words, one size does not fit all.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto">In my county, the elected officials now are getting aroun=
d to consideration of long standing state standards that provide relief for=
hardships, but give each county discretion. Sadly, the help has been there=
for legitimate folks but their elected representatives have failed to adop=
t them. Should not need scotus to remedy that reality.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Without knowing ALL the laws governing all levels of alle=
ged hardships, and scotus does not, then again the generalities do not, imo=
, match the actual realities. I ssay scotus does not because there is a gla=
ring absence of amicus briefs representing this state or others in the sout=
h.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Sheila Anderson</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
</div>
<br />
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Mar 27, 2026, 7:06 PM lfieldi=
ng <<a href=3D"mailto:lewette....@lfieldinglaw.com">lewette.fieldin=
g...@lfieldinglaw.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-le=
ft: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir=3D"auto">Property taxes are a small percentage of the FMV of the p=
roperty; so that in the event of a natural disaster prior to the sale, the =
remaining land value will satisfy the municipality’s lien.   In =
the that the sale doesn’t satisfy the debt, the owner remains obligat=
ed for the balance due.  </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto">In my county annual property taxes are less than  1 =
percent of the FMV.    I’m not sure why anyone would believ=
e that the loss of property and a home is “gaming the system” p=
articularly as property taxes are a small percentage of property value.&nbs=
p; It seems that governmental actions should be fair and equitable as much =
as reasonably possible and not a device to punish citizens with the loss of=
any equity in the home for non-payment of relatively small amounts.  =
That is what happened to the plaintiff in the Supreme  Court cas=
e. </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div><br />
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Mar 27, 2026 at 9:37=E2=80=AF=
AM SM A <<a href=3D"mailto:cps...@gmail.com">cps...@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; bo=
rder-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; border-l=
eft-color: #cccccc;">
<div dir=3D"auto">There are some other factors. Not all owners are older or=
impoverished. Some are quite capable but trying to get away with gaming th=
e system or profit more than others or simply ignoring notices. 
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto">BUT there also is the reality that someone else may have =
to pay to cover the deficit. What if govt acquires title and the property i=
s destroyed before it can be sold. Hurricane, tornado, fire come to mind. W=
ho pays then?  Why can't the delinquent owner sell it themselves and s=
pare govt the expense of covering its budget so we - you, me, all of us - c=
ontinue to receive the services we rely upon and pay for? </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto">What about irs liens, bankruptcy courts, mortgages?e ques=
tion is whether the </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto">IMO the real impacts are more widespread and complicated =
than advocated in the argument I read. </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto">So as a former native New Yorker hopefully with some of t=
hat mindset still, I  question why scotus took the case in the first p=
lace. But then many of their decisions open Pandora's box.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Sheila Anderson</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
</div>
<br />
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Mar 26, 2026, 7:57 PM lfieldi=
ng <<a href=3D"mailto:lewette....@lfieldinglaw.com">lewette.fieldin=
g...@lfieldinglaw.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; bo=
rder-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; border-l=
eft-color: #cccccc;">
<div dir=3D"auto">Unsure how having one’s home sold at a foreclosure =
sale is a “free lunch”.  If the property is unsaleable in =
the open market, the appraisals will reflect that reality with a very low a=
ppraisal price. The costs of the foreclosure including the appraisal will b=
e paid by the foreclosure proceeds.  And at least in the municipalitie=
s I am familiar with it is hardly a “quick” sale taking at leas=
t 18 months to complete. </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto">The owner doesn’t benefit by a forced sale by the m=
unicipality.  Nor are real estate taxes a “loan”, they can=
go up and increase for any reason.  Non payment of taxes are typicall=
y associated with older owners who have no mortgage and are either improver=
ished  or senile; and I am unsure why it is necessary to punish t=
hose who are unfortunate enough to lose their homes because of poverty, sen=
ility or illness.     The municipality will get the taxes as=
well as penalties and interest so that it will not lose any funds by makin=
g an effort to sell the property at fair market value. </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div><br />
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Mar 20, 2026 at 12:15=E2=80=
=AFPM <<a href=3D"mailto:mus...@mc.net">mus...@mc.net</a>> wrote:</=
div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; bo=
rder-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; border-l=
eft-color: #cccccc;">
<p>Agreed.</p>
<hr />
<p>On Fri, 20 Mar 2026 11:28:38 -0400, SM A <<a href=3D"mailto:cps1jra@g=
mail.com">cps...@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px; border-left-width: 2px; border-left=
-style: solid; margin-left: 5px; width: 100%; border-left-color: #1010ff;">
<div dir=3D"ltr">So govt is NOT deliberately going after folks any more tha=
n lenders are. I agree with someone who said, if scotus finds for the plain=
tiff, no one will ever have to "sell" their property ever again. If they wa=
nt to cash out, or move, or dispose of it, all they will need to do is stop=
paying their taxes and wait. I doubt the Realtors and the title companies =
and everyone else who is invested in the transmission of real estate in a b=
usiness context will like that hypothetical. There are many consequences to=
the whole idea of what I consider to be a "free lunch" not to mention&nbsp=
;that it could very well bankrupt a gift so there go all the services=
=2E IMO taxes are like loans - you get an ongoing benefit. And if you do no=
t like how the benefit is provided or the cost, you can vote against the de=
cision makers, and you can run for office, and you can rally other folks to=
do the same. The current system is not without recourse. But if you buy so=
mething, imo, ethics 101 suggests you ought to pay for it, and not be entit=
led to benefit from your failure to uphold your part of the bargain. 
<div> </div>
<div>SMA</div>
</div>
<br />
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Mar 20, 2026 at 10:39=E2=80=
=AFAM lfielding <<a href=3D"mailto:lewette....@lfieldinglaw.com">le=
wette.f...@lfieldinglaw.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; bo=
rder-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; border-l=
eft-color: #cccccc;">
<div dir=3D"auto">Appraisals can and are typically  “averaged&rd=
quo; by lenders. Use of appraisals would be an approximation of “fair=
ness” and an equitable outcome.  This is not difficult to implem=
ent by any state or municipality.  Why should the government deliberat=
ely set out to be an instrument of inequity and injustice when the recipien=
ts have done nothing more than fail to pay taxes through inadvertence or se=
nility or poverty?  </div>
<div><br />
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Mar 19, 2026 at 8:13=E2=80=AF=
PM SM A <<a href=3D"mailto:cps...@gmail.com">cps...@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; bo=
rder-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; border-l=
eft-color: #cccccc;">
<div dir=3D"auto">The other comment was: "put 4 appraisers in a room, and y=
ou will get 4 different opinions of value all of which will be correct".&nb=
sp;
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto">That said one of the comments I read in something was an =
objection to auctions.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto">I liked the NY brief. </div>
<div dir=3D"auto"> </div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Sheila Anderson, former New Yorker.</div>
</div>
<br />
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Mar 19, 2026, 7:55 PM 'Lewett=
e Fielding' via nyclarealprop <<a href=3D"mailto:nyclarealprop@googlegro=
ups.com">nyclar...@googlegroups.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; bo=
rder-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; border-l=
eft-color: #cccccc;">
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 16px;">
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial;"> </div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial;" dir=3D"ltr">It would be simple for any m=
unicipality to have an appraisal of any property and set a floor for bids a=
t these auctions.  The cost of the appraisal could be added to the amo=
unt due from the owner.  The auction floor could be a price within 15%=
of the FMV of the appraisal.  This would ensure fairness. </div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial;" dir=3D"ltr"> </div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial;" dir=3D"ltr"> To be frank, most fail=
ures to pay real estate taxes are attributable to older homeowners without =
mortgages (banks step in to pay the taxes prior to foreclosure).  I re=
call a matter in which a 90 year old owner lost her home in Long Island due=
to dementia.  And, another case where the home was a seasonal second =
home and the owner overlooked a bill for fire services (billed separately f=
rom real estate taxes) which was sent to the second home address- also in N=
Y State. </div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial;"> </div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_-1662406713512247773m_-7445247539216032121m_-25279891861185183=
97m_-1618925149136907311m_6983417629892590622m_4742804859646035213m_1016828=
416674277825m_5642714715036955669ydpe187a01yahoo_quoted_4183842928">
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 16px;">
<div style=3D"font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial; color: #26282a;">
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial;">On Wednesday, March 18, 2026 at 11:14:31=
AM EDT, SM A <<a style=3D"font-family: Arial;" href=3D"mailto:cps1jra@g=
mail.com">cps...@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-size: 13px; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: s=
olid; padding-left: 8px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 8px; font-family: Arial; bo=
rder-left-color: #cccccc; color: #26282a;">
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial;"> </div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial;"> </div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial;">
<div id=3D"m_-1662406713512247773m_-7445247539216032121m_-25279891861185183=
97m_-1618925149136907311m_6983417629892590622m_4742804859646035213m_1016828=
416674277825m_5642714715036955669ydpe187a01yiv2687472268" style=3D"font-fam=
ily: Arial;">
<div style=3D"font-family: Arial;">Just had chat with someone who does not =
want to be identified. "They" said two things immediately. 1 if this case f=
inds for Pung it would make it possible for any owner who wants to cash out=
to simply stop paying their taxes. And 2 the Pung argument could really me=

ss up things in bankruptcy courts.

d wrap up scotus and deliver to anyone who wants them, I would.

y, on bidders at certificate auctions?

SM A

unread,

Mar 28, 2026, 3:32:41 PM (8 days ago) Mar 28

to nyclar...@googlegroups.com

I have three reactions. 1 in addition to ad valorem taxes, which have some statutory caps, there are non ad valorem taxes which have no caps and can be adopted here by whim of county commissioners. In my specific bills, the non ad valorem amounts are higher than the ad valorem amounts, but that might be influenced by the impression the local assessor keeps my ad valorem "market" value low to keep me from appealing because I know too much and can upset the script in front of a hearing officer. The non ad valorem cannot be appealed because it is not based upon value. Both the ad valorem and non ad valorem are liens.

2 if I had choice of selling my property or losing it in a foreclosure, I think I would sell. And I hope my advisors, friends and family would encourage that decision.

3 . In my subdivision, a house was acquired by an investor who did not pay the tax bills during brief period of ownership. He sold to someone else around 2 years ago and she had not paid either. No financing was involved in either transaction so both escaped demands by a lender. Currently there were 3 years of unpaid amounts. Local tax collector sent out a courtesy letter saying certificate holder, #2 in line, was about to file for tax deed. Current owner soon thereafter paid the oldest of the outstanding bills, but not the one pending application, at least not yet. NOTE- she had paid cash for that property.

The oldest certificate holder in that line is the widow of a local attorney who owns and resides in a compound of 3 residences, with total value in millions. But while she has assets worth many millions, they are not readily liquid, so it is taking time for her situation to adjust. The compound was for sale initially, but now is off the market so seems as if some liquidity has been achieved. But it was clear she was not filing for tax deed on the delinquent property in my area.

That delinquent owner was able to pay cash to buy, was able to pay off at least one of three back years, and you want to give her extra benefit? Hopefully this remains a free country, and you can if you choose, but I find the idea before scotus to be appalling.

MY LAST WORD ON THIS SUBJECT!

Sheila Anderson

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/nyclarealprop/CAEpjUvvm%2BUBgOQg1uRdq6J44Gvimv_ucWVNRNYDTR9%2B5EmFRaw%40mail.gmail.com.

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