Java Houses Adopting Node.js

[Adam Davies]

Hi All,

Does anybody know of case studies or have direct experience of a ecommerce companies which have been using Java for many years converting over to node.js?

The reason why I ask is because we at Screwfix.com are going through a process of looking at new technologies and defineing our strategy over the next 5 years for so, and node keeps coming up in conversions. However, there is little in-house knowledge of node usage for our particular company size and profile.

If anyone can provide a steer it would be really appreciated.

Thanks
Adam

[Angel Java Lopez]

Maybe, a case study is PayPal

https://www.paypal-engineering.com/2013/11/22/node-js-at-paypal/

They created Kraken

http://krakenjs.com/

more info

http://www.infoworld.com/t/javascript/paypal-and-netflix-cozy-nodejs-237593

According to PayPal speaker, at JsConf Montevideo 2014, some times, the business people talk about requirements, and the dev team was busy in their notebooks. When the business people ended, asked "do you take notes?" the notebook had the implemented prototype ready ;-)

Angel "Java" Lopez

@ajlopez

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[Brett Ritter]

On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 1:35 AM, Adam Davies <cleved...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Does anybody know of case studies or have direct experience of a ecommerce companies which have been using Java for many years converting over to node.js?

I know Walmart moved their services layer from Java (Wicket) to Node, and they seem pretty happy and have done a number of talks on the topic.

Googling "walmart node" gave me a ton of links, some of which may be helpful to you.

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[Trygve Lie]

PayPal springs to mind:
https://www.paypal-engineering.com/2013/11/22/node-js-at-paypal/

Txx

[Luc Renambot]

There's a youtube video on Groupon switching from ruby to node.js

Luc

[Adam Davies]

OK, thanks for all the replys.

I can understand why Walmart dropped Wickets for Node.js as wickets is a pretty inefficient technology for the modern era (Java tags embedded in HTML and mapping to java objects on the server).

Does anyone how node is used in their architecture? i.e. is it just a front controller serving html pages which use Ajax to connect to Java services, or is it much more baked in than that?

The same question apply to paypal. Are they re-writing everything in JS or using node to front services?


Thanks again.

[Brett Ritter]

On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 6:38 AM, Adam Davies <cleved...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I can understand why Walmart dropped Wickets for Node.js as wickets is a pretty inefficient technology for the modern era (Java tags embedded in HTML and mapping to java objects on the server).

As I mentioned, it was their SERVICES layer that changed.  I'm assuming the links you can google cover in more detail.  I don't believe they've swapped out the front end at all.

[greelgorke]

In his presentation here http://nodeday.com/ Eran Hammer mentioned, that their node stack handles their complete mobile traffic.

[Adam Davies]

From this video on the Node site, http://nodejs.org/video/, tEran Hammer, Sr Architect at Walmart, they kept their Java Services layer, and used node just for serving web pages. He described Node as the "api layer...a sweet spot for an orchestration layer...a glorified proxy...taking APIs from different teams and bringing them together."

This architecture uses a hybrid approach where Node is used for orchestration, and Java is used for backed business services.

What I'm hoping to find is a large established company that has used Node through out the stack. Top to bottom.

On Thursday, 26 June 2014 09:35:22 UTC+1, Adam Davies wrote:

[zladuric]

On Thursday, June 26, 2014 10:35:22 AM UTC+2, Adam Davies wrote:

Hi All,

Does anybody know of case studies or have direct experience of a ecommerce companies which have been using Java for many years converting over to node.js?

LinkedIn is also using Node.js in parts of their stack. Here's the first Google link:

http://venturebeat.com/2011/08/16/linkedin-node/

For what it's worth, I have also heard Jeff from Paypal at this years' MLOC-JS conference. As I've understood it, they're using Node as a web tier, the various heavy-weight backend is still handled in Java and others.

But the takeaway for me there was that they "won over Java on the business arguments, not technical" - meaning much much faster iterations over the old Java flow and ability to respond to (business) requests and implement them daily, almost hourly, over weeks it would take in Java.

There are a few articles of how their prototype was developed in paralell with a Java team. What I remember from the talk is that Java team had 7 people, Node.js had 3, and the Node team was done sooner and their code had much more throughput and was even a bit faster then Java, in what they used it for.

-- 

Zlatko

[Adam Davies]

Seems like the state of the art is to stick with Java services on the backend and use Node as a page server to server HTML pages content, so that Node is a kind of front-controller or proxy.

On Thursday, 26 June 2014 09:35:22 UTC+1, Adam Davies wrote:

[henrique matias]

That doesn't sound like state of art, specially on the node.js user list ! 

Why would you choose "Java services" over "Node services" ?

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[Zlatko Đurić]

On 04.07.2014 14:58, Adam Davies wrote:
> Seems like the state of the art is to stick with Java services on the
> backend and use Node as a page server to server HTML pages content, so
> that Node is a kind of front-controller or proxy.
>
>

In a way. Node can do a lot of work and it can handle a whole lot of
connections, as well as route all those connections between Java
services, databases and other stuff.

The thing where it is not the best match is heavy-duty processing. So,
if you're serving images or have a webshop or something that connects to
many different warehouses to pull data from, Node is great. If you're
doing video encoding and recoding, then yep, leave that part to Java.


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Zlatko

[Brett Ritter]

I suspect that far more often the choice is driven by existing skillsets and staff and legacy code.  Where I work, the Java-side is well-staffed and running fairly well, so moving that crew to be back end services only is a good use of our existing codebase and people.  Ergo, Node works better for our front-end than back-end - not because of _node_, but because of our current resources and legacy code.  I suspect this is a common pattern, so you'll see the "industry" do it often.  That doesn't say that Node is inappropriate for services (nor does it say it is appropriate for services).

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[Issac Roth]

Sorry for the late reply here Adam.

We (StrongLoop) are working with four of the very largest ecommerce companies, all big Java shops, who are converting pieces of their systems over to node.js. Plus many smaller ecommerce companies. There are also a variety of banks with heavy Java history doing serious projects in Node. You have probably read about Walmart converting more and more of their infrastructure but they are far from alone it’s just that others are not deployed yet in the way that Paypal, Walmart, Yahoo, Docusign, eBay, Taobao, Uber, Groupon, beats, Dow Jones, ADP, Box, Sony, etc are. 

I’m not aware of any large ecommerce site running entirely on Node.js - I don’t think anyone has done a ground-up rewrite to go exclusively JS. 

Issac

Issac Roth - @ijroth

Node has arrived. Infographic

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[rtweed]

Something I don't remember having seen anywhere is some understanding of why these Java migratees (if that's a word!) decided to look elsewhere in the first place - ie what were the pain points that the business saw in their Java infrastructure that warranted an examination of how and where Node.js could potentially help.  

In large corporates such as Walmart, the maxim "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" tends to reign supreme, so I'd be interested to hear about what was broke for them to be bothered to look elsewhere beyond Java.

So far it seems that it's mainly a recognition that having front-end folks writing JavaScript and back-end folks writing in Java creates an inefficient and artificial boundary.  It also seems that the broader benefits (performance, productivity, etc) of using Node.js emerge once the initial tests and evaluation exercises are performed.  

Perhaps it's also because these organisations try to keep abreast of new technologies and assess if and how they might benefit them, and, in the case of Node.js, realised, once they played about with it in earnest, that it had potential benefits over aspects of their Java infrastructure that they previously hadn't considered as "broke".

Anyway, I'd be interested to read any thoughts on this angle

Rob

[Sam Roberts]

On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 3:09 AM, rtweed <rob....@gmail.com> wrote:
> In large corporates such as Walmart, the maxim "if it ain't broke, don't fix
> it" tends to reign supreme, so I'd be interested to hear about what was
> broke for them to be bothered to look elsewhere beyond Java.

Mobile.

Existing code works well enough for low-latency high speed networks to
web browsers, but mobile apps have high latencies. This means MVC with
pages rendered on server for each request have poor usability. This
forces rework of the apps so they hit JSON APIs, when necessary, and
render as much as possible on the device. This is a big architectural
change. They could do with java, but when you do a big change like
that, maybe its time to review how you do things currently, and pull
in new tech. And since Node.js rocks... this is the time! :-)

Some companies start with a parallel node infrastructure for just
mobile, connected to enterprise backend data sources, then after its
proved workable for mobile, maybe they rework the main web sites, too,
to adopt the same approaches (or maybe do so very slowly, slowly
replacing sub-sections of the main web site with the node-based
servers that were first developed for mobile).

http://loopback.io/ is squarely targeted at this use-case, mobile apps
with enterprise back-end data sources, though you and I may just call
this "modern web app architecture".

Cheers,
Sam

[George Snelling]

+1

Mobile apps yearn to pass JSON back and forth to a resty server that fronts your core business engine.  Node is a pretty good tool for building a JSON-serving glue teir between your core engine and your mobile clients. 

Many java and c++ devs wrinkle their noses at  javascript.  After trying node, some decide that the crazy-fast productivity outweighs the crazy-ugly flaws of the language.  Some don't.  It's a team culture thing.

-g