New to dekatrons looking for advice.

[Thomas Kummer]

I really would like to build Three Neurons Dekatron do-hickie kit, and I would really like to use the OG-3 or OG-7, as I like the Argon look. However, I have heard that they’re not the most reliable, is this true? Also, I have noticed that the neon filled ones such as the OG-4 glow brighter, in videos. Do they glow brighter in real life, or is this just an effect from cameras. I was wanting to stick with a Russian Dekatron, as they are cheaper, are ones made in the West more reliable? Also, I need it to be shipped to my address in the states in 10 days, I work on oil rigs as a mud logger, and will get to go home in 4-5 days, and will be off for 6-10 days. I would buy one on eBay, but none of them would arrive in the required time. Does anyone know a seller that sells them in the US, or would anyone on here in the US being willing to sell me one, that will work with the kit? The kit requires a bi directional Dekatron with at least two guides and an octal base.

[Jon]

Hi Thomas,

OK, you are teetering on the edge of a very bad potential addiction by wanting to dabble with dekatrons... :)

I can't offer any help on the shipping point, but with regards to the tubes themselves:

1. Orange (neon-based) dekatrons are much brighter in reality than the purple ones. Depending on how you're operating the tube, you may struggle to see the purple glow from distance in a brightly lit room, though they can be OK in subdued lighting.
2. Reliability of tubes. The issue I think you're referring to is the observation that high-speed dekatrons have an unfortunate habit of dying in storage - even a true NIB tube can be stone dead on arrival. Low-speed dekatrons don't have this problem and generally speaking are tough reliable tubes. The difference is primarily (but not exclusively) down to the gas mixes being used. Most purple-glowing tubes are in the high-speed category, including your OG3 and OG7. So yes, they can be dodgy, so ideally buy from a seller who has tested the actual tube they're selling you, not just relying on the fact that the factory tested them before they were boxed up 50 years ago.
3. Subject to the comment above, the Russian tubes are no less reliable than Western ones - ie their low speed tubes work just fine, and their high speed ones can be a lottery. Manufacturing tolerances can be less good, with the occasional wonky fitting of the base. The one area where the Western tubes do seem better is in the visibility of the glow. Many Russian tubes seem to be manufactured in a way that deposits a metal film on the inside of the glass dome at the top of the tube - I assume this is sputtered material from initial cleaning of the cathode surfaces. While Western tubes have been through a similar process, in those tubes that material tends to be confined to the outer walls of the tube, leaving the top dome clear, and therefore providing a better view of the glowing electrodes. The degree of darkening is very variable between individual tubes and can be quite significant in reducing the visible light output of the tube (which may not be that high to start with for purple-glowing tubes...). My experience on this point with OG7 is better than with OG3, and better for the variants of the tubes that have metal shells around their bases compared with the plain black Bakelite type. But don't take that as a firm rule -  ask the seller to send you a top-view picture of the actual tube you're buying and check you can see the cathode pins clearly.

Where does this net out? As a top-level practical answer, if you're fixed on having a purple glow from a readily-available cheap tube, I'd go for a metal-based OG7. If you want to maximise visibility of your do-hickie, I'd suggest one of the Ericsson GC10B family, 6802 or a well-chosen OG4. Now, if you're wanting to imbibe more deeply of the drug, there are more interesting and exotic possibilities you could explore... But the tubes get harder to find of course. :)

Cheers,

Jon.

[gregebert]

I have a Soviet-era A101 that has been spinning at 1 revolution/second 24/7 for more than 5 years, with no hint of degradation. Spin-direction should not have any effect on lifetime; mine changes direction at the top-of-the-hour.

[Jon]

As a general rule, dekatrons like to be spun. Providing you are operating them well within their anode current limits and the glow is moving around the tube they will be very happy for a long time. I do have a suspicion (that I cannot back up with data yet) that use rather than storage may be the best strategy for keeping the high speed tubes alive...

Jon.

[Tidak Ada]

Does anybody know the difference between specs of a EZ10A and EZ10B.

EZ10A is known to run until 500KHz, whereas the EZ10B should run up to 1MHz.

 

The EZ10A has a kind of Penning mixture; EZ10B is said to be filled with hydrogen (very triggy in aging ! ).

 

For so far my knowledge.

Reading in Dance’s book I learned that they are NOT interchangeable in voltages and currents. EZ10B is described well by Dance, but thee EZ10A is only mentioned with the warning. So my question is what are their specs…..

 

I have three of each of them plus three sockets. Plan is to make a divider to run down a 4MHz OCXO to frequencies of 4, 2. 1, ½; ¼ Hz to feed my clock project.

 

eric

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[Thomas Kummer]

Thank you, for the input. I think I’m gonna go with the OG-4. Are the metal or Bakelite base ones better, for the OG-4. The metal ones of OG series seem to have an earlier date on them, if that is the date I’m looking at. That could be a problem if I wanted a purple / blue Dekatron, but with the OG-4, the date shouldn’t matter that much I would think. Does the darkening of the top of the tube matter with the OG-4, or is the neon bright enough?

[Jon]

On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 10:50:19 PM UTC, Thomas Kummer wrote:

Thank you, for the input. I think I’m gonna go with the OG-4. Are the metal or Bakelite base ones better, for the OG-4. The metal ones of OG series seem to have an earlier date on them, if that is the date I’m looking at. That could be a problem if I wanted a purple / blue Dekatron, but with the OG-4, the date shouldn’t matter that much I would think.

Just to be clear, my statement that it is a storage effect shouldn't be taken to imply that later date code high-speed tubes are more likely to be OK than earlier dated ones. That might be the case, but the data I have don't provide a big enough sample to test that idea. All of these tubes have been in storage for >25 years as an absolute minimum (most of them 40+ or 50+), and so there's been plenty of time for stuff to happen to all of them. There's lots of death observed among late dated tubes as well as early dated ones. Don't worry about OG-4 - I suspect they'd outlive us all!

 

Does the darkening of the top of the tube matter with the OG-4, or is the neon bright enough?

I've seen examples where it does make a significant difference even on OG-4 or A101. But obviously you're starting from a higher light output from the neon-based tubes, so it's less of a factor than for the purple dekatrons - you've more tolerance in the system. I'm sure it'll be just fine if you start off with an OG-4, and if you want to upgrade later to a 6802 or GC10B, it'll just be a matter of getting the tube and reworking the jumper wires to account for the different pinout.

Enjoy...

Jon.

[Thomas Kummer]

Thank you, for the advice. I did find a seller who can get the tubes to me in the required time, but as of now my only options are OG-3(Bakelite), OG-4(metal), and OG-4(Bakelite). I think I’m gonna go with the OG-4(metal), and ask the seller to send one that has a lesser amount of darkening. As for the addiction aspect of Dekatrons, thanks for the concern, but I can control it. lol, I definitely can’t, I’ve already spent about $1,000 on Nixies since I got into the habit in July. Hopefully Dekatrons aren’t more addictive than Nixies for me.

[Jon]

On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 5:59:50 PM UTC, Tidak Ada wrote:

Reading in Dance’s book I learned that they are NOT interchangeable in voltages and currents. EZ10B is described well by Dance, but thee EZ10A is only mentioned with the warning. So my question is what are their specs…..

 

Sorry Eric, I don't have any definitive data on EZ10A. Piecing together info from several articles and looking at the component values in various circuits, I think the typical anode current for EZ10A is 1.3mA with a maintaining voltage of 265V. The EZ10B typically operates at 1.5mA, which explains the note of caution in Dance (the same warning is also given by Elesta in their documentation on EZ10B).

I believe the detailed information on EZ10A is contained in Elesta's Technische Mitteilungen Nr 14 from 1960, but I've not yet managed to find a paper copy or a scan of that document. If anyone has that info, please get in touch!

Jon.

 

[Tidak Ada]

Hi Jon,

 

Thanks for your efforts !

Anyhow, That Vmax of 265V makes sense as well as Imax = 1.3mA does.

I will also look around and of course I will share all information.

 

eric

 

Van: neoni...@googlegroups.com [mailto:neoni...@googlegroups.com] Namens Jon
Verzonden: vrijdag 2 november 2018 11:56
Aan: neonixie-l
Onderwerp: Re: [SPAM] [neonixie-l] Re: New to dekatrons looking for advice.

 

,

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[Tidak Ada]

Hi Jon,

As promised !
Jogi's Rörenbude has made an experimental datasheet of the EZ10A.
I added some other data, partly from Dieter Wächter.

I think it's all very useful.

eric

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: neoni...@googlegroups.com [mailto:neoni...@googlegroups.com] Namens Thomas Kummer
Verzonden: donderdag 1 november 2018 23:50
Aan: neonixie-l
Onderwerp: [neonixie-l] Re: New to dekatrons looking for advice.

Thank you, for the input. I think I’m gonna go with the OG-4. Are the metal or Bakelite base ones better, for the OG-4. The metal ones of OG series seem to have an earlier date on them, if that is the date I’m looking at. That could be a problem if I wanted a purple / blue Dekatron, but with the OG-4, the date shouldn’t matter that much I would think. Does the darkening of the top of the tube matter with the OG-4, or is the neon bright enough?

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[Jon]

Thanks for sharing Eric. I'm not quite sure how Jogi would manage to determine the max / min range for anode current experimentally, as I'd expect that to be worked out statistically from the behaviour of a large set of tubes with a target operating life in mind - feels like the kind of thing that only the manufacturer could do. Until we get more definitive data, I'd definitely keep the current on the low side as that's less likely to damage the tube.

Jon.

[Dekatron42]

A few years ago I restored an EZ10/EZ10A/EZ10B tester, see here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/neonixie-l/elesta$20tester%7Csort:date/neonixie-l/z_XVbXeB4ks/w7njlQvKsXoJ

The currents stated on the tester for EZ10/EZ10A is 1.1mA minimum, 1.3mA nominal and 1.6mA maximum, for the EZ10B the currents stated is 1.3mA minimum, 1.6mA nominal and 1.8mA maximum for tubes to pass the test.

The counting speed is about 200kHz for the EZ10, 300kHz for the EZ10A and just above 1MHz for the EZ10B.

The voltages for the EZ10 are (somewhat different currents from the ones stated on the tester):

Kenndaten und Betriebsdaten:	min	normal	max
Zündspannung Kathoden-Anode	260	320	450	V
Brennspannung Kathoden-Anode	250	280	300	V
Anodenspeisespannung	500	560	—	V
Anodenstrom	0.9	1.3	1.7	mA
Anodenwiderstand	180	220	—	kΩ
Spitzenspannung der Eingangsimpulse	60	80	150	V
Anstiegsgeschwindigkeit der Eingangsimpulse	—	—	108	V/S
Dauer von Impulsen und Pausen	ca. 2*10-6	—	—	s
Negative Spannung für Nullstellung oder Vorwahl	—-	120	—	V
Widerstand in Zuleitung zu Hilfskathoden	—	47	—	kΩ
Ausgangswiderstände in Kathodenzuleitungen	0	6.8	6.8	kΩ
Ausgangsspannung	—	7	—	V

and for the EZ10A & EZ10B (somewhat different currents from the ones stated on the tester):

Kenndaten und Betriebsdaten		EZ10A			EZ 10B
		min	norm	max	min	norm	max
Zündspannung Kathoden-Anode	VZA	260	320	450	300	380	480	V
Brennspannung Kathoden-Anode	VB	250	270	300	280	300	330	V
Anodenspeisespannung	V0	470	560		500	580	—	V
Anodenstrom	IA	1.0	1.3	1.7	1.2	1.5	1.9	mA
Anodenwiderstand	Ra	—	220	—	—	180	—	kΩ
Spitzenspannung der Eingangsimpulse	Ve	60	80	150	60	100	150	V
Anstiegsgeschwindigkeit der Eingangsimpulse		—	—	108	—	—	109	V/S
Dauer von Impulsen und Pausen	ca.	2*10-6	—	—	5*10-7	—	—	s
Rücksteil- oder Vorwahlspannung	VR	—	120	—	—	120	—	V
Widerstand in Zuleitung zu Hilfskathoden	RB	22	—	47	—	—	—	kΩ
Kathodenwiderstände	Rk	0	6.8	6.8	0	6.8	10	kΩ
Spitzenspannung der Ausgangsimpulse	va	—	7	—	—	7	—	V
Farbe des Glimmlichtes			gelb			blau

However to reach 200kHz, 300kHz and 1MHz you will need to adjust the pulse voltage and also monitor the anode current so that it remains withing the specs, otherwise they will not count correctly.

I have run all three types of dekatrons up to their maximum counting speed and driving them with MPSA42 and the correct voltages while maintaining the anode current within limits is no problem, just make sure that you have fast rise time on the leading edge of the pulse and the specified trailing edge a bit slower so that the counting works within parameters.

I do have the datasheets, but I am not able to share those as I have been specifically asked not to by the gentleman I got them from - I have asked for permission once more yesterday to share them and I will do so if I am allowed to do so.

/Martin

[Tidak Ada]

Of couse, that is the richt way. Anyhow, Jogi is well known for this things.

Take a view on his site, OK it’s in German, but Google translat could help, despite Google’s aggressive information colleting.

 

eric

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[Thomas Kummer]

Here is an update on the Doo-Hicky. I went with a metal base OG-4, cherry wood for the case, was able to get one from Amazon Prime, and all in all very happy with it. This was probably the coolest, most retro-tech, and completely useless thing I could build for less than $50, but still pretty damn cool. My only complaint about the kit is that the 12V jack and the button are not adjacent to another, this would allow for a more minimalist case design, rather than having to put legs on it with the two components on opposite sides of the board. However, this is a mild inconvenience, and more of me just finding something to complain about. Overall, I really liked this project and especially liked the outcome.

Thank you again for the advice on it!!!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17J0zfseOXXUNMYcdAAXAiQiNFqQ8jnb8/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lSIMnzE8mtR4WORX7GfpvDwT44jqSjwr/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wOI2a7XKHUDZAXosMfr5qyRKsPuZlLLt/view?usp=sharing